Talk:Mute (music)

Other Meanings
Deleted the 'other meanings' section. This is covered by the Mute disambiguation page.

Karl Naylor 16:13, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Brass mutes
We need pictures! Any offers?--Light current 02:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll try to remember to take one this weekend. - mako 07:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Una corda
"On older pianos it was possible by use of the soft pedal to play only one, two or all three strings, making the distinction between una corda (one string) and due corde (two strings) meaningful, but this is no longer the case"

I sincerely doubt that concert quality instruments have abandoned the use of the Una Corda pedal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.39.163.114 (talk • contribs)


 * I think what is meant is that the pedal can no longer be used to play two strings (for the majority of the keyboard with string in threes), shifting only between one string and all three. I don't know if this is true or if it is available on modern pianos. Rigadoun (talk) 17:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Merging
I second the motion to merge the two, but also recommend the section on this page be cleaned up a bit and separated into smaller sections making it easier to navigate —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.34.0.92 (talk) 23:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC).

Notation and Stopping the Horn
Perhaps a section can be added displaying the correct (or most used) notation for each instruments when using mutes. Also, should "stopping" the Horn be covered in this article?

Directions for muting
This section is beginning to look untidy, because we have discovered the a commonly used term for mute (in at least the world of the orchestra, etc.), that Italian word beginning with "s", and then realise we have to accommodate "with, without, not-mentioning-either", alongside each of: the abbreviation, the (grammatically correct) feminine noun, the (commonly used) masculine noun, then the singular and plural forms of masculine and feminine.

It needs someone to apply some clear economical thinking here and come up with something better.

The words to play with are:

"con" / "senza" / "___"

followed by

"sord." / "sordino" / "sordina" / "sordine" / "sordini"

My mute and I have played in orchestras and chamber music for many years, but shall say no more and throw this to someone else to try tidying. Good luck. P0mbal (talk) 23:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * What about the instances in French and German music which frequently read mit/ohne Dämpfer (or gedämpft) or avec/sans sourdine(s)? &mdash; $PЯINGεrαgђ  05:44 19 January, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's the Italian, important because it's the common language of (classical, etc.) music, which is untidy. The French/German comment seems relatively neat. Addition of gedämpft might be good. Should there be a new section on the language stuff, or just neaten? P0mbal (talk) 11:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I suggest that Sordino be merged into this article. From what I understand it's talking about the same kind of object. --Eusebius (talk) 09:26, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Much of the material from the Sordino article that is not already covered can be merged into the Mute article. I suggest that a abbreviated form of the Sordino article should remain specifically talking about it as a musical term. The Mute article should primarily be focused upon the physical objects. Ngaskill (talk) 07:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds sensible. --Eusebius (talk) 09:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Aye, sensible... Question remains about what to do with the Sordino content relating to the sordun, a double-reed wind instrument with a folded bore. See Rackett for another instrument along similar lines. Right now, Sordun redirects to Sordino, which seems kind of a sub-optimal way to arrange it all. __Just plain Bill (talk) 11:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, the material on the double-reed instrument needs to be put somewhere. Sordun seems like the logical place.  So the redirect page can become an article, and Sordino can become a disambiguation page.  That would make more sense in Wikipedia than 1911 Britannica's procedure of lumping everything together in one article. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 01:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure it is sensible, as long as there is a reference to exactly what Sordina/o means exactly. For instance, if someone has an accordion with a sordina chamber and they switch it on, but do not hear much of a difference, they would look up the word, and find no answer.  On my accordions, it would not make too much sense to think of the word "mute" when using the sordina chamber, as it is a very slight change in timbre.  64.149.54.106 (talk) 19:14, 3 September 2009 (UTC)Nick D.
 * Yes This is sensible. I am a 5th grade piano player and I understand that sordino means, in Italian, means 'add mute pedal' Yuyu.ma (talk) 05:45, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

New sub-sections
I have created sub-sections for each different type of string and brass mutes. My model was the article Bowed string instrument extended technique. I think this change makes the article easier to navigate if you are looking for a specific mute. Also, whereas previously all the wiki-links for – let's say – plunger mutes linked to the brass section of the article, we can now link them to the new Plunger mute sub-section of the article instead. Any objections or comments? Squandermania (talk) 20:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks good; seems nicely carved at the joints the way you're supposed to. __Just plain Bill (talk) 01:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

"Robinson" mute?
Andre Jolivet asks for a Robinson mute in one of his trumpet concertos. It gives a very soft, "distant" sound. Is this another mute or one of those describes in the article? -- megA (talk) 12:04, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Google is better for answering questions like this: http://www.trumpetmaster.com/vb/f131/robinson-mute-28527.html __ Just plain Bill (talk) 14:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * indeed - thanks. -- megA (talk) 18:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

What Do U Mean by Stem?
From article: "Miles Davis often played through a Harmon mute without the stem." Could you please explain what is meant by stem? The word "stem" occurs only that one time in the article. (PeacePeace (talk) 18:17, 20 May 2016 (UTC))
 * This is in the section on the Wah-wah mute, yes? You will see in the paragraph preceding that statement a reference to the mute being in two parts, the smaller part is described as " a cup on a tube that can be slid in or out, or removed completely, depending on the composer's direction or the player's preference". This is sometimes called the "stem". I can see that this could be made clearer. Thanks for calling attention to this defect.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:49, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Bias and Advertising on the Mute page
What is Wikipedia's policy for editing pages with the intent of advertising a certain brand? Under brass mutes, I only see images for mutes under the Soulo brand. While they are definitely mutes of high quality, they are hardly the only mutes on the market; in fact, they are relative newcomers. I find it highly suspicious that the same user has applied images for Soulo's products to the page, right in the same time frame as each product was released on the market. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.70.242.57 (talk) 14:55, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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Rewriting
Hi all,

I decided to rewrite the article from scratch on account of the lack of RS and excessive detail/OR in some sections. The edit history of the rewrite can be found here:. It incorporates a couple sentences or so from the original article, but the rest is my own work.

If anyone has a solotone, derby/hat or whispa mute and would like to record audio for it, that would be great! I'm getting a friend to record a violin mute example, so that should be put in shortly. Also, it might be nice to have a recording of a straight mute on trombone. My overall goal for this article is to get it to GA. Cheers, Ovinus (talk) 08:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Alright, I have fixed some cite errors and the article looks fine to me. Any recommendations for article improvements would be appreciated! Ovinus (talk) 09:30, 14 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The section on brass mutes, at first skim, seems thorough and sourced. One nit I would pick is that a good practice mute does not "severely limit the airflow," at least not the trombone Sshhmute I've played with, in my comfortable registers. I suspect it's a case of "some do, some don't." If that is so, it could use clarification.


 * The string section, IMO, is not yet up to GA standard.


 * Over the decades, a wide variety of mutes have been used, not all of them three-pronged. See, for example, the Heifetz type mute, as well as various slide-on mutes such as the Tourte type, which can be parked on the afterlength when not in use. Saying things about the mass of a "typical" mute is difficult to justify, without seeing more context from the supporting source. In general, three-pronged ebony mutes are more massive than the small rubber slide-on types.


 * Similarly, laying out the details of which overtones are reduced on which string is difficult to justify in an article aimed at a Wikipedia audience, and may not have robust support in the source. Mutes come in different styles, and their placement may be adjusted to suit the taste of the performer, or section leader in an orchestral context.


 * I have seen a clip-on mute from somewhere in the mid-twentieth century, made of gracefully sculpted, polished metal with felt padding, whose action resembles that of the common clothespin seen in this image. That mute's tone changed noticeably, depending on where on the bridge the performer put it. Even a basic three-pronged ebony mute offers a range of possible placements. Without seeing behind the source's paywall, I cannot tell if the author accounted for that and other variations, when measuring which overtones were "weakened and strengthened".


 * In summary, I see "opportunities for improvement" in the string section of this article, mostly to do with selecting sourced information relevant to the topic. Just plain Bill (talk) 14:10, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review Bill, I'll work on finding sources for the string mute section. The main issue I'm running up against is not many good online sources for the topic; 98% of the relevant sources are pseudo-promotional material from companies who sell mutes. I will remove the information about overtones, except for the fundamental not being reduced part, which seems to apply in the vast majority of cases. If you're aware of any good sources on string mutes, please let me know. Sincerely, Ovinus (talk) 14:13, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I should note that while I'm relatively knowledgable about brass mutes (being a trumpet/trombone player), I don't know much about mutes on stringed instruments besides the info I've read in my books, some of which are rather old. Ovinus (talk) 14:27, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * My sense of a muted string sound is that the high overtones are much reduced, while the fundamental remains prominent in the mix. The tone shaping kind of resembles that of a "stone lined" cup mute for brass, as I hear it. Of course, a heavy practice mute reduces everything across the board, which after all is its job. Sources? Hmm... I will see what I can turn up, but it may take a while. Just plain Bill (talk) 14:33, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Your description of a muted string seems consistent with all the sources I've found on the topic, including the one about the overtones. Since it's behind a paywall, here's the relevant details for you:

Ovinus (talk) 14:54, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm looking for the patent of the Heifetz mute, but can't seem to find anything. There is, however, this, which mentions Heifetz as a previous inventor, as well as this NYT article, which mentions that Heifetz patented a mute under his name. Perhaps the patent will provide key details about the mute for the article. Ovinus (talk) 14:57, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Found this: http://www.theheifetzmute.com/, which is obviously not an RS, but might provide some hints for where to look. It mentions that the mute was invented by Henryk Kaston, who also patented it (see this patent). So NYT got it wrong! Anyway, the patent looks to be a pretty thorough exposition of the Heifetz mute; I'll try to extract the most important info. Ovinus (talk) 15:01, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, that particular patent seems to be for a different mute invented by Kaston, not the Heifetz. I can't find the 1949 patent they apparently jointly filed, despite numerous sources claiming they did. Ovinus (talk) 15:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have a Heifetz style mute handy, but was able to get hold of a two-hole Tourte type (like the cello mute shown in the article, but sized for a violin) long enough to weigh it at 1.25 grams. A three-prong ebony mute here weighs 5 grams, closer to the one used in that overtone study.


 * That "felt" mute resembling a fancy spring metal clothespin weighs 35.6 grams, which is surprising, since I've seen it used as a performance mute. For context, a rubber "Ultra" viola practice mute weighs 23.7 grams, while online searching shows the old M&M "brass knuckle" mutes weighing nearly 50 grams, and the currently popular Artino rubber-coated metal practice mute at 65 grams. Don't worry if all this is TMI at the moment; I'm partly putting it here so I can come back to it later.


 * One thing I'd like to do, if you don't get there first, is make it clear in the first sentence of the string section that performance mutes and practice mutes are two different things, even though there may be edge cases of avant-garde composers calling for heavy mutes to be used in performance.


 * Thanks, and please carry on; I will have my eyes on this, and will pitch in to the article as opportunity and inspiration arise. Just plain Bill (talk) 15:54, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * That's pretty fascinating, not TMI at all! I've amended the section to include information about the Heifetz, Tourte, Finissima, Bech, and wire mutes, which I was able to find decent sources for, as well as some info about the different effects of metal, rubber, and rubber-coated metal practice mutes. The source Rossing p.206 states "Typical violin mutes have masses of about 1.5 g," which means, given your measurements, they're probably measuring a Tourte mute (that would make sense, given its popularity). I won't include it in the article though, since that would be WP:SYNTH territory. Thanks for your input. Ovinus (talk) 16:06, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Wrt the violin mute recording, since you have a mute, maybe you could do the recording? Just a simple phrase with and without the mute. My friend recorded that, but I realized that I can't just upload it to Commons for copyright reasons, and it would be rather tedious to go through the whole OTRS process. Ovinus (talk) 07:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Should be able to record and upload a clip in the next day or so, other activity permitting. Thinking of a couple of measures from J.S. Skinner's "Miss Shepherd" that descends mostly stepwise from A above the treble staff to G below the staff, covering most of the first-position range of the instrument. Bare bridge, then round Tourte performance mute, then a rubber practice mute. Could be fun... Just plain Bill (talk) 14:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Awesome! I look forward to hearing it :). With regards to your ce/removal of the paragraph on techniques, two of the techniques did involve a mute being used (putting it on the strings on the side of the bridge and bowing a mute attached directly to the string). I've restored that information, but let me know if you disagree. Anyway, I'll work on finding RS for the first paragraph. Cheers, Ovinus (talk) 15:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Bowing a mute attached to the string's speaking part seems pretty far from mainstream technique. I've never seen or heard anything like it; of course that doesn't mean anything in terms of encyclopedic sourcing. As a side note, I did once witness a degree recital where the trombone soloist rolled the rim of his bell around on the strings under the lid of the accompanist's piano. I'd call that kind of thing more interesting than inspiring. Without access to the source for bowing a mute, I can't say much more about it. Just plain Bill (talk) 16:14, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like they really deserved that degree!! I see, it did seem very weird to me. I'll ask my piano teacher who has access to the Grove Dictionary to see if there's any info on this technique, but for now it seems nonnotable so I will remove it and merge the other technique. Thanks! Ovinus (talk) 16:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
 * By the way, Sevsay p.47 says: "1. Mutes can be placed behind instead of on the bridge.

2. A mute of appropriate size can be placed on the strings between the bridge and the end of the fingerboard. Both sides of the mute are then stroked with the bow. Cello and double bass are best suited for this technique." I, too, can't find any other sources about #2. Ovinus (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Here is a bare-bones demo clip:

Just plain Bill (talk) 00:51, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

With the rough edges I hear, I want to wait a while before putting it into the article. It is possible that I can coax another take from the violinist. Just plain Bill (talk) 02:42, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I like the choice of music. The effect of the performance mute is very subtle, but the practice mute's effect is much clearer. Any updates? Cheers, Ovinus (talk) 20:18, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Violins are famous for sounding different under the ear than out in the room. In the recording, the tonal effect of the performance mute was more obvious on lower notes, only partly consistent with what I heard. Still trying to get a decent recording with simple desktop PC, a Shure SM58, and various preamp/mixer gear. Something wonky about the audio chain may mean that the webcam mic is a better choice. Blrgh. That was fairly close mic placement, which probably didn't help, and the violinist is recovering from an injury, which definitely didn't help. I haven't forgotten about it, and when there is something to post, this is the place. Regards, Just plain Bill (talk) 20:39, 21 September 2020 (UTC)