Talk:Myrthen

Potential aim to be featured at WP:DYK on September 12
The Schumanns were married on September 12, 1840. I had noted the date when chatting with User:Gerda Arendt and the idea of marking the anniversary came up possibly as a DYK. User:Michael Bednarek then pointed out the existence of this draft of which. So SaryaniPaschtorr, as the main author so far what would you feel about going for a DYK listing on the date?

So far, I've only skimmed what is here. The one thing I've thought of as particularly needing to be stated is that Myrtles had a traditional association with marriage and weddings and that is why Schumann gave the song cycle that name. Dronkle (talk) 17:40, 13 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Good idea. I know from childhood that brides wear Myrthen in a wreath for the wedding, but will have to dig up a source. We should not publish this to Main space before 1 August, because DYK has rules, and one is that it should not be older than 6 weeks when appearing. Time in draftspace doesn't count. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:20, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

To do
The article looks promising! That's it for today. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:45, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Not everything is translated yet, but perhaps not every detail is needed.
 * European date format: 12 September 1848.
 * I am sure that the further readings section - all offline and in German - should be much shorter for the English Wikipedia.
 * For DYK, we absolutely need inline citations, - I'm willing to do that.


 * The translation stops midway through itemising book 1. I last translated German prose into English in the exams I took when I was 15 in 1976. So it would be nice if someone else were able to do that roughly. I'm hwppy ot do copyediting/proofreading. I've done that a lot more recently.
 * Picking up the date point, I notice the article has both "On the 1st of August" and "on 12 September". We need to be consistent. I tend to prefer the longer form in text. What do others think. Dronkle (talk) 17:39, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Date formats should follow MOS:DATE, i.e. here "12 September" and "1 August". As Gerda wrote, the "Further reading" section needs to be trimmed. I don't understand why the original creator of this draft, User:SaryaniPaschtorr, didn't continue the translation. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay I fixed the August date. I'll post on SP's user's talk in case they are unaware. Dronkle (talk) 20:56, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay I've messaged SP. They're a pretty new editor so may have simply lost enthusiasm, but we'll see if they reply. Dronkle (talk) 21:07, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hey, I have left a note on my talk page for you (and also for Gerda and Michael). I've been less active on Wikipedia all round during the past couple of months, but this is a great idea and I'd be very happy to help. I plan to work through more of the translation now. SaryaniPaschtorr (talk) 23:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I come back to this having worked a bit more on the translation. Except for a bit I added back in June about Widmung, whose global importance to the repertoire I think the German article undersells, I have not been very editorial. I think much of the translated material will have to be changed/excised, not least because the song-by-song analysis often pontificates in a pretty uninformative way on the cycle’s nuptial theme and Schumann’s personal life (even when there are sources). There is plenty of good stuff there, but also a lot which could be altered for a more convincing account of the music and critical reaction to it. SaryaniPaschtorr (talk) 04:33, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

August
A few points:
 * to my understanding, songs, including art songs, should be in quotation marks and not italics.
 * what do you think of first the table, the what others thought of the structure?
 * we need more inline citations if we want to go for DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:47, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I feel that two much and too detailed information about the poetry is currently in the table, and suggest to have a section on the texts and their authors, which can say who translated Burns once, instead of repetition in the table, also clarify that Schumann knew the Willemer poem as by Goethe. After that section, the table could just have surnames. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:42, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * We should probably link keys, at least once, and then where? Table or prose? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:47, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I suggest to leave versions and arrangements for a later section, - Liszt is in the way of the transition from the first to the second song. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I quite like the presentation in a table, although it shouldn't be headed "Table of songs"; just "Songs" will do. But if others think that incorporating that information into prose is better, so be it. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:34, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I see that I wasn't clear: I didn't mean to replace it, just have poets by simply last name (Burns, Goethe), while some prose to be written could explain first names, links, era, translation, number of songs here. It would avoid the repetition of "translated by ...", for example). - We should avoid linking the same topic too often. - The header is standard, I don't even know why. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:26, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds sensible Dronkle (talk) 11:52, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually one possibility is to split the table into 4 and include a part of it in the sections on each of the books. Then it no longer needs its own section header Dronkle (talk) 11:58, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

September
Today is the last day to nominate for a 12 September DYK. I guess we can try but only for a subset, leaving the details for later. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:54, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

We may nominate even when not yet perfect if we are willing to comply with the requirements within the next one or two days. It has to be in Main space to be nominated, so making it fit for that is the first goal. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

What I did:
 * I added an infobox with an image. An image from the time of the wedding would be better, but this gives readers who may have no idea who these people were some kind of introduction to the period.
 * I moved the inline ref from the lead to the body.
 * I commented out the untranslated passage. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I made separate columns in the recordings for singers / pianist / year / notes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:59, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I changed the image to one of her, for more authenticity. We could use a better source for the actual date of the wedding, and that should be mentioned in the body.
 * The article is now in Main space and nominated. At present only the first two songs are covered, because for all others, the referencing is unclear. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

What should be done:
 * Any image of the actual music would be good.
 * There are direct links to the German Wikipedia in the references, - those are awful for blind readers. Best solution: write stubs about the people.
 * Every paragraph has to end with an inline citation for the DYK process. I can't do that for the many offline sources. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * All recordings need a ref for DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:59, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * done --GA
 * Of the two refs for recordings given, I can't access DG. - I dropped it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:14, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It would be nice to have a ref for the significance of myrtles for a bridal wreath. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:28, 5 September 2023 (UTC)