Talk:Musso & Frank Grill

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Hi everyone, shouldn't be mentioned in this article that the fictional character Harry Bosch and his partners from Michael Connelly's novels (City of Bones (Michael Connelly novel)) visits recurrently this dinner place?

Sorry for my poor English.

--190.49.188.51 (talk) 02:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)Javier Stowics, Argentina
 * Interesting that you bring this up. I came to the Talk section to specifically question the appropriateness, without citation, of quoting directly from Michael Connelly's book Trunk_Music_(novel) in this article. Specifically, from Connelly's book: "In its heyday it had been a popular destination for Hollywood's elite." Since the book was published in 1997 – nearly 4 years before Wikipedia existed and 10 before this entry was created – there's no question as to which direction the plagiarism flowed. Gramby (talk) 05:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * While that smacks of the trite writing style used by many to describe history, and could easily have been made up by most anyone as it's barely a sentence fragment - I have re-worded it. Lexlex (talk) 04:11, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Video game/pop culture material
One third of the article about this historic, essential, Los Angeles restaurant is about movies filmed in it and appearances in video games. It is absolutely unselective and adds nothing to the reader's knowledge of the restaurant. Are we going to have a list of every movie, TV show, and video game this restaurant appears in? Because there are hundreds if not thousands. What is the point? Let us be guided by WP:POPCULTURE for the sake of the reader.&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

New discussion about pop culture
I'm fine with this new material, but do you think there's any way we could not call the section that? Otherwise it's going to be a perpetual cruft-magnet with video games and all kinds of nonsense. There are a few important appearances of the place in novels as well (important as defined by being mentioned in secondary sources). Perhaps we could find a way to work this material into the history section?&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:20, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok- what other titles would you suggest? I would have no problem including it in the history section and also agree with you that including video games etc. is not optimal. Ed Wood, Oceans Eleven, and Greenberg all register as culturally significant works that play a role in the restaurant's identity and I would also like to add the restaurant's presence in "What Makes Sammy Run?" by Budd Schulberg. Since the article is now longer, including this should not detract from any other material. Which other films or books would you like to include? Thanks.&mdash; Baseballtom 1:30 18 January 2014

What Makes Sammy Run is good; I didn't remember that it was in there. It's also in The Day of the Locust, which was probably planned and to some extent written in the bar there. I can't find a source for that right now, though. My main concern is that we stick to works where the presence of the restaurant is noted in secondary sources rather than using the works as primary source references for the presence of the restaurant.&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 15:06, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be best to include both (and possibly The Big Sleep?). What Makes Sammy Run is on google books if that helps. Though secondary sources are preferable, wouldn't the primary source be sufficient here since all of these works clearly qualify as classics? Also, are there any other significant works in film/literature worth considering? &mdash; Baseballtom 4:20 18 January 2014


 * What worries me about using the book itself as a source is that the place is mentioned in probably hundreds of notable books, and there's no particular reason to list all of them. It might be a useful filter to use only mentions of the place that have been singled out as notable mentions via inclusion in secondary sources.  That's my thinking, anyway.&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:07, 19 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Understandable but I don't think it should be a problem as long as it's clear that it isn't a comprehensive list and if any books mentioned are classics with wikipedia pages. I think it's very unlikely that many more works will be mentioned on the page in the future. For now, I think What Makes Sammy Run and The Day of the Locust should be sufficient and would be productive additions to the page. I'll add them now with citations. If anyone subsequently adds lesser known works to the page, the works can be reviewed and potentially removed. &mdash; Baseballtom 11:46 18 January 2014


 * Your work is good. I'm happy to see that Schulberg calls it Musso's, just like I do myself.  I haven't used that as search term yet, so maybe more to come! I think between us we've really improved this article.&mdash; alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 05:08, 19 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I've reintroduced an 'In popular culture' section. Cruft was gathering at the bottom of the article in any case (I've just deleted some). I don't think putting this information in the history section will stop that happening. In fact, it has already lead to duplication with the new Tarantino film being mentioned twice. Meticulo (talk) 15:35, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Unusual name
"Musso & Frank" seems like a bit of a strange choice - one man's surname and the other man's given name. You'd think it would be either "Musso & Toulet" or "Joe & Frank's." I wonder if there is some explanation for it that could be included.Sylvain1972 (talk) 16:03, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I updated it with more info that clears the matter up a bit. In addition, Toulet seems to have opened the establishment with Robert Prechacq, who must have been some relation to his wife Helen (née Prechacq). Robert Prechacq seems also to have at least one restaurant in LA prior to this. I would incorporate this into the article but there is so little to go on.Sylvain1972 (talk) 16:53, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Here is some more info that could be drawn on for the history, from The Musso and Frank Grill – One of America’s Greatest and Most Historic Restaurants by Jonathon Foerstel: