Talk:Mystery Science Theater 3000/Archive 1

General show observations
I (having seen nearly *every* episode from the 10 seasons of MST3k) find that the shows on the Sci-Fi channel were quite a bit better as far as the "riffing" is concerned. The between-movie skits declined a bit in quality, I'd almost call them gimmicky, but the actual movie portions were done quite a bit better. Most of my favorite episodes (Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, Future War, Space Mutiny, The Blood Waters of Dr. Z)are from the Sci-Fi channel era. The only thing that irritates me is every 8-10 season show is of a science-fiction movie.


 * While all 10 seasons were good, I think the show lost something during the last two seasons of the show without Trace and Frank around.
 * JesseG July 3, 2005 02:19 (UTC)

The teensploitation movies (like The Sinister Urge and High School Big Shot) are absolute gold; it's a shame that SFC forced them to staticize the format of the show. -- goatasaur 19:06 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I don't mean to be picky, but the movies Gotasaur mentioned were on Comedy Central, not Sci Fi. Fireballil 08:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that is exactly the point Goatasaur was making: The teensploitation movies they did on Comedy Central were absolute gold; it's a shame that SFC didn't let them do movies like that (until season 10 when they got to do "Girl In Gold Boots" and "Hamlet", of course.) -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:06, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I really enjoyed the "Danes in Danger!" intrepretation of Hamlet. &#9786; (How easy it is in the English language to misread the meaning of some sentences. All the better for the BBI writers.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Sci Fi would only let them do sci fi or fantasy movies for seasons 8 and 9. Fireballil 04:39, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Quotes section is excessive
Okay, I didn't say anything when someone wanted to add a quote or two as a sample of MST3K riffing. But now people are getting the idea that it makes sense to compile a list of apparently random quotes to form a huge section within this encyclopedia page. This is not a Good Idea for a number of reasons:


 * There is no good quote format in Wikipedia, a problem that is an ongoing issue elsewhere, and the current Quote section here amply demonstrates this in its irregularity and jarring difference from the rest of the article.


 * Any sufficiently long list of related items in an overall Wikipedia article like this one should be moved to a "List of..." article, as was done with List of Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes.


 * ... EXCEPT that there already is a far more robust, organized, well-formatted, and indexed list of quotes available at Mystery Science Theater 3000, whose link is provided at the bottom of the article. (I just converted it from a simple line entry to the newer Wikiquote box link form, so it's rather more obvious now.)

Therefore, I would suggest we pick 1-3 concise examples of the kind of riffs that make MST3K so entertaining, and relegate the rest to Wikiquote. If we can't agree on which three quotes are representative of the approximately 313 hours of MST3K programming, then all we've accomplished is an excellent demonstration of why we shouldn't have a Quote section in this article. &#9786; &mdash; Jeff Q 09:36, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Um, just to make sure that people think about this and come up with recommendations, if I get no responses on this subject within two weeks, I will pick 1-3 quotes from Wikiquote that seem representative to me and replace the current quote section with them, along with a note to see the Wikiquote article for more. I don't relish the idea of picking them, so help me out, people! &#9786; &mdash; Jeff Q 09:45, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Gyah! When the hell did that section get so huge??  Last time I looked it was three quotes!  I agree with Jeff, even when we just had three quotes, they weren't actually very good because they weren't funny if you didn't see what was happening up on the screen.


 * Personally, as a representative of MST3K humor, I'd like to nominate the speech by John Agar in The Mole People about why the Sumerians want to destroy them for threatening their worldview, and Mike's dry response of "Thank you, Hannah Arendt." I think we should have at least one line demonstrating the erudition that MST3K draws upon.  -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:02, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, I noticed after I'd started this topic that they were all added in one fell swoop by a single contributor, who was perhaps just overly enthusiastic. But now I think it's a good thing the question came up, because there are several different kinds of riffs in MST3K, and there should probably be one example of each kind &mdash; except for those that require one to be watching the screen while they're being made. That's the problem with many fan quotes (including many I've recorded for my own project) &mdash; they're only funny if you've already seen (and maybe even memorized!) the scene. It should be clear to readers who haven't watched MST3K a hundred times why a quote is included, with at most a minimal context line to set the scene.


 * I propose that we identify several styles of riffs, then pick an prime example of each. Antaeus Feldspar has identified one: the erudite cultural reference. (It's one I wasn't familiar with, but that's part of the fun &mdash; learning what you've missed.) Of course, any cultural references won't be obvious to some, but a good cultural riff will tell a reader unfamiliar with the show that there's something profoundly funny if they run across the thing riffed. (I'm almost embarrassed to say how much I learned about Hamlet from the riffs in the MST3K episode of the same name.) With Wikipedia, as Antaeus Feldspar shows above, we can provide links to the riff subjects to make learning what you've missed even easier.


 * Meanwhile, with apologies to Zee, I'm going to whittle down the current Quote section to something small again, because it really does look ugly in its current state. However, I suggest that is just a temporary measure until we all have a chance to contribute ideas here, before we create a cleanly formatted, concise Quote section. &mdash; Jeff Q 19:12, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Whew! I've been working on a list of the types of riffs the MST3K folks do, and the outline is already 60 lines long, without examples! This seems like it could be a huge multipage discussion all by itself. I fear the impossibility of getting any robust yet small representative sample for this article. I'm kinda hoping the changes that have been made in the past two weeks are acceptable to most. &mdash; Jeff Q 02:14, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Editing films to create riffs
The current article makes the following statement about the MST3K episodes' films being edited to allow sketches and commercials:
 * This practice often made the movie more riffable because continuity would not always be respected.

I've seen this claim before, but have yet to find a concrete example of it. I've begun renting DVDs of the original movies to see just what was done to them as MST3K episodes. So far, the handful of movies I've reviewed haven't lost anything significant for riffing purposes. (I've seen entire plot points edited out, but not ones that caused the kind of confusion that the BBI writers took advantage of.) I thought it was about time to get the facts on this claim. If anyone has specific examples they believe to be deliberate continuity mixups or other Best Brains editing to provide riff material, I'd love to hear them, either by posting them here or on my talk page. I don't know if it will result in any changes in the article text. (If I can't find anything, it'll probably take more than a year to watch enough to be fairly sure this statement is false. Only one or more verified examples would prove it, however, although the "often" may need to be changed.) Thanks for any pointers. &mdash; Jeff Q 18:48, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * After more than ten weeks of waiting for any cited examples of deliberate riffable editing, and reviewing DVD prints of some uncut movies with suspiciously funny MSTied scenes, I haven't found a single example of BBI tampering with their movies' structure in a way to enhance their riffing. I still wouldn't be surprised to find such an example, but in the absence of any supporting evidence, I've downgraded the assertion to a speculation. I am still hoping people will provide some specific examples that I can check. &mdash; Jeff Q 20:08, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As an example of how the deliberate-editing rumors may have started, I offer the following scene from The Screaming Skull (MST ep 912):
 * [A shutter bangs over an open window.]
 * Mike: Windows 58.
 * [Jenni, looking for the knocking sound, enters the room with the open window.]
 * Crow: That's the only thing banging in this house, lately, I'll tell ya!
 * [The film visibly skips, but the shot is still focused on the spot where Jenni stood. Eric suddenly appears, holding Jenni, who is crying out.]
 * Servo [as Jenni]: Oh! Oh! The film broke and it was horrible!

I've been using both Netflix and Blockbuster to rent original DVDs, and wound up getting two different 2-movie discs, with Screaming Skull on both. The first disc I watched (which also featured The Werewolf vs. the Vampire Women) had the missing piece of film, which made me think I'd found BBI tampering. But when I watched the second (which also featured (Attack of) The Giant Leeches [MST ep 406]) a few weeks later, I found that it had exactly the same film skip, as well as some other MST skips that the first didn't have. Obviously, two different companies had worked on restoring and transferring the film, and BBI used the print also used by the second company. It's easy to see how someone watching one of these could have drawn the conclusion that BBI had introduced film problems in order to riff on them. It still doesn't mean they didn't ever do it, but it may explain some of the rumors. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 06:50, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Excellent research! Now let's see if Buz's teleportation power was present in the original The Girl in Gold Boots...  heh, just kidding.  I've seen similar things; MST3K used a print of Manos with very washed-out colors, and Joel's riff about "Welcome to beautiful Ground Zero..." doesn't make much sense when the scenery behind Diane Mahree is vivid greens and browns instead of greys.  -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:49, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * No kidding &mdash; that's a good question. I'll take a look at it as soon as I can get my hands on a DVD or VHS of the original Girl in Gold Boots, which may be a while, as neither is readily (or cheaply) available. (I wish Rhino would go back to their practice of putting the uncut movies on the flip side of the MSTied versions!) Thanks for the compliment. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 16:40, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi people. A point which you haven't mentioned yet, is that Soultaker was heavily edited by the Sci-fi channel, in a way that made the director rather.. well upset you could say. He claims the Sci-fi channel cut almost a third of the movie.

I read through the reviews for Girl in Gold Boots on IMDB one day, where one reviewer had seen the uncut movie and claims there was no teleportation in it. --Fred chessplayer 21:18, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Funny you should mention Soultaker, as I myself wrote an IMDb review (dated 14 September, 2003) on that movie, which I thought was pretty good uncut. I hadn't seen Rissi's commentary, and I can certainly understand his dismay, but I think he was more upset about the cuts (which, as I also pointed out, make some of the scenes less sensical) than of the humor itself. I found no MST3K riffs that took advantage of the cuts BBI made, which is the issue here. For instance, there was an obvious cut when Natalie and Zach first dump their troubles on Mrs. McMillan, when Mom suddenly and calmly suggests a bath for Natalie after all their panicked exclamations. If Mike & the Bots had quipped about Mom being on Quaaludes, that would have been a dishonest cut. Likewise, the cuts in the drug subplot made Zach's protestations to Natalie "about the coke" seem out of place, but the MST drug riffs were centered around Brad, whose involvement was clear even with the cuts. In all, I didn't notice any riffing taking unfair advantage of the cuts. But Rissi is quite correct that the movie makes more sense uncut. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 22:02, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, (1) I agree with you that they didn't edit the films to deliberately make them more ripe for riffing. (the only example I can think of is the case of Girl on Gold Boots, if it is true that the teleportation scene doesn't exist in the uncut version -- but it doesn't seem like anyone would make such a dumb edit, so I think it is more likely to be a flaw in the copy they used.)
 * But I do think we should mention is that editing down movies a lot often inevitably makes them worse. And that several movies where heavily edited. --Fred chessplayer 22:36, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

-Besides minor cuts for time purposes, the only edit I'm aware of is a scene cut from the episode "Sidehackers," in which they removed an offensive scene because they didn't watch the movie in its entirety before choosing it. --Denkriston 18:57, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * By the way, I finally got around to renting a DVD print of Girl in Gold Boots (from Geneni Film Distribution Co.), and found that it did indeed not have a "teleportation" cut, but both the MST3K and GF prints had some footage around that scene that didn't exist in the other's print, as if the two restoration/transfer operations had problems in different places. (More about this on the film's talk page.) I don't think it's definitive either for or against the creative-cut theory. I'll continue to review originals as I come across them and as time permits. &mdash; Jeff Q (talk) 3 July 2005 05:40 (UTC)

I've heard this charge leveled most often in regard to MST3K: The Movie editing the film This Island Earth - that may be a good place to do some investigation.

The John Saxon character in the MST "Mitchell" disappears midway through the episode, leading to Tom to ask, "Wasn't John Saxon in this movie?" The episode edited out a scene in which the character is killed in a dune buggy crash. — Jedzz 07:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ouch! That's the first likely instance I've heard of this issue. I haven't seen the uncut Mitchell yet, but I've certainly heard that Deaney's (Saxon's) death was in it, so Servo's comment would be taking unfair advantage of his absence. This might not be the case if the print BBI used omitted his later scene(s), but it seems much more likely that it was cut for time. Can anyone provide some specific info on uncut prints in circulation so we can attempt to verify this? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 09:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe in the MST3K version, during one of the several hundred scenes in which Mitchell is staking out Martin Balsam's house, you can hear a news report on Mitchell's car radio reporting Deaney's death.

Cambot speaks?

 * I've removed the assertion about Kevin Murphy's voicing of Cambot from this article and from Cambot. If anyone disagrees with this, please cite your source for this information at Talk:Cambot. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:07, 14 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, Cambot does speak in the intro to various seasons, when he says "you're on!" Who voices him then? -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * According to The Satellite News' page on MST3K lyrics, the following phrases are said during Cambot's appearance in the Robot Roll Call:
 * shows K00-K23: none (verified for #K11)
 * shows 101-512: "pan left" (verified for #312)
 * shows 513-1013: "show yourself" (verified "yourself" for #614; first word not very distinct)
 * Not only is it not clear (to me, at least) which real person is speaking these words, but one cannot assume that either phrase is supposed to be Cambot's voice. Unlike many of Gypsy, Servo, and Crow's roll-call one-liners, these are imperative statements, which are more likely being said to Cambot. In any case, I am aware of no documentation that suggests that Cambot is saying these lines, and without that, we cannot say that Cambot has been voiced by anyone. Does anyone have any such documentation, or other examples within the show of Cambot possibly speaking? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 11:17, 17 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Cambot only says "Show Yourself" from 513-706. From 801-1013 he says "You're On!", as voiced by Mike Nelson. Furthermore, the Scrapbook has a picture from the KTMA days of Kevin Murphy speaking through a cup, voicing Cambot. I can only assume that is from K01-K03, the unreleased episodes. Reverend Raven 09:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * As I understand it, the bots did the voices for themselves in the Sci Fi years. Gypsy said "Oh my stars!', Tom said "Check me out!" and Crow said "I'm different!", a reference to his voice changing because of the change from Trace Beaulieu to Bill Corbett. In the Comedy Central years, they didn't say the lines, which may lead to the thinking that Cambot did them. Fireballil 08:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's pretty clear that it's "the character of Mike Nelson" speaking for the laconic Cambot during the opening credits of 513-1013. He asks Cambot to show himself, and tells Cambot that he's on camera. And, I'm with you JeffQ, I've seen all but the first four, and I've never caught Cambot speaking. --Larry Hastings 18:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Animated image captures
I took a chance and uploaded this gif-animation. The low quality and briefness makes me wonder if it could be classified as fair use. Fred-Chess 22:13, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Gypsy's operator during KTMA season
EmiOfBrie recently added Josh Weinstein as Gypsy's operator in 1988, roughly in sync with the article on Gypsy (MST3K). (Presumably it should apply through early 1989 as well.) But reviewing the KTMA episodes (specifically K04, K05, K10, and K11), I see that there are no clear credits for each 'bot. "Puppet Operation and Voices" are credited to Josh, Trace Beaulieu, and Kevin Murphy as a group. Now, we know that Josh did Servo and Trace did Crow, so what did Kevin do? Did Josh really do Gypsy? (It sounds somewhat like him, but KTMA Gypsy's voice is someone inhaling as they speak, making it hard to recognize any voice.) Do we have any reliable source for this information? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The FAQ from Satellite News (www.mst3k.com), which is the official MST3K web site endorsed, but not run by, Best Brains, lists Weinstein as Season 0 (KTMA) operator of Gypsy. This fact's been known among MSTies since the late 1990s.


 * Quoted from http://www.mst3k.com/mstfaq/basics.html -> "Josh Weinstein played Dr. Laurence Erhardt and provided the voice and puppetry for Tom Servo in the KTMA episodes and during the first national season; he also supplied the voice and puppetry for Gypsy during the KTMA episodes."


 * EmiOfBrie (talk) 12:49, 2 October 2005 (CDT)


 * Excellent! That's exactly what I was hoping for. (As a MSTie myself, I am suitably chagrined for not knowing this.) Of course, that still leaves unanswered the question of why Kevin Murphy was credited as a "puppet operator and voice". He was credited as cameraman, so I suppose he might have gotten the nod for Cambot, but that's a bit of a stretch, since the Cambot puppet's only use was in the opening credits. (On the other hand, they went through the trouble of crediting makeup person Faye Burkholder for voicing Gypsy for part of one host segment in "SST: Death Flight" (K13), so I guess this is possible.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:17, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's exactly why Murphy was credited there, and, according to Murphy, Cambot did speak on one of the early eps that's yet to be found, though for the sake of the Wiki, it probably isn't significant enough to mention at this point. ~ EmiOfBrie (talk) 13:21, 2 October 2005 (CDT)

Cast
From the main page:


 * The Nanites — Self replicating, bio-engineered organisms that work on the ship. They are microscopic creatures that reside in the S.O.L.'s computer systems. The nanites made their first appearance in season 8. In their rare appearances on the show, they usually did no more than make wise cracks at Mike and the bots. However, they had the ability to blow a planet up at will and were responsible for the destruction of Professor Bobo's home planet.

The last part simply isn't true. The nanites had nothing to do with blowing up the Earth. Bobo fixed the Holy Bomb for the Holy Bomb guys, with the suggestion of a "pair of locking pliars and spanner" from Mike. I've fixed this on the main page. For extra credit, where does the "pair of locking pliars and a spanner" reference come from? oneismany 12:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Oneismany is correct about Earth's destruction, but since this paragraph is about the Nanites, not the Earth, I've revised the older text to indicate that the Nanite's capability was demonstrated in ep 808 ("The She-Creature") when they destroyed the Observers' planet (at Mike's unwittingly vague request). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:15, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * After reviewing the line about wisecracks, which isn't quite accurate, I revised the paragraph again to include more specifics about their activites, also adding links to the relevant concept of nanotechnology, to their deus ex machina storyline use, and to the unstated but obvious riffing on the flea circus concept (ep 909, "Gorgo"). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Tape Trading Article
Being that Mystery Science Theater is kept alive today almost solely due to tape trading efforts by fans, I'm thinking that perhaps a seperate article about tape trading would be warranted. It could detail the history of episodes being recorded, methods of trading, etc. It is just an idea, wanted to see what everyone else thinks about it. -- Cambot 01:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I disagree with your assumption. I think several commercial releases per year of boxed DVD sets, along with (probably modest) sales of memorabilia at BBI's merchandise store, provide a substantial continued buzz about the show. Consider the current Amazon rankings of the MST3K DVDs:


 * versus another, very popular, actively syndicated TV series' DVD collections:


 * I think this suggests that DVD sales are keeping MST3K alive, even without the tape trading. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:28, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * eyes p2p and dvd Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 04:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * That may be true among passive fans (ie. people who like the show enough to buy the DVDs, but are not cult followers, or in MST-terms, "MSTies"). However, MST3K tape trading was a very large part of the propagation of the show's success; so much so, that during its years on Comedy Central, the words "Keep Circulating the Tapes" can be seen at the end of episodes. This is how MSTies kept up (and continue to keep up) with the show. Many (like myself) have all the released DVD materials. However, the majority of the show's run is not available through BBI, Rhino, or any other company, and thus, the subculture of tape traders continues. Obviously, DVD sales are a note-worthy addition in explaining the cult following of the show, but it omits a very large portion of the equation. The practice of taping and subsequent trading goes back to the show's earliest days on KTMA and stuck with it until its duration. I believe that in and of itself warrents at least an additional heading within the current MST3K article (though I do believe it deserves its own).--Cambot 07:37, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, the biggest obstacle to an article on tape trading (or even discussion of the phenomenon in this article) is a lack of reliable sources that can be used for verification. We fans routinely forget that Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. We can be creative about how we express information, but the raw information itself must be published. Unless we can cite such sources for the history of MST3K tape trading, it shouldn't even be mentioned in Wikipedia. Not everything that is true is acceptable material for this encyclopedia. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

References for MST3K articles
Wikipedia television show articles are notorious for their lack of references, as we fans are more than happy to expound upon our favorite series without bothering to back our contributions up with published information. I am trying to build up a solid set of references for all MST3K-related articles. I've started by adding "References" sections to Satellite of Love (MST3K) and Tom Servo. Folks can review review them there to see my initial approach, but here is a more comprehesive set of citations, which can be excerpted for individual articles:

== References == === Print === === Web === === Commercial video === ==== Individual episodes and tapes ==== ==== Collections ==== === Telecast episodes ===
 * The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Amazing Colossal Episode Guide (1996), ISBN 0553377833.
 * The Official Mystery Science Theater 3000 Bot Building Booklet (1998), Best Brains, Inc., ISBFE 05557143431.
 * Satellite News: The Official Mystery Science Theater 3000 Web Site
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - The Amazing Colossal Man VHS (1996), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566052807 (episode #309).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - Beginning of the End DVD (2000), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566056810 (episode #517).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - The Brain That Wouldn't Die DVD (1996), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566052823 (episode #513).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - The Crawling Hand DVD (2002), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566058635 (episode #106).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - Eegah DVD (1997), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566053455 (episode #506).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - The Hellcats DVD (2002), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566058627 (episode #209).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - I Accuse My Parents DVD (2002), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566058236 (episode #507).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - Manos, the Hands of Fate DVD (2001), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566057817 (episode #424).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - Mitchell DVD (2001), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566057809 (episode #512).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - Red Zone Cuba DVD (2002), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566058236 (episode #619).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - The Wild World of Batwoman DVD (2000), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566056802 (episode #515).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000: The Movie DVD (1996), ISBN 6305078246.
 * The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Scrapbook VHS, Best Brains, Inc.
 * The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Collection, Vol. 1 DVD set (2002), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566059062.
 * Disc 1, The Skydivers (episode #609).
 * Disc 2, The Creeping Terror (episode #606).
 * Disc 3, Bloodlust! (episode #607).
 * Disc 4, Catalina Caper (episode #204).
 * The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Collection, Vol. 2 DVD set (2002), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566059348.
 * Disc A, Pod People (episode #303).
 * Disc B, Cave Dwellers (episode #301).
 * Disc C, Angels Revenge (episode #622).
 * Disc D, Shorts, Volume 1.
 * The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Collection, Vol. 3 DVD set (2003), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566059682.
 * Disc A, The Atomic Brain (episode #518).
 * Disc B, The Unearthly (episode #320).
 * Disc C, The Sidehackers (episode #202).
 * Disc D, Shorts, Volume 2.
 * The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Collection, Vol. 4 DVD set (2003), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566059003.
 * Disc 1, Girl in Gold Boots (episode #1002).
 * Disc 2, Hamlet (episode #1009).
 * Disc 3, Overdrawn at the Memory Bank (episode #822).
 * Disc 4, Space Mutiny (episode #820).
 * The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Collection, Vol. 5 DVD set (2004), Rhino Entertainment, ISBN 1566059062.
 * Disc 1, Boggy Creek II (episode #1006).
 * Disc 2, Merlin's Shop of Mystical Wonders (episode #1003).
 * Disc 3, Time Chasers (episode #821).
 * Disc 4, The Touch of Satan (episode #908).
 * The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Collection, Vol. 6 DVD set (2004), Rhino Entertainment, UPC 603497037629.
 * Disc 1, Attack of the Giant Leeches (episode #406).
 * Disc 2, Gunslinger (episode #511).
 * Disc 3, Mr. B's Lost Shorts.
 * Disc 4, Teenagers from Outer Space (episode #404).
 * The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Collection, Vol. 7 DVD set (2005), Rhino Entertainment, UPC 603497040421.
 * Disc 1, Hercules Unchained (episode #408).
 * Disc 2, Hercules Against the Moon Men (episode #410).
 * Disc 3, Prince of Space (episode #816).
 * Disc 4, The Killer Shrews (episode #407).
 * Disc 4, "Assignment: Venezuela" (unaired short).
 * The Mystery Science Theater 3000 Collection, Vol. 8 DVD set (2005), Rhino Entertainment, UPC 603497041725.
 * Disc 1, Hobgoblins (episode #907).
 * Disc 2, The Phantom Planet (episode #902).
 * Disc 3, Monster a-Go Go (episode #421).
 * Disc 4, The Dead Talk Back	 (episode #603).
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000 - The Essentials DVD set (2004), Rhino Entertainment, UPC 603497034420.
 * Disc 1, Manos, the Hands of Fate (episode #424).
 * Disc 2, Santa Claus Conquers the Martians (episode #321).
 * Disc 3, Shorts 3.
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000, episode #K06 (Gamera vs. Gaos)
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000, episode #205 (Rocket Attack U.S.A.)
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000, episode #1004 (Future War)
 * Mystery Science Theater 3000, episode #1013 (Diabolik)

This list contains every (current) officially-released recording of MST3K material, plus a sample of unreleased-episode citations. (Including all of the remaining telecast eps for easy pasting would make this list even more outrageously long, and there's no information in their citations that isn't readily available from List of MST3K episodes anyway.) Articles would only include the specific publications and recordings that provide sources for the material in the article. Some notes:
 * To use this list, edit this section, copy the entire list into a text editor, delete everything (in your copy!) that isn't needed, remove any remaining "nowiki" and "br" tags, and paste it into the appropriate position in the article (after "See also" but before "External links").
 * I've divided this list into logical groups for easier review, but I would expect that, since most MST3K articles probably need less than a dozen references, the divisions should be removed before saving the selective References section.
 * The HTML comments following a citation aren't necessary, but can direct editors to incorporate explicit citations in the article without cluttering up the reference section. On the other hand, perhaps the connection should be made visible to readers.
 * The "STILL MISSING" comment at the end is important in helping editors review what reference work still needs to be done. It should not be visible because it is a meta-statement; i.e., about the article, not the subject.
 * I'm not sure what order these should go in. My initial idea was to group them into most-official down to unreleased episodes, with the latter being in episode-number order. Ep-num order doesn't work for the DVD sets, though. Here I've listed them in set-number order for the sets, and alphabetical order for the individual DVDs and VHSes.
 * I recommend including Satellite News in "References", not "External links", because the former specifically addresses source information, while the latter can be rather tangential to the subject. Alternatively, a specific link to Satellite News source information (e.g., Episode Guide, Season 3) may be given in "References", while the main page link can be listed in "External links".
 * I did not include any of the individual Shorts, Tom's Host Segments, Play MSTie, Poopie, or Last Dance tapes or the Clowns in the Sky CDs available from BBI. (I only included the Shorts discs from the Collections for completeness; I wouldn't expect them to be cited, except possibly "Assignment: Venezuela", which is effectively straight-to-video.) All but the Poopies and Last Dance contain only material already covered in episode recordings. The bloopers and "memory lane" recordings didn't strike me as likely to be a source for encyclopedic information, but I could be wrong.

I invite everyone to discuss the format and use of these references, and to help me propagate them to all MST3K articles. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 21:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Further reference to MST3k
I remember playing a Playstation videogame involving 4x4 offroad driving on various planets with a mercenary plot and fast action. Players could buy weapons and go on to more missions--if I remember correctly, the plot was pretty linear.

It was a real treat, however, that every time there was a pre-rendered cinematic, (a briefing from the futuristic government officials who paid you) two silhouettes in cushy chairs would riff on the briefing. Even if you died, a movie with riffing would play.

What was this game? I can't remember for the life of me.
 * The game in question was Off World Interceptor.Reverend Raven 08:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I remember seeing a reference to MST3k in either Star Wars: TIE Fighter or Star Wars: X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter. In one mission, they had a NAV buoy called MST3k, and I remember there being also a capital ship called Manos somewhere (probably a Nebulon-B Frigate). Darkstar 11:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Tape Providers in Links Section
I think it's a bit inappropriate to include "MST3Kvideos.com" and "Cheepnis" in the links list. While I have no problem with including the Digital Archive Project, as it is download based and free, these other two openly solicit cash for bootleg tapes.

While I don't disapprove of what these tape providers do (after all, I built my collection the same way), I don't think that wikipedia should provide links to them. That simply turns wikipedia into a source of free advertising for something of questionable legality.

Not to mention that if we do allow these two to link their sites from here, we have to allow everyone to do so. That could get out of hand quickly, as there are literally hundreds of people who offer tapes for sale.

Anyone who wants copies of these episodes can find a way to get them from a google search or from the other links on this page anyway...

So I'm going to remove those two links. Feel free to revert my update if you disagree.

Jwadeg 18:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I support this removal, on the basis of Wikipedia's prohibition against advertising. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 23:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've just posted an explanation of the situation to our anonymous link-adding friend, in the hopes that they will consider the reasons for the removal and join in the discussion. I felt this was important to do before we attempt to invoke the three-revert rule, which has easily been exceeded at this point. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section
I've just removed a new "Criticism" section because it seems to have been created solely to mention a putative criticism from Michael Rissi, director of Soultaker, which was featured in MST3K episode 1001. The text is based on a quote from IMDb's user comments pages for the film (from July 28, 2001, in a posting from "CamMan-5 from Hollywood"). The problem is that Reliable sources specifically rules out the use of bulletin boards and similar user-posted materials as sources. This is not surprising, as there is no way to verify who the poster is, so we don't really know if this is indeed Rissi. (I suspect it is, but that's not the point.)

On the other hand, a "Criticism" section is perfectly reasonable. But we should come up with criticisms published by WP-reliable sources. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * All true and reasonable. (I'm the one who added it, hello.) I included it because it interested and concerned me slightly - I love MST3K, but the idea that some of the movies may have been made more inept while being edited down (they had to be edited for time since the show has a consistent running time, and sometimes for content, I know - not everyone may realise this though) does seem a bit underhand. But if there's no legitamite way to include it I guess that's that. Denzilq 22:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a legitimate way — by using reliable sources, by Wikipedia definitions. Personally, I really like CamMan-5's criticism, because it focuses on the reasonable concern of filmmakers that their artistic output not be misrepresented, especially when being mocked, while still acknowledging the humor of the show. It's just not a properly verifiable source. I really think proper sources exist; I just haven't hunted them down myself. One place to start might be TV Guide or other entertainment publications (with online presences, to make searching easier). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I meant a legitamite way for that particular quote, since (as you say) it's a good one, despite the shakiness of the source. Or did you mean that he may have expressed similar sentiments elsewhere? I will have a look at TV Guide etc. Denzilq 22:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Infobox Television
Should there be included to the article an Infobox detailing the usual details in relation thereto? DrWho42 02:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I see no reason to neglect this particular innovation from which many television articles have benefited. Go for it! ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Absolutely! EVula 03:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Done and done. Reverend Raven 04:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * And very plusgood at that.. Although I'd say try screen-capturing the mst3k logo than what's currently on.. DrWho42 04:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ditto. So long as it's the Comedy Central era planet logo. The Sci-Fi era one is just too damn dark. Reverend Raven 05:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I can upload a screen capture of any extant episode with a few minutes' effort. But it looks like the two general appearances of the logo are hard to get clean, full copies of. The one at the end of the episode intro, just before the reverse tunnel into the teasers, is cropped by the closing of the #1 tunnel hatch. In the commercial-sign outros, by the time the full "MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATER 3000" phrase is visible, the planet has expanded so that its top and bottom are cropped by the TV screen. (This is also true of the season 1 ep intros that don't have the reverse-tunnel pass.) Seems like we should stick with the promotional image currently in use. If someone cite a specific full-screen planet logo on any episode, short, or BBI video, I should be able to grab it. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * What about the blooper reel (on Manos)? I can't remember if you can get a a solid screen cap off that before the "Poopie Reel" type pops up. EVula 14:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The "M" is "Mystery" is barely visible for 1-3 frames before "POOPIE!" arrives to overwhelm the logo. (The "3" in "3000" is in on-screen, but looks more like crater background than a number at that point.) I suppose it'd do in a pinch, but the promo image is still much better. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 16:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I trimmed out some of the names under "starring". Most of those people weren't the stars; they were crew members who happened to have some roles. The stars are the two hosts, plus Tom Servo and Crow (specifically, the people who did the voice and puppetry work for those two characters). The Mads, regardless of their overall bearing on the storyline (after all, there would be no show if they didn't send them a movie) are just supporting characters. So is Gypsy. As it is, the infobox spilling out into the Premise section annoys me, but its all valid information, so... oh well.

Also, do we really think there will be an actual portal? If not, lets ditch that, too. EVula 15:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I quitely agree with the above mentioned (I don't like how it slides into the premise either..), but I do indeed think this portal important.. The problem is though to actually get the WikiProject for this segment of cyberspace started. DrWho42 05:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. If Gypsy was important enough to warrent mentioning in the opening theme (and had lines/puppetry, unlike Cambot), then her performers deserve a cast credit. All the characters were either replaced or revoiced (repuppetted?) by the end of the series and the complete main cast list should reflect everyone who performed those characters.  And which of the Mads is missing? We've got Trace, Frank and Josh..MaryJo, Kevin and Bill. That's everyone. Reverend Raven 05:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Just because someone is mentioned in the opening credits doesn't mean that they have as much screen time as everyone else. Gyspy is in, what, a quarter of the episodes, if that. Certainly not nearly as important as Tom Servo or Crow, which is why I consider her supporting (same as the Mads; though they are in every episode, they don't have nearly as much screen time as the two bots and Joel/Mike). As for the "missing Mad", I was mentioning that I missed removing Mary Jo (I consider the Mads to be supporting). Mary Jo was the only Mad that wasn't also a puppeteer on one of the major characters, so I removed her. EVula 14:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I disagree with ya on what constitutes a main character. If seen in nearly every episode and/or mentioned in the theme song, I'd qualify that as a main character. To me (and Best Brains, apparently) the main characters are the humans on the SOL, the bots (including Gypsy), and the Mads. At least insofar as the "story" of the series is concerned (if that word's even applicable in this case). I think the crux of the matter is that the show ran for 11 years and had a complete cast change by the end and the list reflects that.


 * And MJ wasn't the only Mad who wasn't a puppeteer..Frank wasn't either. Reverend Raven 20:28, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

External Links arranged
I've recently arranged the external links so their not as cluttered.. Feel free to re-edit or re-sort or include new links to that section. DrWho42 05:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Anyone noticed the Prince of Space trailer upon the MySpace fan-group? (which is one of the biggest few..)

Here's a link to what I'm talking about: 1959. DrWho42 03:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Episodes/Experiments vs. Movies
Aside from the movies obviously featured along the List of Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes, shouldn't there be a segment concerning what happened in the episode itself (i.e. what Joel/Mike and the Bots did in the episode, Invention Exchange, noteworthy other aspects)?

I personally think it would definately improve the state of stubs and increase the MSTie-side of it as well.. DrWho42 00:38, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not clear on what you're suggesting. There are no details of specific movies in this article, so there should be no details of specific host segments (except as they relate to events in the overall show). If you're talking about changes to List of Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes, you should post your comments and questions on its talk page. If you're talking about host-segment information to be added to individual film articles, there is a current discussion about individual articles for MST3K versions of films at Talk:List of Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes, which is probably the best place to mention this. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

"Movie Sign"
I am a little surprised that there appears no explanation in the main article regarding Joel/Mike's (and sometimes Tom or Crow's) exclamations of "We have Movie Sign!" throughout each program: "Movie Sign" is only mentioned in passing in the article. I am about 99.9% sure that the expression came directly from Frank Herbert's Dune - and in particular David Lynch's film adaptation, where when the presence of a Sand Worm is detected, and (sometimes) the ground shakes, and someone will say: "We have Worm Sign!". I think this is a semi-important and somewhat amusing tie in between Dune and MST3K - and MST3K began production not too long after Dune was released on Laserdisk, to the delight of sci-fi fans and Dune's cult following. Just wondering if anyone else "noticed" this and if it should be mentioned in the main article. --T-dot 16:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but without a reliable source for such a theory, we can't make such a statement here, as it would be original research. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Play MSTie for Me
I wanted to add a little more detail to the trivia section of the Play Misty for Me entry. Does anyone know exactly when Comedy Central did this, if the episodes aired were indeed viewer requested and any other interesting information? Thanks. Wowbobwow12 01:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The Satellite News mentions Play MSTie for Me I believe it was around from mid to late '94 to at least fall of '95. In March '95, CC stopped taking viewer votes for the episodes but kept calling it Play MSTie for Me. I think it's also worth mentioning the grief that came out of Comedy Central's decision to end the midnight airings . Reverend Raven 09:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Many thanks! Wowbobwow12 00:39, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The MST3K Hour
I didn't see any mention of the "Mystery Science Theater 3000 Hour" I discovered MST3K in college in 1994 when I had free cable in my dorm room. When I got home from college I was bummed because we didn't have cable. But lo and behold one of the local stations was playing the MST3K hour. It consisted of a regular episode cut into two, one hour shows. At the beginning and end of each show Mike was dressed as an old man, doing a "Masterpiece Theater" type introduction and conclusion. Does anyone know any more of the history of this sindication of MST3K? I know they showed it for a year or two on our local affiliate.


 * Your wish is my command. There is now a MST Hour section with this information. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"Background and history" restructuring
I've done some restructuring to the "Background and history" section, which has accreted a good bit of material that doesn't fit under this heading, and was quite wandering in its flow. I split it into two main sections, the second being "Reactions", and divided the first into major events in the series, including the broadcaster eras, the film, and the host-switch.

I removed the "eras" section that had been tacked on later because it was completely unsourced. (If someone can properly source any of the era structures, a paragraph on this subject might serve as an introduction to the "Background and history" section.) I also removed the "some of the films dismembered" section (although I love that phrase, whoever wrote it) because it seemed like an excuse for editors to argue over their favorite episodes (again, without any attempt to source claims of popularity). This also dropped the unsubtantiated claim about trimming the episodes deliberately to make for better riffs, but some of that material might conceivably go into another section if sourced.

I also added a new subsection on The Mystery Science Theater Hour, per the above request. I hope that this work, plus my conversion of all the quickie bare links and partial citations into full source citations, moves the article a bit closer to the Wikipedia encyclopedic ideal. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Imminent demise of trivia
The trivia section in this article is absurdly long and nearly all unsubstantiated. Rather than fact-tag dozens of lines, I plan to remove anything that doesn't cite a reliable source sometime in the next week or two. This is fair warning — if you can source the claims, do it now, or they may disappear soon! ~ Jeff Q (talk) 17:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I would move the items to discussion instead of pure deleting. I doubt most of the items will ever have sources (trivia basically is obscure information) --MarsRover 20:37, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have dug up a number of sources for the trivia items. However, a few I am having difficulty procuring. The comics references for one, given that they give the issue number, should count as sources. Scans are kinda hard to come by online. Some of the in show stuff (ie: the little Dr. F doll in Mike's door sequence, Joel's voice) I'm not quite how to cite, as they're in the show itself. And the "classic SOL set cost $200" I have on DVD as part of a 1998 BBI studio tour, and I don't have the means of putting it online, but I can assure you is valid. I am strongly against the removal of the trivia section, as this is prolly the biggest slice of MST3K trivia online and it deserves to be mentioned in this article. Reverend Raven 21:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Does anyone else think the "Notable Exceptions" segment right below the general Trivia seems a bit oddly placed? DrWho42 21:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, that section sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm including it in this cleanup effort, as it is both within the Trivia section and is well-defined by the term "trivia". ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick start on actions, folks. Let me make this a bit easier than I made it sound above:


 * Identify the episode, issue, or other specific information in any periodical work (like the show or a comic), and I will format it into a proper citation when I make my cleanup edit. (If it's already there, don't worry about it, but make sure it's specific.)


 * If something is sourced from any of the materials listed in the section above, I can confirm the specifics, as I have all of this material. This includes home recordings of every single extant episode and auxiliary material (e.g., Scrapbook, Bot Building Booklet, the specials, etc.). An approximate timecode or location in the work would be helpful. I expect I'll do some sourcing myself when I do the cleanup, but the more that's available when I start, the less chance there is that I'll screw up and fail to find it, eh?


 * If something requires a screen capture for illustration, I have the means to accomplish this, but I wouldn't expect to add an image unless it had a significant impact on the article. Scene or timecode references should suffice for sourcing.


 * We need to source claims like "creator Joel Hodgson's voice during the 'Robot Roll Call'", as they are not obviously true. (The voiceover for the Roll Call is not visually tied to anyone and is electronically processed, making its owner unclear. We need a reliable source that points out that it's Joel.) Try to think in terms of general readership, not MST3K megafans, when considering whether something is "obvious".

Please note that, collectively, Wikipedia is pushing back on trivia sections, for several reasons. A few: (A) they are jarringly different from the encyclopedic prose expected of editors; (B) they encourage unsourced tidbits often only tangentially connected to the subject; (C) the attention devoted to them tends to suck the blood from the rest of the article, like a melon-sized tumor, so that editors spend too much time gossiping about the show rather than improving the main article. Remember that not everything that is true is necessarily encyclopedic. (See the Verifiability introduction for why this is.) Wikipedia cannot and should not be the best source of trivia about a subject. Special-interest sites will always do this job better, as they specialize in their subjects, and don't have Wikipedia's requirements for sourcing and verifiability. (You won't believe how hard it was even to get dates for many of the current references; webmasters and contributors, almost universally inexperienced in publishing, seem to have no clue how important it is to date published material.) In the end, the goal is to make this article worthy of an encyclopedia. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've just added a new section, "Characteristic elements", which should be able to collect some of the trivia into a more meaningful text. For instance, the "Theater silhouette" element is designed to incorporate any sighting of the infamous silhouette in other shows. (I'm hoping to condense the trivia text down to simple episode mentions with concise details in the footnotes, to avoid unnecessary clutter but still provide the detail. That's what footnotes are for, eh?) I formatted this new section in a somewhat different way as a compromise between two problems:
 * I'm trying to avoid creating more wiki headings, as they add clutter without significant benefit.
 * I also want to prevent the ugliness of long, multiple-level bulleted sections, which is aesthetically displeasing in a proper encyclopedia article.
 * Using the dict-def style gives us some flexibility, although I'm not sure how it will turn out. I may be crazy, but I have hopes we can clean this thing up to go for Featured Article status "in the not-too-distant future". &#9786; ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge from "Doorway Sequence"
I have merged the contents of the soon-to-be-ex-article "Doorway Sequence" with this article, as decided in Articles for deletion/Doorway Sequence. Per GFDL requirements, here is the edit history of that article:


 * (cur) (last) 07:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC) Dcljr (Talk | contribs) (fix movie title link -- maybe someone should actually merge this now ;)
 * (cur) (last) 07:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC) 124.168.14.214 (Talk)
 * (cur) (last) 00:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC) Umsner (Talk | contribs)
 * (cur) (last) 06:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC) Gareth Aus (Talk | contribs) (Category:Mystery Science Theater 3000)
 * (cur) (last) 05:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC) Crzrussian (Talk | contribs) (close afd, merge to Mystery Science Theater 3000)
 * (cur) (last) 18:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Umsner (Talk | contribs)
 * (cur) (last) 00:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Artw (Talk | contribs) (Listed for deletion)
 * (cur) (last) 16:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Umsner (Talk | contribs)

I pasted the full content into the new section "Characteristic elements" for easy historical identification, but then blended its material into a more comprehensive text. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Copyright issues
I visited this page with a view to understanding the copyright issues involved with this show. Were all the films cleared legally (originally, as the show matured)? Or is the show somehow considered a derived work significaltly different from the original work? Etc., etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Malak2000 (talk • contribs) 13:22, 5 September 2006


 * Best Brains secured the rights to use films and shorts for the original broadcasts and a limited number of reruns and syndication. It had to renew these rights whenever they expired, which is one major reason why, as the show went on, some episodes fell off the rerun list at different times. (This was very noticeable in the Sci Fi era once the original run finished, because toward the end, there were only a dozen or so episodes to which BBI still had rights to show the films within the episodes.)


 * Basically, there are three elements to MST3K copyright issues:
 * Best Brains has a copyright on each of its episodes.
 * Each film and short has a copyright held by its creators or whomever the copyright was transferred to.
 * Rhino has a copyright on the VHS and DVD prints of the episodes.
 * Therefore, if a MSTied film has gone into the public domain, the film itself can be copied legally, but neither the MST3K episode nor the VHS or DVD from Rhino (if one exists) may be, just because of the film's status. If your question is about the original films, this gets complicated rather quickly. Some are probably in the public domain; many are not. I am trying to compile a copyright-status list for each of the films and shorts, but it's going to take a while. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Cheers Jeff -- exactly the kinda info I was after -- I was assuming it would be interesting & convolted! Malak2000 12:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed Google Video mention
I've removed the new paragraph that mentions MST3K material being available on Google Video, because the assumption that a Google user called "Best Brains Inc." is no less naive than assuming that a Wikipedia user named "Crow T. Robot" would be Trace Beaulieu or Bill Corbett. The fact that this "Best Brains Inc." user has uploaded the entire episode "Space Mutiny", which is currently available on Rhino DVD, is a near-guarantee that this user is acting illegally, as even BBI is unlikely to have the rights to make Rhino's commercial product freely available on the web. Just to be sure, I've emailed Barb Tebben at BBI to confirm this. Meanwhile, we shouldn't be providing links to almost certain copyright violations. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Paul Chaplin
I removed the two links to Paul Chaplin because they automatically redirect to another Paul Chaplin, a Canadian politician. Our Paul, it appears, does not have a Wiki page of his own.

Midwestern feel?
What the hell is a "Midwestern Feel"? Unless you can answer that and provide solid examples, it has no buisness in the article. - Plasticbadge 21:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Playstation game?
Does anyone know what relationship the Playstation game Offworld Interceptor Extreme has to MST3K? Each of the cutscenes in the game has an MST3K look and feel.


 * It was just an homage. The developers had no contact or input from Best Brains. Reverend Raven 19:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

MSTing
Should this be merged in and/or renamed?--Rayc 04:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that it should remain a seperate article. It's primarly describing a type of fan fiction and the article is more related to fan fiction than MST3K. Reverend Raven 15:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, then you should say so on the AfD, since it looks like it might get merged here.--Rayc 23:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * For everyone's convenience, the AfD mentioned is Articles for deletion/MSTing. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Hellzapoppin
Does anyone want to give credit to (yes 1941) for the first instance of wisecracking commentatry of a film within a film?
 * Not in this article we don't.JohnnyRush10 02:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Video and DVD Release Section
Anyone else think that this section would be more appropriate to move to the List of Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes page? Seems like featured lists of TV episodes usually incude this info on their page, and it would be a good opportunity to tidy up and trim the size of the main article a bit. Discuss... MArcane 02:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't argue merging that section into the List would be a good thing to do. While this article is long, the list of episodes is longer still, and that's not exactly information that corollates to the topic.  I agree with the thought, that the article needs minimizing, this wouldn't exactly be the right way.JohnnyRush10 02:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Minor Characters
In order to shorten the article, there should be a page for minor characters. They can be named here, but no information, or at least very very reduced.JohnnyRush10 02:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Sabrina
Not that long ago, somebody added a line to the article, stating that a character on Sabrina, the Teenage Witch turned into a nerd and suddenly felt the urge to watch every episode of MST3K. It looks like it was taken down, then put back later. I don't have any particular connection to that debate, but it is worth noting that Frank Conniff was Executive Story Editor for Sabrina. --A. 18:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Mutual contemporaneous influences
I'm surprised that no one has even mentioned this show's enormous influence on VH1 and MTV in pop-up videos and Beavis and Butthead, respectively. Excerpt from review of James Gleick's book Faster from Barnes & Noble.com: "TV producers know fits happened: Witness the phenomenon of ironic commentary overlaid on what once passed for hot programming. Beavis and Butthead commenting on last year's videos on MTV, Pop-up Video captions annotating last year's videos on VH-1, and the best of the artform, Mystery Science Theater 3000, ridiculing old science fiction movies. These things, once cutting edge, are now too slow and boring and old fashioned to watch without a separate show overlaid on top of them."

The Office
In the last episode of the NBC show (5/10), Michael Scott makes what is likely a reference to "Eegah" when he quips "Watch out for snakes" while walking near a lake. There's nothing more to the line that that, so it certainly has to be a reference, but it still may not be conclusive enough to warrant inclusion in the "allusions" section here. Thoughts? Km9000 23:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree...interesting, but not conclusive enough to warrant inclusion in the article.MArcane 23:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Only to us MSTies would this be so readily considered an allusion. Most people would consider this good advice when communing with nature. Even if we had reason to believe that The Office writers were likely to make such an obscure allusion (obscure to most of the world, that is), drawing such inferences is forbidden original research. We need documented evidence from reliable sources. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 05:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I wonder if Steve Carell is actually a MSTie, because not only did he say 'Watch out for snakes' in the above mentioned episode, but his character in the movie The 40-Year Old Virgin had a MST poster in his room. Fireballil 07:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Primetime Emmy Nomination For Outstanding Individual Achievement in Writing for a Variety or Music Program in 1995 and 1996
Shouldn't the two Emmy nominations from a few years ago be mentioned somewhere in the article even though it lost both times to Dennis Miller Live's staff? It's still a pretty big achievement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.100.42.239 (talk • contribs) 18:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Already there, in the Reactions section.--NapoliRoma 20:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Because it was there before, and then taken off. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.100.42.239 (talk • contribs) 18:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (please sign your comments)
 * I've added an Awards section that mentions the Emmy nominations as well as a little more info on the Peabody. I also added noms for the Saturn Awards, and of course, the prestigious CableACE nominations.--NapoliRoma 20:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Mistakes
this repeats the usual mistakes. I live in Minneapolis, and have since 1984. Yes, it started on Thanksgiving, but the first episode was "Thunderbirds Are Go", snippets of which were used in the early openings. The show went several months, before it was listed as anything but a movie. Sorry to say, many of the staff wasn't involved quite yet, and so their book, is riddled with mistakes, since it was written by folks who weren't involved until later. They always mention "Revenge of the Mysterons", but I never saw that. I was watching anything that seemed like it would be appropriate, for months, hoping for episodes. I'd think that Jim Mallon, Joel Hodgson, and the rest of the early cast, would have a better grasp of the history, yet I don't believe that any of them were involved with the book, and it shows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Judexdot1 (talk • contribs) 18:54, July 19, 2007


 * Jim was involved with the book, as was Kevin Murphy (who was part of the crew from the beginning). If you have any VHS recordings of these early episodes, or television listings, it would help verify your claims. Reverend Raven 17:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, the KTMA episode "Gamera vs. Barugon" (K04, the earliest extant full episode) shows in its opening credits only two brief scenes from a MSTied movie (during the words "Joel says when you got lemons"). These both appear to be not from Thunderbirds but from Invaders from the Deep (MST3K episode K01), a feature-length combination of episodes from a different Supermarionation series, Stingray. Invaders at least includes "The Big Gun" (in which the blockheaded guy appears; I don't recall offhand if the crab-logoed vehicle does), but I haven't been able to identify any other eps because (A) all we have is that 2.5-second glimpse, and (B) IMDb's official page is virtually empty. An IMDb user — not a reliable source — says the four episodes that went into Invaders were "Hostages of the Deep" [1.04], "The Big Gun" [1.06], "Emergency Marineville" [1.11], and "Deep Heat" [1.27] (ep numbers courtesy of TV.com's Stringray (1964) ep list). By the way, my own statements here are largely original research and not a reliable souce, either.


 * I don't believe any episode of MST3K ever featured a scene from any Thunderbirds show or film. The sales tape, which also features a few seconds of material gleaned from test-episode "The Green Slime" (K00), does show a Thunderbirds scene, strongly suggesting the KTMA crew did at least a test version, but I don't believe we have any reliable source yet that says that a Thunderbirds episode was made, let alone aired. This general problem of divergent recall among editors is exactly why we need reliable sources. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Musical numbers
Why is there no reference to the various musical numbers during host segments? They seemed to be in almost every Joel episode, and Mike had a few pieces during his Comedy Central years. Tenk you veddy much. --Wack'd Talk to me! • Admire my handiwork! 17:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, nothing on the letter readings, either. Just saying. Tenk you veddy much. --Wack'd Talk to me! • Admire my handiwork! 17:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep circulating those tapes!
I think the phrase "Keep circulating those tapes!" from the closing credits deserves a mention. I don't know what "era" that belongs to, so I can't add it myself. I think it belongs in the history as a reason the show had enough fans to drive Comedy Central onto cable systems and as an example of viral marketing from before the term was invented. Chester320 (talk) 07:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sure lots of folks can add text about this, but few bother to add reliable sources, so here's a book mention of the practice:
 * Just edit this discussion, copy the formatted citation template, and wrap it in a   element to use as a source. But first read the text to see what it might contribute to this article (and perhaps to Viral marketing, too). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 08:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Just edit this discussion, copy the formatted citation template, and wrap it in a   element to use as a source. But first read the text to see what it might contribute to this article (and perhaps to Viral marketing, too). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 08:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)