Talk:Mute swan

General
I wonder what is the neutrality problem about this article? Someone care to show me? Is it that the U.S. government is evil to eliminate 85% of these creatures? Or perhaps bring democracy to the birds as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

I never realized how big these things were until I saw one standing slightly taller than a toddler. A truly amazing bird.

Kelvinc 03:29, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure these swans breed quite frequently and have become permanent residents in the North East. I saw a few of them while duck hunting in Barnegat Bay NJ, and my friend almost shot one. Since they're feral and compete with the native (and almost extinct) trumpeter swan, maybe he should have.

Cooter08865

We live in Southeastern Massachusetts on the Taunton River. While we've always seen swans in pairs and families, this year they've been traveling in flocks (perhaps families according to this site?). Thank you for this website. I've taken an interest in these beautiful birds and enjoy feeding and observing when they visit. Some are very comfortable walking right up out of the water to us for their snacks.

Trivia
I am minded to edit the trivia section as follows:


 * 1) move the aggression bit  of the second item to the main text, but delete local references to this widespread phenomenon
 * 2) move the poaching bit of the second item to the main text, but delete local references to persecution. The most notorious and best known recent incident was in any case in Malta, rather than the USA
 * 3) delete the final item, unless someone is prepared to vouch for this highly improbable statement.

Let me know if there are any objections. jimfbleak 17:26, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Those all sound good. Except possibly #3 (surprisingly). I agree its rather implausible and was added by an anon on the 7 Dec 2004. However I looked at the same user's additions to the City Island, New York page and they have the air of someone with genuine local knowledge. It looks like the swan can only say one thing - 'good morning', so its just about credible. On the other hand I can't find any other reference to this swan and it is the sort of information that needs additional verification. -- Solipsist 18:35, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree with these comments. The third trivia item, "A Mute Swan in City Island, the Bronx, New York, can speak like a Parrot.*" has not been substantiated.  The primary source is someones personal yahoo group.  That is NOT a credible source.  If this was a real story it would be all over the tabloid newspapers. This kind of entry makes wikipedia look like an unreliable source of information.  David D. 00:07, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
 * So there are no objections to the trivia that that a swan can speak like a parrot being deleted? Is there is a newspaper article or similar report to corroborate this claim? I would be happy for it to stay if there is a secondary source. David D. 23:05, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Sounds alright to me. It may be true, but it needs to be verifiable (e.g. a reference). If you are not totally comfortable deleting it, you can always move it to a section in this talk page, with a note that it is awaiting references. -- Solipsist 00:15, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * This is the disputed trivia piece that used to be on the main page. This does not belong on the main page unless someone can come up with a secondary source.  Citing someone’s personal web page is not enough evidence to be in wikipedia.
 * A Mute Swan in City Island, the Bronx, New York, can speak like a Parrot.* David D. 19:42, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the swans are willing to speak up on their own behalf? RoySmith 01:22, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi!,

I hope you like the linx I put for the Bell Ringing Swans of Wells Cathedral in Glastonbury. It was very hard to find these images and any mention of them on the net. I live on City Island, Bronx, New York and I have seen Audrey speak with my own eyes! I do have witnesses who are being Sworn to make an Affidavit. You will not find anything on the net about her. I did find some info that said that back in the Middle Ages there were reports of a talking or speaking Swan. There were legends that were considered myth, up until a few years ago. I will post the linx to it as soon as I find them. These Mute Swans stand 4 feet all or more! They have a wingspan as wide as an Albatross. Do NOT pet the Swans as they can bite your fingers off!

Supercool Dude, City Island N.Y.

Title
Why is "Swan" capitalised? Shouldn't this be at Mute swan? TheMadBaron 06:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It is a long-standing and agreed convention, after extensive discussion, that all bird species are fully capitalised on the wikipedia. jimfbleak 06:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay. Thanks. TheMadBaron 06:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I want to react on the statement that "a swan can bite a finger of" Many times I can not resist the temptation of trying out and until so far I still have all my fingers! The pick of the swan feels like a peg on the finger. I must agree that at first a swans aggressive behaviour is certainly a bit frightening. Most of this behaviour is because of the frightened and with drawl reaction of most children and (city) folks. I think it is not a bad idea to learn them that some people might not be frightened at all. The swans can learn this very quickly, usually when I pass them a second time they keep aloof. I hope someone else can give his experience in this regard.

Behaviour
Nobody will believe me ("Wikipedia not be research. Be common opinion and authority") but ... some observations:

- They seem to be not exceedingly bright. They actually hiss at you when you feed them and they really need it and want it badly.


 * The hissing actually means "I'm excited". --85.181.72.49 16:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

- They seem to have rather limited eyesight. In the situation described above, about 50% of food did not get picked up from the earth it had fallen to. They seem not to notice and/or try garbage pieces instead. Rather myopic maybe. - A nice trait on them seems to be that they really, really hate and despise dogs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.253.2.232 (talk) 14:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

There is no way in hell that any creature weighing less than 50 pounds can break somebody's arm with one hit. This needs to be removed. my friend got his arm broken by a swn and ha can prove it. it stood up took a swipe at him and snapped his forarm72.93.160.107 (talk) 21:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)timmit99

The "breaking an adult's leg" thing is surely a myth. This should be removed, it's likely misinformation. If the poster says his friend had his arm broken, and can prove it, then please cite your proof. Otherwise that passage should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.86.191.24 (talk) 10:55, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

What a mess
Someone needs to format these references properly. As it stands, the article is nearly unreadable. PenguinJockey 20:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I have done a bit of work on it today. Some references made no sense at all and I removed them, along with some meaningless 'information'. This really needs a big cleanup. --jjron (talk) 08:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Here are some references that don't provide adequate source information, and where they were removed from. I am quite concerned by some of these citations because they mostly seem to come directly from the website at savethemuteswans.com. The information that is missing is often the same as is missing on that site. I suspect the writer of having read the site (it also appears that she may have contributed to it) and taking the citations from the site rather than having actually accessed all the original sources. The site is highly biased, as are some of the references. However, I cannot prove that so I am allowing the citations to remain for now in hopes that someone will actually identify them and straighten the mess out.
 * (Howard,H. (1940s-1962), Wilmore,S.B.(1979), Jefferson, G.T. (2005)] Removed from after "Fossils of Mute Swan ancestors have been found in four US states: California, Arizona, Idaho and Oregon."
 * (2002,pers.email) Removed from after what now reads "E.C. Peilou, the Canadian expert on the Ice Age and animals that came across Bering Strait, has suggested that the fossilized mute swans did not become extinct; rather, like the Trumpeters did, they continued to live in small numbers in very remote areas." I have also deleted the "Much of Canada was not colonized until late in the 1700s" because it has no obvious connection to the preceding material.
 * I have removed "[Birds from the Ground.Kenyon,Churcher,Savage,Sadler.(2003),Royal Ontario Museum,pub]." which was after "The presence of Mute Swans in James Bay, Canada, prior to European colonization is shown by a specimen shot, in all probability, by market hunters in the mid to late 1600s, which was at the time unsettled." and replaced it with what I think is the correct citation for this material, though I'm not 100% certain. The webpage http://www.savethemuteswans.com/tech.htm has some of the details for this citation.
 * "The largest Mute Swans are found in the Caspian Sea area, on migration (Gmelin 1789) (Latham, John 1824), even to the present time." I have deleted the cite for Gmelin here because it isn't clear what it was referring to, and changed the Latham cite to the book listed in the references.
 * [Sladen and King,1976 and Heilprin,J.[Assoc.Press].(2006)] recorded Mute Swans arriving in Alaska across the Bering Strait -- ref to Sladen and King has been deleted due to being unfindable, and other reference has been reformatted.
 * "It is migratory throughout northern latitudes in Europe and Asia, as far south as north Africa. [Dement'ev,Sibley,C.] and in the Mediterranean." I have removed Sibley as this is not findable and redirected Dementev to the same as the previous mention.
 * "It is known and recorded to have nested in Iceland [Sutton,G.M.(1962)] and is a vagrant to that area" -- removed, this citation is not identifiable and appears to have been taken from STMS.com.
 * "US Federal agency "removal" programs also may be responsible for loss of Mute Swan numbers, as shown in the Atlantic Flyway Council Waterfowl Report of 2005." A reference has been added here to the document I believe the article is referring to, which is actually titled Midwinter Waterfowl Survey.
 * "outnumbering those of hunters in favor of the action more than a hundred to one, but it was ignored.(U.S.Federal Register,2004)" I have left this in because it gives an idea of where to look, but really it is not an adequate citation.
 * "This may be the result of a removal program." Weasel words. Removed.
 * "US Fish and Wildlife numbers across the fourteen American states in which Mute Swans are found indicate a significant drop in numbers, reported in USF&W Flyway Council papers for 2005." Removed the K. Burton cite after this. This article cannot be found on Ezine, which anyway is a vanity publisher and not a respectable source.
 * "The Mute Swan is protected in some states by state statute, for example, in Connecticut. (Ct. State Statutes, 2007)" Removed this cite because it provides NO additional information. Needs a section number at least.
 * "The UN Environmental Programme lists Cygnus olor (Mute Swan) as found in 70 countries, breeding in 49 countries, and vagrant in 16 countries (UNEP-WCMC Species Data Base 2007)." Ditto above.
 * "The total number of Mute Swans in North America has never gone beyond 16,000 (U.S. Fish and Wildlife letter to Federal register 2004)" Not a helpful cite, and the same information is given earlier in the article without a source.
 * --76.254.64.10 (talk) 23:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Invasiveness in North America
Mute Swans are widely considered to be an invasive species in North America, but the entire text of this article denys this. This is in violation of Wikipedia's basic Neutral Point of View policy. The various paragraphs dealing with the Mute Swan's status in NA need to be referenced and need to include any evidence supporting both positions. Personal communications are not appropriate references as they are not easily verifiable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.167.128.176 (talk) 14:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC).


 * The following was added to the user talk for my IP address above, but should have been addressed here:


 * The Mute Swan (Cygnus olor) has never been studied in depth, because it has not been a game bird and would not "pay its own way," so to speak.


 * As to factual data on "invasive species" problems in the Mute Swans, there are no studies which show that, according to Chris Elphick, editor of David Sibley's hugely successful book on birds. The Federal Court called the materials produced for Hill v Norton,(2001) through which the Mute Swans regained protection under MBTA "Junk science cobbled together by agency people with an agenda" and demanded a NEPA study. The Agency never did the study and set about changing the rules and regulations, instead. This can be interpreted in several ways.


 * There are several studies done by Michael Conover (U of Utah, I believe)on this species over the years and a wealth of information in the Trumpeter Swan Society papers, in which the Trumpeter is shown to demand more than ten times the habitat area of the Mute Swan. The Trumpeter attacks and kills other birds, (as well as trucks and seaplanes,) etc. None of this is considered anything but normal in this bird as it is in many of the raptors who lunch on the smaller birds, including shore birds and songbirds, at threat. Until the Mute Swan is proven to be not native to this continent, which I believe cannot be done, with its long history in Canada and on both coasts.


 * There is a theory that the animosity against Mute Swans was founded in the anti-English symbolism and the bird represented the English, who sent Scots, Irish and Welch to man the treacherous areas of Canada for the Hudson's Bay Colony and did not share the profits. This has been documented but has nothing to do with the species, who was as much a victim back in England, where they were often pinioned.


 * If you would tell me the areas you feel are not even handed, I will rewrite them in a more balanced way, should they be as blatant as you suggest. I do not see them, however, I remain open minded.


 * I have one question of you: Why don't you identify yourself?
 * Kathryn Burton


 * Every comment regarding the status of Mute Swans in North America is strongly biased towards your belief that the species is not invasive. For example, you state: "US Federal agency programs also are responsible for loss of Mute Swan numbers, although there is no science that would dictate such a program (Elphick,C. (2007 pers. comm.)" That is an extremely strong statement, dismissing the policies of the U.S. government and numerous state agencies with the opinion of a single person cited as a personal communication. This is not appropriate for encyclopedic content. As for your above arguments, Trumpeter Swans and United Kingdom colonists have absolutely nothing to do with whether Mute Swans are invasive in North America. Your opinion that Mute Swans are native to North America puts you in an extreme minority. As for evidence of the invasiveness of Mute Swans, I just noticed that there are several papers cited in the references which appear to have had all mention removed from the body of the Wiki article. For example, Allin, C. C., & Husband, T. P. (2003) is the first reference noted, where the authors found that in a coastal pond in New Jersey swan presence resulted in the disappearance of 95% of submerged vegetation compared to plots in the pond where swans were excluded. Why is this study no longer mentioned in the body of the article? You can't just dismiss the science that you don't like.


 * As for not identifying myself, I normally limit my editing of Wikipedia to typos, and as this is my first discussion topic I don't yet feel comfortable putting my name here. Once I figure out how the signature thing is supposed to work, I'll do that. Also, your phrasing of that question strikes me as an ad hominem attack, implying that my request for a neutral point of view is suspect because I didn't identify myself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.167.128.176 (talk) 16:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC).


 * As a minor point to add, the term "invasive species" is a bit misleading here. All evidence points towards Mute Swans in the past straying to North America - a E-W crossing of the North Atlantic is fairly uncommon compared to the other way around, but a swan should have the stamina to make it every now and then. But if there was a resident population of any size before the Trumpeter (and possibly other competitor species) became rare, there ought to be an ample Mute Swan subfossil record, the species should have made some impact in folk memory (I discussed some fossil stuff lately with Adrienne Mayor, and she seems like someone who'd know, if anyone would know), etc.


 * "Invasive species" means simply that some taxon is expanding range and population - aided or unaided directly by humans, it does not matter - at the expense of another or several other ones, the former being not native or not present in numbers to the place where this occurs but the latter(s) being so, and that all this happens as a consequence of human activity. For example, that Himalayan Balsam is considered an invasive weed here in Europe has at least as much to do with the species profiting from humans destroying potential competitors (through altering habitat) than with any intrinsic characters. That something is an "invasive species" does by no means imply a noxiousness or nastiness; though some are invasive because they are noxious, in the case here, the spread of Mute Swans in NAm is clearly the result of anthropogenic ecological release (that is, removal of a limiting factor by humans). Dysmorodrepanis 15:19, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Since the migratory patterns of birds tend to be used an an "identifier" by so

many people in the field, "Only (you fill in the species)would be in this place at this time," there are a number of very early journals that could be cited, on behalf of Mute Swan presence in North America, from LaHontan's Journals, Marquette's,and even Lewis and Clark's geological journal, that mentions "many young swans on a nearby lake," July 4-7-1804 in Kansas/Missouri area. Too late to be either Whistling or Trumpeter, who would be in the far north nesting ground by then. The men brought some, which they had shot, back to camp and would have mentioned them if they were Trumpeters or Whistlers,as they did, excitedly a year later at the base of the Columbia River, when they first saw them.


 * Re:Invasive species, I'll rely on S.Dillon Ripley (Secty Smithsonian for twenty years, started Yale's Birding Department, prolific writer on birds and environmental ethics,who said the Mute Swans were here in early colonial days.)

Before the current extermination program, there were never more than 16,000 Mute Swans in the U.S.(U.S.F.W. figures)and that number fluctuated in hard winters and draughts,as they populated states north of Virginia in the east, along the northern tier states and up into Canada, as far as Saskatchewan, where they have been recorded as flying with the Tundras (Greenleaf)This is not a huge number of birds, considering they live for average of seven years in populated areas that have overhead wires, heavy pollution and various reintroduced preditors. I'm on a deadline. The email on my page KBurton759@aol.com is correct. I don't know why it did not work when you tried it. Thanks for the exchange,it keeps me on my toes.Kathryn Burton 18:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC).

Fossil record
I have outcommented the "fossil record" bit. It is unsubstantiable the way it is written. Even the earliest NAm swan Cygnus mariae is not at all close to the Mute! No "Mute Swan ancestors" are known from NAm as per Bickart (1990); they are either very very old birds neither swan nor goose but something in between, or belong to the subgenus Olor, that is, the yellow/black-billed Holarctic lineage. Two things need to be fixed here:
 * 1) Provide names and dates. All these fossil taxa have names, and are from a specific time and area.
 * 2) A quote would be in order, regarding the Anza-Borrego paper (the only one which I would trust as regards systematics - our understanding of Cygnus evolution has been turned upside down in respect to this species since the early work by Howard et al was published).

Note: Quote from George Jefferson, head paleontologist for Anza-Borrego Desert and state of Colorado, now at Berkeley. His email address is: Gjefferson@parks.ca.gov This is his email to me:
 * " I have no problem providing you with a statement or professional opinion concerning the paleontological evidence, or the lack there of, for Cygnus olor and its possible fossil ancestors. This is simply an issue of evidence which, as you have pointed out, is largely ignored by some.  Communications from this office are considered a matter of public record.


 * The relationships of North American Plio-Pleistocene fossil species of the genus Cygnus (in part assigned to Sthenelides or Olor by previous workers), including C. hibbardi and C. paloregonus to the modern species C. olor have not been well studied. Although it has not been shown through any rigorous anatomical research that these taxa form a clade, there are no compelling reasons to reject such a hypothesis.  It has been recognized that C. paloregonus is a likely candidate ancestor for C. olor but this remains to be fully demonstrated.  Until then, C. olor must be considered a taxon with potential North American ancestry.

Best,       I had no alternative in responsing to you here,Dysmorodrepanis, since you do not show your email in your "Talk" area. George"     ''[[Cygnus olor Gmelin, forward, can be found on the net and              HHoward used the name "mute swan or mute swan type in              several of her papers, which I will add to the paper in             restoring the "Fossils"section. Dr,Karel Voous,pres.ICBC also             agreed with this theory and I have correspondence stating so.

So evidence is needed here that the NAm species are indeed considered closer to Mute than to the Trumpeter/Whistling group (which probably evolved in NAm during the Plio-Pleistocene and therefore is likely to represent the fossil diversity of the genus found there), as is the view outlined by Bickart (1990) which I hold to be correct - as it is entirely sensible considering the big picture of swan evolution - until falsified by better or more recent data. You want a Mute Swan ancestor? C. verae from Bulgaria or C. liskunae (maybe also the mysterious C. pristinus) from Mongolia fit the bill far, far better than any fossil form North America. You need, after all, to build a geographic bridge between the Mute and the Black Swan, which is the living species most close to the Mute...

Not having read the Anza-Borrego paper, I am not 100% here. But I don't give it the benefit of doubt, as the alternate scenario (no resident Mutes or Mute-lineage swans in NAm until brought there by humans) fits the evidence I have seen like a glove.

Note that due to rampant climate/habitat shift since the Pleistocene, none of the fossils holds any significance for the invasiveness of Mute Swans today. Swan ecology is, after all, fairly stereotypical, so the question is: can the Mute fit into the present-day eoclogical niche for swans in NAm, or not? What swans lived on a long-dried-up lake at Wickieup millions of years ago is not relevant in a modern-day context. Dysmorodrepanis 14:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "there are no compelling reasons to reject such a hypothesis" - that is simply not correct. How, when and where, in such a scenario, did the Black and Black-necked swans evolve, and from what ancestors? What are the Eurasian fossils related to? You don't need a cladistic analysis to consider the hypothesis far more parsimonious that does not leave half the fossil record unexplained as does your hypothesis (besides, given the fragmentary state of the fossils, it is questionable whether a cladistic analysis is at all appropriate here given the lack of a sufficient number of scorable osteological characters distinguishing even swans and geese). Also, you cannot feed biogeographic information into a cladistic analysis at all for technical reasons, but the information is certainly very real. You're hell-bent on proving something that rests on a single expert's "maybe". Yes "maybe". But also, "very probably not". That something cannot be rejected does not mean it's likely.
 * Also, what about the strange addition in the taxobox Synonyms section? "var. Sthenelides olor, Cygnus paloregonus, no subspecies" - what is it supposed to mean? Also, if it was you who added that, please reformat and please provide source for paloregonus being a synonym of olor. As it is, this is simply something between POV-pushing and OR. Dysmorodrepanis 13:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, please consider Federal Register 70(2): 372-377. Even assuming paloregonus might be a true Cygnus sensu stricto (not based on any cladistic analysis either, and indeed a matter of dispute since the form was described), the hypothesis that it is the sister taxon to C. olor fits the time much better (I think I'll go with that if it holds after I have reviewed the data at hand). Your scenario would require that a) an ancestral population of "knobbed" swans settled North America about 1 million years ago, b) that it evolved into a different species in a few 100,000 years (not unheard of, but extremely rare and in any case requires small population sizes not likely on a continent), and that c) another few 100,000 years later, it had spread to Azerbaijan where C. o. bergmanni, a mere paleosubspecies (and hence of disputed validity; possibly indistinguishable from "C. o. olor") was found, whereas the NAm population went extinct. The differences between bergmanni and modern Mutes are quantitative and very slight - its validity is based on the assumption that the single very large Mute Swan of mid-late Pleistocene Azerbaijan was not simply a large individual, but representative of the contemporary Mute Swans (and hence, in line with Bergmann's Rule, larger). The differences between paloregonus and the Mute are qualitative (albeit, as in all swans, rather slight). In conclusion, all 3 scenarios are possible (in the absence of a dedicated analysis), but your scenario is not very probable. Your additions suggest that you have not dug into the issue very deeply, only working on it from a modern-time POW which gets you riled. That is all well, but it is not an excuse to ignore the fossil record, which is that a) no evidence exists of a "knobbed" swan from NAm sufficiently old to fit nicely with bergmanni (which is little younger than paloregonus but markedly less distinct from modern olor), b) all evidence currently available points towards an Old World origin of the Mute Swan (Ciaranca et al. (1997) do not provide an analysis but just summarize opinion which may or may not be valid) and c) show me any evidence of a Holocene occurrence of a resident population of Mute Swans in the Holocene but before 1585. "reveals much earlier occupation by Cygnus olor (MuteSwan) on the Atlantic coast." is ludicrous - we're talking about evolution here, and some 250 years are not "much earlier" but simply ephemeral. Also, the "Atlantic coast" locality is suggestive of a vagrant individual or a small population that didn't last. In brief, it stinks.
 * And again - the existence or non-existence of "knobbed" swans in NAm during the last ice age is completely meaningless for the point you're trying to push here and the OR you're adding to that page (hint hint). Your claims require better evidence that "might"s.
 * One question: how many Mute Swan bones have been recovered from Native middens? How many Trumpeter Swan bones have? Because that is the evidence you're looking for. If there isn't any evidence, well, kiss your theory goodbye. Everybody has to do this occasionally, and everybody should be able to. I have read Hachisuka's dodo book, and your approach to the question is very reminiscent of his case for the existence of Victoriornis imperialis. Up to scientific standards it is certainly not.
 * As a final word: you're leaning yourself out of the window to quite some extent. Your claims require MUCH better referencing. I don't think it's necessary or warranted to do this and at present I neither want nor care, but if anybody of the less "ignore all rules"ish editors stubles over this, most all your work will be considered vandalism and/or original research and mercilessly reverted. I think your additions are well worthwhile - they got me thinking, FWIW - but they're in heavy need of sourcing and copyediting, and it's either you do it or someone else will do it and probably leave little of it standing in the process. The only thing I care about is that the best possible evolutionary scenario is presented given the evidence at hand, which is not the case here. Dysmorodrepanis 15:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Response to your suggestions:


 * Dysmorodrepanis, you made several points with which I agree and perhaps I am awkward in handling the response, but my hypothesis is that shared by many,

including Karel Voous, who wrote that the swans came from the southern hemisphere and over time moved north, up through America and on to Asia (Russia/Siberia). All northern swans are known in that area, although you will not get anyone from the agencies admitting the Tundra (both),the Whooper and the Mute Swan come across from Kamchatka or through the Aleutians. There are references in Trumpeter Swan Society papers on this subject and of course this is viewed as a "problem." Both Bewickii and Whoopers are routinely "removed," to prevent establishment in the States, as Mutes on Federal properties have been for years.


 * I agree with you on the Bergmann point, because Gmelin stated the Mute Swans

were plentiful in Kamchatka, but moreso in Siberia. Those from the Caspian Sea were described by him as the largest. These are northern birds.


 * The Mute Swan flies with the Whoopers,Bewickii and Whistling (now cojoined as the Tundra Swan,a designation not accepted in several areas.)They are known in seventy countries (UN Evironmental Project)as far east in Russia/Siberia as Sidemy and Kamchatka and recorded in Iceland (G.Mikesh Sutton and that country's website)

on the other side of our continent.Paul S, Martin asked "Why wouldn't they be here?"


 * I believe the Mutes came across in small numbers and lived in the uncolonized areas of Canada, as the 1650-1700 specimen from Ontario hints at and this echoes the small populations of Trumpeters going unnoticed for many years in the same areas.


 * I have every piece Howard wrote on the Fossils of Fossil Lake,Oregon and Jefferson's book on Anza Borrega. Howard uses the names Mute Swan,Cygnus olor, or Sthenelides olor in describing similarities in the swans of Arizona,Idaho and Oregon(Cygnus paloregonus).George Jefferson worked with Howard for many years and is quite knowledgable of the fossils. he is the author on the Anza Borrega book, as you know. He suggests I get someone to study them at Berkeley. Do you know anyone qualified?


 * I will relook at your comments and my contributions and fix them as well as I

possibly can, without going on forever. Thank you for your help. (Kathryn Burton 02:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC))


 * Now we're getting somewhere! I have as much of the Howard papers (maybe 60%) as I could get my hands on, but NAm paleornithology is not my keenest interest so you're better outfitted than me. In any case, I get the impression that we don't have crania of paloregonus (or else the issue would have been settled, no?)
 * The "through SAm" hypothesis is perfectly possible too, though I am under the impression that the Black-necked is the most distant swan (Coscoroba is apparently no true swan), i.e. Black and Mute are closer to each other than either is to Black-necked, which would suggest an out-of Gondwana radiation (practically a given, as extinct lineages close to Cygnus predominate in the S but not N hemisphere) via the Australasian region into Eurasia for the Mute/Black lineage.
 * In any case, I'll focus (loosely, as this is a less pressing issue to me and seems indeed a US peeve to my jaded and European mind :D ) on checking my literature collection for East coast midden remains of swans, and as what they were identified, and whether this ID was thorough (or if assuming Mute was not present/resident it was left out of the comparison). Note that Mute seems to be a more temperate species - Greenway's "Extinct Birds" (2nd ed.: 288) has data of 77 midden sites from Denmark and Norway between c.5000BC to 1000 AD:
 * Mute (breeds Denmark, strays Norway today) is not found in any of them, indicating that it did not colonize even as far as Norway before the Middle Ages (absence of birds in the most recent deposits may be due to changed hunting practices in Feudalism rather than to genuine non-presence of sp in local fauna, or arrival there postdates litte ice age).
 * Whooper (winters Denmark, breeds Norway today) is found over the entire period
 * Bewick's (winters Denmark, Norway today) is only found in Norwegian sites til the late Neolithic; the disappearance from Norway c.1500 BC as a common bird therefore seems genuine.
 * In conclusion, the best bet would be to round up literature on East Coast (say Cape Cod to Florida) middens and see where it gets to. I'd start with the more recent material, as it might be that there was a self-established (from Europe) population of Mutes on the East Coast but only from Late Archaic times onwards (as the species had to spread far enough across Europe first to make arrival of enough vagrants to hit it off in NAm likely). In any case, Late Archaic and younger sites also seem the best researched. Dysmorodrepanis 22:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

User: Kburton 9:17PM August 27,2007
 * Dysmorodrepanis, I am so glad to be back. I have suffered with shingles for the last week and it continues, very,very painful and out of nowhere.

However, in the interim I received another positive evaluation from Alan Feduccia (think feathered dinasauers) and from Roland Clement, former head bio of National Audubon and headed ICBC,a career in the field that spans at least a million years, but he is bright, energetic and well respected. He is trying to help find an outlet for the paper. One of the things that has always amazed me about bird experts is their total ignoring of world wars, catastrophic events, etc (speaking of which are you aware of the fourth month of catastrophies in Kamchatka. The latest thought is the valley of the guysers will become a lake, the last, huge blast just two weeks ago. I have a friend on a shoot there (photos)and pray for his safety and the safety of those poor people that have gone through so much. Back to the swans, I will compile the new materials I have unearthed and add them tomorrow on this page, not the main page.Do you know anyone who I might contact that would have some answers. I am open to being corrected, but feel the studies have not been done. Do you work with Ramsar at all? Many grants available for waterbird studies, headquartered in Switzerland, sends people all across the globe. Kathryn Burton 01:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)9:39PM

Why are they called "mute"?
Having never personally heard of any species of swan being called "mute swan", I was wondering why I had to scroll so far down the page for the answer to this question; shouldn't the explanation be closer to the top? B7T 19:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Obviously they're quite silent, making little noise besides hissing; the stark contrast to the very noisy, but otherwise similar Whooper Swan may have had a part to play in the naming. --Anshelm &#39;77 (talk) 12:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Distribution and Population sections
May I suggest the section on distribution and population start by providing a world view of the species, then go into more details about specific regions (in separate sections is neccesary). I found it difficult to tell when the article was referring to the global population and when it was referring to the US bird population. A subheading for the US issues in particular (with the US issue confined to that section) would help to make this article much clearer. MrsPlum (talk) 06:08, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Mute Swan
B7T,

In the old days they were called Royal Swans, because the Royal Family of England owned most of them, except the ones owned by the Vintners and the Dyers. They now call them "Mute" because they are mostly quiet in comparison to other species of Swan like the Whooper Swan or the Trumpeter Swan, which are very noisy in comparison. The name "Mute Swan" is inaccurate. My experience with these huge birds, is that they are quite vocal. They tend to grunt when they are happy and hiss when unhappy. They make certain whistles, clicks and pops that seem to be a kind of language. They make certain noises right before they are about to fly away. After feeding a Mute Swan a full meal, it is not unusual for the swan to walk up to me and stick his face up to mine and "chirp". The noise is like an Air Impact Wrench in a car repair garage.

Supercool Dude (talk) 18:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Noise in Flight
Although mention is made of the sound of these birds in flight, I think efforts should be made to source a recording. The sound of a pair flying together is like a strange propeller aircraft and is one of natures wonders. Lonesometwin (talk) 17:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Word for the Wise - May 28, 2008 Broadcast

 * May 28, 2008 Broadcast
 * Word for the Wise
 * Topic: Swan song

'A recent program on swans and cygnets elicited the following note from a listener: "Okay; I got all that, but where did the term 'swan song' come in?"

Our first impulse was to point out the swan song comes at the end, but we knew our correspondent wanted more. Since the early 1830s, English speakers have been using swan song to refer to the song of great sweetness said to be sung by a dying swan. Swan song also developed the extended senses naming "a farewell appearance" or "a final act or pronouncement."

So do swans sing like the fat lady before it's all over? No, but according to various popular tales, the mute swan remains silent until shortly before its death, when it lets loose with a single and awe-inspiring song of beauty. According to Plato, Socrates spoke of this with his students as he contemplated—joyfully, not in sadness—his own death. Socrates chided: "You know that when swans feel the approach of death, they sing, and they sing sweeter and louder on the last days of their lives because they are going back to that god whom they serve."

'That god' was Apollo, god of poetry and song. . . who was believed to have considered swans holy. However, the truth is there is no mute swan and the sweet sad swan song is so much song and dance.' -69.87.203.22 (talk) 11:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Glasgow
Is it worth mentioning that peopel keep shooting Swans with crossbows in Glasgow? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.10.97.187 (talk) 11:53, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Swans in North America
"Recently this swan has been widely viewed as an invasive species because of its rapidly increasing numbers and impacts on other waterfowl and native ecosystems."

Swans are being used to intentionally ward off flocks of Canada Geese that have been polluting small lakes with their excrement in the Northeastern US. Canada Geese have become a real problem. Their migratory boundaries have changed and larger amounts are not returning, but staying year round in this part of the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikem3307 (talk • contribs) 00:38, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup notice at top of page
This article is full of inaccurate and misleading claims backed up with bogus and misinterpreted references, derived largely (if not wholly) from stuff put out by the political campaign group "savethemuteswans.com". I'm working on a substantial rewrite of the article which I'll do in a day or two when I've got all the wikipedia reference citation styles worked out (wish they weren't so complex!). British Birder (talk) 12:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Too many pictures
What is with the picture overload on this page? It distracts from the text. --Webbie1234 (talk) 19:53, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Galleried. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Check out http://www.stoptheswanshootings.com
Check out http://www.stoptheswanshootings.com There's a developing blog and a lot of information. Laurapenn (talk) 17:11, 10 April 2011 (UTC)lp

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Trumpeter Swan which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:45, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Pronounced knob atop the bill
Is this vandalism or just funny wording? Kookas (talk) 18:59, 24 July 2015 (UTC)


 * There is indeed a black knob on the top of the mute swan's bill. Dger (talk) 22:38, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

File:Mute Swan Emsworth2.JPG to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Mute Swan Emsworth2.JPG will be appearing as picture of the day on March 2, 2016. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2016-03-02. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:11, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Distribution
The lede says "It is native to much of Europe and Asia", but the map only shows tiny, isolated populations in Asia. Russia in particular shows a dearth of swans - several spots in European Russia, and a tiny cluster just north of Mongolia, but none in the rest of Asian Russia. Either the description is wrong, or the map. I suspect the latter, but a quick Google search gives vary variable results. E.g. | Europe and parts of west-central Asia; | Europe, several parts of Central Asia, but none in Russia anywhere; | more of Europe, and Central Asia all the way to China and Japan, plus parts of North Africa). Iapetus (talk) 16:20, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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How long do they live?
Information about how long the swans live would be useful in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:4B91:AB00:78E0:63D6:D13A:E17 (talk) 02:15, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Diet and predators?
Thank you. Imagine Reason (talk) 13:02, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

It’s definitely not a bird it’s a damp mope head AI 2600:8807:5645:3A00:34C9:CAAE:D81C:FF2 (talk) 04:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)