Talk:Mutahharten/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Cplakidas (talk · contribs) 21:02, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Will take this on in the following days. Constantine  ✍  21:02, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * To conform with your comments on the other GA reviews, I will go through this article and add regnal dates, remove diacritics, add OCLC, ISBN, etc. and so on. Aintabli (talk) 05:26, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Removed the unnecessary diacritics. Aintabli (talk) 01:10, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Added OCLC, ISSN, etc. Aintabli (talk) 01:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Added a location map, gave the meaning of a non-English term in parentheses, and added the regnal intervals for each ruler mentioned., feel free to start the review on your part when you have time. Aintabli (talk) 02:31, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Status query
Constantine, Aintabli, where does this review stand? As far as I can tell, Constantine has not returned in the six weeks since opening this review page to actually do the review that was promised within "days", which is unfortunate, since a nomination this old stood a good chance of being picked up during the current backlog drive. Should this be put back into the pool of unreviewed nominations for the final two days of the drive, or will the review be conducted in the very near future? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:23, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I intended to do it this weekend. Constantine  ✍  21:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Review

 * GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

That's it for a first pass. Constantine  ✍  13:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose, spelling, and grammar):
 * b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (reference section):
 * b (inline citations to reliable sources):
 * c (OR):
 * d (copyvio and plagiarism):
 * (source spot-check done):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects):
 * b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):
 * b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * Lede
 * The 'Background' section is currently not present in the lede, which contravenes MOS:INTRO
 * Added a sentence about how the emirate was a vassal of the Eretnids, which is included in the Background section.
 * Clarify that he claimed independence from the Eretnids, and that Ala al-Din was an Eretnid sultan
 * Clarified.
 * is MOS:FLOWERY
 * Removed . Aintabli (talk) 15:08, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * either put this after or give a more detailed example of his relationship with the Aq Qoyunlu here
 * Chose the first option.
 * This is not supported in the main article; the first phase of the conflict is shown as ending before Timur arrived, and then continuing after Timur entered the scene.
 * Changed accordingly.
 * What is the significance of this? Also, introduce Sivas to the reader.
 * Removed that part as I now think it may be tangential.
 * this leaves the lede ending with a cliffhanger; add why and how the emirate ended.
 * Clarified. Aintabli (talk) 18:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * 'their rivals, the Qara Qoyunlu'?
 * Background
 * The section is not so much about Mutahharten's background, but of the emirate he led. Would recommend expanding the title to reflect that.
 * not enough to identify its location for people who don't know where Trebizond is. Add at least that it was located in 'northeastern Anatolia (modern Turkey)' or similar, and add that Trebizond was a Christian state.
 * Non-English terms like ahi, jizya or shahid should be italicized using the lang template, as described in MOS:FOREIGN
 * Explain the meaning of jizya
 * Introduce Abu Bakr Qutbi
 * Is 'emīr-zāda' (Ottoman) Turkish or Persian? It definitely is not modern Turkish, as -zade is distinctly Persianate.
 * I was unsure about the language of the work Ta'rīkh-i taqwīm. I am changing it to Farsi in any case.
 * who is that, and why is the coin significant?
 * who is that?
 * ✅ Aintabli (talk) 18:13, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Rise to power and war with the Eretnids
 * What is Mutahharten's relationship with Pir Husayn?
 * Unknown.
 * Gloss the khutba, and italicize per above
 * which city is meant here? The last one mentioned is Sivas.
 * Erzincan.
 * 'intercepting the reinforcements' or similar?
 * Replaced verbatim.
 * Would Emir Ordu Shah warrant a WP:REDLINK?
 * ✅ Aintabli (talk) 18:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Changed my mind. I doubt anyone will create it. I can't currently find much sources about him other than those found here.
 * First war with Kadi Burhan al-Din
 * is incorrect here; 're-imposing'?
 * Already done by.
 * Would Malik Ahmad warrant a WP:REDLINK?
 * I am reluctant. There are many such emirs as mentioned in the article, but I am unsure if I will ever be able to find enough sources and content to warrant a new article. I don't also want to add a bunch of redlinks without ever creating an article.
 * Fine by me, you know the period far better than I do. Constantine  ✍  07:34, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * is a bit cumbersome. Perhaps replace with a full sentence like 'Relations with Zannun were strengthened via a marriage alliance with Mutahharten's sister' or similar...
 * hmmm, why? He demanded the restoration of the legitimate heir, but how is this a claim of his own?
 * Muhammad was very young to rule.
 * per MOS, either 'two-thousand-strong' or '2,000-strong'
 * Done by.
 * Why, if this caused tension to peak? What did Mutahharten need to apologize for? Also, some rephrasing is in order, e.g. 'This event caused Mutahharten to change his stance, sending apologies and offering an alliance instead'.
 * Removed that part.
 * add when/how Shadgeldi was killed
 * On the battlefield.
 * suggest moving this to the start of the sentence
 * you can massacre the population of a city, not the city itself
 * Corrected.
 * 'with' is unclear here. With the assistance of the Mongol tribe of Barambay? Or did the Marambay raid on his behalf?
 * With the assistance.
 * clarify that the former was to the north (I assume), and the latter against Mutahharten.
 * close repetition; suggest replacing the first 'led' by 'commanded', if indeed Ahmad commanded these forces in person, otherwise something like 'dispatched'.
 * Oops. Had gotten tired writing this article. I changed it to "headed". Aintabli (talk) 03:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Advent of Timur
 * Introduce Timur, e.g. 'the Turco-Mongol warlord Timur', and explain why he was interested in Anatolia in the first place, i.e. what his claims were.
 * 'his' refers to Burhan al-Din, but the last person mentioned is Mutahharten
 * Mentioned Burhan al-Din again.
 * Who was an ally of Timur, Mutahharten or Barquq? 'an effort to initiate a campaign' is redundant, as the campaign came to pass. Also, what exactly does 'successful' refer to? I guess the effort, but it can be read as the campaign being successful. Perhaps smth like '...aiming to trigger a joint campaign on Sivas with the Mamluks. Mutahharten succeeded in this, and campaigned together with the Mamluks against Burhan al-Din until 1389'. But it leads to other questions as well: what was the outcome of the campaign, and why did it stop in 1389?
 * Reworded. According to the source, it lasted until when the Mamluks retreated from the region.
 * why did he turn against them? and 'following a hostile policy' does not necessarily mean warfare, but this is implied by 'ultimately overpowered', which in turn is too vague: what does it mean? Was he defeated, expelled from Erzincan, or what?
 * He turned against them after Qutlugh died. He was overpowered on the battlefield. Reworded
 * is unnecessary, you have the regnal dates there for that.
 * Removed. Aintabli (talk) 19:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Why? When? After he had gathered fresh forces? The succession of events is too abrupt here.
 * Added some more info from the source that he had prepared for a counter-attack.
 * A superior ruler secures the allegiance of his vassals; a vassal pledges or re-affirms their allegiance to their overlord.
 * Changed to "reaffirmed".
 * what does this mean?
 * My silly translation of the Turkish text. It doesn't add much to the content, so I've removed it.
 * nobody has hostile origin; replace with something like 'who was hostile to Mutahharten' or similar
 * large run-on sentence; consider splitting up.
 * 'and decimated' is redundant, as it is used here as another verb for 'massacre' (I assume he did not really decimate the populace)
 * I removed massacred, which has already been used before. The source additionally mentions that Burhan al-Din caused damage in addition to massacring the populace.
 * 'spanning' requires a from and a to, here only one location is given, but it is unclear what the territory is meant.
 * Changed "spanning" to "around".
 * last person mentioned is Burhan al-Din
 * Mentioned Mutahharten.
 * again, MOS:FLOWERY and vague to boot; what does this mean? You can also link it to the next sentence by ...until Burhan al-Din was killed by Qara Yuluk, on 14 July 1398' or similar.
 * Merged sentences and refs.
 * Relations with Trebizond and Christians
 * Appropriate link for Emirate of Haji Amir?
 * Added link.
 * Gloss kharāj
 * does not make sense here ; 'dependent upon'?
 * Replaced.
 * this is given as a known fact here, but neither it nor the emperor's daughter are previously mentioned. Perhaps 'Mutahharten's marriage to a daughter of the emperor'? Was this his only marriage?
 * Replaced verbatim. This was not his only marriage. He was also married to an Aq Qoyunlu princess.
 * A couple more suggestions, add 'Emperor' before, and qualify Panaretos as a Trapezuntine historian, otherwise the connection might be unclear to readers. Constantine  ✍  07:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ Aintabli (talk) 17:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * who is they and him here?
 * The Christian subjects.
 * smth like "Mutahharten paid Timur 9,000 aspers to have the order reversed'? And was he successful or not?
 * Changed to Mutahharten had the order reversed by paying him 9,000 aspers.
 * One more thing, link . I am unsure whether aspron or akçe is suitable here... Constantine  ✍  07:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I am also unsure, because none would exactly fit per their description in their respective article. Aintabli (talk) 17:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There are some WP:DUPLINKs, such as Empire of Trebizond, in the article
 * Removed that and a few more duplicate links. Aintabli (talk) 20:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Ottoman–Timurid conflict and death
 * 'advanced as far as...where he took Mutahharten'?
 * Already done by.
 * a brief summary of the outcome of the campaign is required here, as it gives context as to how Mutahharten was able to remain on his throne.
 * Clarified that it was a major blow to the Ottomans.
 * Still a bit vague, would suggest at least mentioning and linking the Battle of Ankara in the text; the average reader likely will not know that the main article relates to this. Constantine  ✍  07:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Linked the battle. Aintabli (talk) 17:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * what does this mean? Was Erzincan fought over by the two larger powers? Did the emirate's existence continue or was it annexed?
 * Clarified that it ceased to exist by then.
 * Family and origin
 * Much of this section is repeated earlier. The origin part I would recommend moving to where Mutahharten is first introduced. Since it associates Mutahharten with the Eretnid dynasty, it helps explain his relations with them and Burhan al-Din better. But it would be a good idea to explicitly mention and analyze this, at least briefly.
 * Removed that section and moved the first sentence to the background section. I can't analyze his relation to the Eretnid dynasty, because the sources do not really emphasize on that and his conflict with Burhan al-Din. Aintabli (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ Aintabli (talk) 17:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * who is they and him here?
 * The Christian subjects.
 * smth like "Mutahharten paid Timur 9,000 aspers to have the order reversed'? And was he successful or not?
 * Changed to Mutahharten had the order reversed by paying him 9,000 aspers.
 * One more thing, link . I am unsure whether aspron or akçe is suitable here... Constantine  ✍  07:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I am also unsure, because none would exactly fit per their description in their respective article. Aintabli (talk) 17:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There are some WP:DUPLINKs, such as Empire of Trebizond, in the article
 * Removed that and a few more duplicate links. Aintabli (talk) 20:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Ottoman–Timurid conflict and death
 * 'advanced as far as...where he took Mutahharten'?
 * Already done by.
 * a brief summary of the outcome of the campaign is required here, as it gives context as to how Mutahharten was able to remain on his throne.
 * Clarified that it was a major blow to the Ottomans.
 * Still a bit vague, would suggest at least mentioning and linking the Battle of Ankara in the text; the average reader likely will not know that the main article relates to this. Constantine  ✍  07:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Linked the battle. Aintabli (talk) 17:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * what does this mean? Was Erzincan fought over by the two larger powers? Did the emirate's existence continue or was it annexed?
 * Clarified that it ceased to exist by then.
 * Family and origin
 * Much of this section is repeated earlier. The origin part I would recommend moving to where Mutahharten is first introduced. Since it associates Mutahharten with the Eretnid dynasty, it helps explain his relations with them and Burhan al-Din better. But it would be a good idea to explicitly mention and analyze this, at least briefly.
 * Removed that section and moved the first sentence to the background section. I can't analyze his relation to the Eretnid dynasty, because the sources do not really emphasize on that and his conflict with Burhan al-Din. Aintabli (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * , thank you for the review. Feel free to let me know if I have not adequately addressed any of the comments. I look forward to further suggestions you might have, if any. Aintabli (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I've completed a second read-through. Some minor issues left (see above), otherwise I am happy with the article. Nice work! Constantine  ✍  07:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Source spotchecks
 * AGF on Yücel, as it is in Turkish
 * I spotchecked Bryer, and the reference to p. 148 is incorrect, it should be 149. Otherwise it checks out. Constantine  ✍  08:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That page lacks a number, so I mistook it for an extension of some sort, but including it as 149 would be much more helpful. In any case, I've corrected the references. Aintabli (talk) 17:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Forgot to ping @Cplakidas. Aintabli (talk) 22:57, 3 May 2024 (UTC)