Talk:Mwng/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Beloved  Freak  16:18, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
 * A few points raised below
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * A few questions over sources
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * No problems here
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * No problems here, although possible overuse of "claims"
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * No problems
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * Images and sound files are used appropriately & have fair use rationales and appropriate licenses
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

I've found some issues to be addressed. I also have some suggestions that are either unrelated to the GA criteria or are just my opinion, so I'll list those separately and you can do with them what you choose! Lead Origins and Recording Musical style Release Critical reception
 * Specific issues
 * No links to disambiguation pages, no dead external links
 * "...may as well release Welsh pop songs that wouldn't get played..." → would not get played (avoid contractions) ✅
 * "...a song written by Rhys in 1987 that he'd never..." → he had never (avoid contractions) ✅
 * I think a bit more attribution is needed here to say who thinks certain things, especially where you are quoting. Who is saying these things? I think it would benefit from being a bit more like the Critical reception section in that respect.
 * "late 60s groups" → late 1960s groups (more formal, as it's not a direct quote) ✅
 * "In America" should probably be "In the United States", as America can have more than that meaning. Of course, if you mean North America, then you should say that. ✅
 * "The Melody Maker" - should this be just Melody Maker?
 * The magazine is usually referred to as The Melody Maker in the same way as NME is The NME. Cavie78 (talk) 18:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


 * "...the band's influences are "channelled it into a truly organic maverick pop"." - something's not right there grammatically ✅
 * In a quote from the Yahoo! review, you have an ellipse that is not in square brackets. Elsewhere you use square brackets. The brackets should not be necessary unless there is some ambiguity over whether or not the ellipsis is in the original source. however, whether you use them or not, it should be consistent (see also WP:ELLIPSIS). ✅
 * The statement from Rhys at the end of this section seems misplaced as it's neither critical reception nor a comment about the critical reception. Perhaps it would be better in either the musical styles or lyrical themes section? (Depending which is more relevant; it's hard to tell from the quote.)
 * The quote refers to the album as a whole. I placed it in the reception section as it was Rhys looking back on the record several years after its release and seemed to fit there better than anywhere else. Cavie78 (talk) 20:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I still disagree and think it would be better elsewhere, but I'll leave it up to you.-- Beloved Freak  21:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

References I see you've also received some advice about citations on the article talkpage, so those are worth bearing in mind for FAC, and good practise, although not all of it is directly applicable to the GA criteria
 * The reference currently at no. 5 (Debs Prowse interview) could do with more information - the title of the source (Welsh Bands Weekly) and the issue number ✅ I've changed the ref to refer to my print copy. A pdf is available here
 * What makes the following reliable sources (for supporting facts or for using their reviews):
 * Welsh Bands Weekly - the magazine is considered good enough to be linked to from both the The Guardian and BBC as well as to get interviews with such 'high profile' bands as The Stereophonics and SFA in the first place. The magazine was sold in various places such as Andys Records and Virgin Megastores and is archived by the National Library of Wales and National Library of Scotland (see here) for what it's worth. Main editor Debs Prowse also appears in an article from News Wales here The only info I'm using from the publication is a transcript of an interview with bassist Guto Pryce which I feel adds to the article - it is hard to find quotes from band members other than Rhys. Cavie78 (talk) 19:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Nude as the News - used as a source by many music articles including FAs such as Pinkerton, Lions, Be Here Now and Spiderland. Troy Carpenter has written for Billboard and currently writes for Reuters. Cavie78 (talk) 19:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * SonicNet - owned by Mtv, see here Cavie78 (talk) 19:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Chicago Innerview - have linked to Wiki page, see here Cavie78 (talk) 19:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Lead
 * Further suggestions
 * I would consider something like the fourth studio album by Welsh rock band Super Furry Animals, to add context ✅
 * I don't think you need so many citations in the lead. Opinions vary on this, but it can make it look a little cluttered and more difficult to read. All (with a few possible exceptions) info in the lead should be repeated & cited elsewhere (see also WP:LEADCITE). I saw the thread you posted at WT:FAC about this, so you've obviously thought about this but just wanted to give my opinion!
 * Here, and throughout the article, I think you could get rid of some commas. This is just a thought, as I'm no expert on this, but some of them seem unnecessary to me. Eg. "...diverse set of subjects, such as...", "...generally positive, although some reviewers...", "...decided that, rather than releasing...", "...reasoned that, if their English language..."
 * All of the examples you give are correct with the commas; see, for example, The Chicago Manual of Style 16th Edition, paragraphs 6.23 through 6.34. Commas are used to set off parenthetical comments ("reasoned that, if their English language"—CMoS 6.24); nonrestrictive phrases, such as those that begin with "such as" in most cases (CMoS 6.26–27); and independent clauses joined by conjunctions ("generally positive, although some reviewers"—CMoS 6.28).  In fact, there are places where the article could use more punctuation, not less.  I'm taking a copy-edit pass at the article now. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 17:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm certainly no expert at grammar, was just making a suggestion. :) Presumably the CMoS is particularly relevant to American English? Does it apply to British English too?-- Beloved Freak  17:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * In my experience, the use of commas in body text is generally identical between both dialects; it's usually the little particulars, like "Mr." vs. "Mr" for salutations, where punctuation changes between British English and American English. The 16th Edition of CMoS actually integrates a lot of traditionally-British customs, most notably "US" instead of "U.S." as the appropriate abbreviation.  It does note where the British custom differs; in respect to commas, the only note I find is that British English often substitutes which for that in restrictive clauses, although that is not always the case, and many British English writers prefer the rule that restrictive that never follows a comma, but nonrestrictive which always follows a comma—a hard-and-fast rule in American English.  Given that British English is okay with either version, it makes sense to follow the American rule given its widespread adoption.  (The way I learned it is with a simple mnemonic: "that or comma which".) Don't worry, I'm aware this is a British English article and I will do my utmost to keep my colonial linguistic heresies out of it.  // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 18:08, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, in my experience, you get more commas in American English than British English. As I say, I'm not a grammar-whiz by any stretch of the imagination, that's just something I noticed when I was in the US, but it could have just been isolated incidents, I don't know. Anyway, I'm certainly not trying to step on your toes here, so go for it! If this ever goes to FAC, I'm sure the prose experts will raise any issues. (That's not to say that you won't do a great job, just if there are any outstanding issues!) -- Beloved Freak  18:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "...Elfyn Llwyd, who claimed the record to be "the best selling Welsh language album of all time"." - saying he "claimed" this fact, makes it sound dubious (I'll mention using claimed later on). Reading on, I see that several other sources have called it that. I wonder if it would be more relevant to quote Llwyd calling the album a celebration and a short note about Rhys disputing that. It just seems strange to mention in the lead that Llwyd called it the best selling album, when this turns out to be a widely held opinion. ✅ I've changed the quote - well spotted! I think Llwyd's claims about it being a celebration (and the fact it was mentioned in the HoC at all are the really relevant things here)

Origins and Recording
 * I think "commercial sounding" could maybe use a hyphen ✅
 * "...to avoid one instrument bleeding onto the track of another..." → perhaps to avoid the sound of one instrument bleeding onto the track of another ✅ I'm a musician so this makes sense to me but do you think the sentence sounds ok for non-experts? I wanted to include a wikilink but couldn't find anything to explain the concept of 'bleed' Cavie78 (talk) 20:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, pass... I'm also a musician, so I suppose that's why it makes sense to me too! I think it's obvious what it means, as it's quite a descriptive way of putting it.-- Beloved Freak  21:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Musical style Lyrical themes
 * Here, and elsewhere, you have a few uses of "claimed". I think that can sound slightly less-than-neutral, as if the person making the claims is lying, or wrong. I know it can be difficult to think of synonyms for "said", but I find that more often than not, "said" is perfectly fine, and not really that noticeable (see also WP:SAY) ✅
 * Here, and elsewhere, you have strings of citations, sometime up to four at a time. Make sure these are all necessary and could not be covered by fewer citations. One option to consider, to improve readability, is to combine the citations into one footnote. (see also the thread started by you at WT:FAC!
 * There's a lot of quoted material here which might flow better with more paraphrasing.
 * I've used direct quotes only when I feel it would be wrong to paraphrase for fear of putting my own interpretation on Rhys's words. Where this isn't an issue I've paraphrased. For "Pan Ddaw'r Wawr", "Nythod Cacwn", "Sarn Helen", "Ymaelodi Â'r Ymylon", "Dacw Hi" (half the album) I use no direct quotes (ok, well one for "Nythod Cacwn", but that's just to establish that Rhys made up his lyrics on the spot) Two of the remaining five songs mix quotes with paraphrases so it's only really "Ysbeidiau Heulog", "Y Teimlad" and "Drygioni" where I just use quotes and these were particularly difficult, either because what Rhys had to say about them was difficult to put into my own words without losing some of the impact or meaning and/or because he said very little about them. Cavie78 (talk) 00:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It might be nice to include the translations of some of the titles you are discussing if they are relevant to the discussion of the song meaning, to add context, eg. "Nythod Cacwn"

Critical reception Personnel
 * "LeMay did go on to state, however..." → LeMay went on to state, however... ✅
 * I personally think it's ok not to give a source here, as it's fairly obvious how to verify the information. I have increasingly seen a source asked for in a personnel section though, so it's worth considering. Either the liner notes or Allmusic are usual.
 * Yeah, it's a bit of a funny one, I always used to give a cite for personnel but was then told not to. One thing that I always used to have a problem with was where to actually put the cite. What do you think? Cavie78 (talk) 21:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That's how I've done it before, but I'm not sure it's necessarily the best way!-- Beloved Freak  21:45, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ I've added a cite for each section. Cavie78 (talk) 22:21, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

References
 * You have publication details for some sources (eg. NME), but not others (eg. The Independent). This should be consistent
 * Have added a publisher for The Independent. Not sure what to do about websites... I'm a cataloguer at a University in the UK and we don't require place of publication for websites but that's another story. Cavie78 (talk) 20:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking more of FAC-type standard, they like consistency there. I'm not 100% sure to be honest, but it's good enough for now. You'd be best asking one of the FAC regulars like Brianboulton, Ealdgyth, Nikkimaria or Fifelfoo. As for that BBC reference, I personally would cite it with work=BBC Wales and publisher=BBC (although that doesn't make it clear that it's the website, so again - ask the experts!)-- Beloved Freak  21:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC) ✅

External links
 * You have Metacritic as a references, so shouldn't be necessary to include it in the external links section
 * I am happy to remove this but, equally, I think it's appearance in the 'External links' section is different from it being used as reference. Cavie78 (talk) 21:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem, not a big deal.-- Beloved Freak  21:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Categories
 * No Welsh-language album category? Might be worth creating one if there are enough articles to go in it.
 * I've added 'Welsh-language music'. I'm a bit unsure about creating a category - there aren't that many Welsh language albums on Wiki and many of the ones that are featured have English language songs on as well (see records by Gorky's Zygotic Mynci for an example) Cavie78 (talk) 18:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok!-- Beloved Freak  21:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'll put the article on hold for now so that you can address any issues, and I'll add anything else that I notice in the meantime. Good work so far, I enjoyed reading it, and it's nice to see a music article that's a bit out of the ordinary! It's also inspired me to check out some more of their music! Let me know if you have any questions or disagree with any of my requests.-- Beloved Freak  18:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for putting the work in, I'll list the article as a GA now. I appreciate you explaining each of those sources to me, and I'm happy with them all now. The only thing I can see outstanding is the issue of better attribution in the "Musical style" section. On second thoughts, having another look, I don't think this should hold it back from GA. I still think it's important, but it doesn't affect WP:V and isn't a problem with regard to WP:WIAGA. So, well done! -- Beloved Freak  21:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)