Talk:Mystery of faith

Opening heading
This is the: 'Mysterium Fidei': Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.

WP:UE?
As encyclical title Mysterium Fidei fine (that already exists), but as a phrase? Has this been tested according to Google Scholar/Books to establish that English is not "commonly used"? This looks like a simple quote from Latin texts that would be mystery of the faith per WP:UE. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:29, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Mysterium Fidei (encyclical)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved to Mystery of faith. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:00, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Mysterium fidei (Latin phrase) → mystery of the faith – Google Books and Google Scholar suggest that Mysterium Fidei capital F is indeed used for 1965 encyclical, but the duplicate Wikipedia article entry "mystery of the faith" is just 1 Timothy 3:9 in the Vulgate habentes mysterium fidei in conscientia pura and therefore generic by WP:article titles and MOS:COMMONALITY and no need not to be in English, as per most Google Books and Google Scholar hits for the term. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:45, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The article is largely, if not principally, about the use of the phrase in the Roman Rite Mass, where "mysterium fidei" corresponds not to "mystery of the faith" in English, but to "The mystery of faith", as in the official English translation introduced in most English-speaking countries in November 2011. (Formerly, since 1973, "Let us proclaim the mystery of faith" was used.)  Also as a theological term "mysterium fidei" corresponds to English "a mystery of faith" at least as much as to "a mystery of the faith".  In view of the controversy there was about the use of "Let us proclaim the mystery of faith" in the liturgy, it does not seem appropriate either to move the article to "Mystery of faith" or "The mystery of faith" (still less to "Let us prclaim the mystery of faith").  Leaving it in Latin allows for a variety of English equivalents.  Esoglou (talk) 14:58, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Esoglou. Either way, at 288,000x hits to 41,000 hits in Google Books its evident that either English alternative has better traction than the Latin. And the article currently doesn't have sourced discussion of the controversy you mention. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see what English translation could cover all the meanings given to the Latin phrase. Apart from those given in the article, there is, as you noted, also the incipit of an encyclical, which is not mentioned.  Esoglou (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Support. "Mystery of faith" would be better. This phrase is from the Vulgate, so it's certainly translatable. Here is Douay-Rheims: "Holding the mystery of faith in a pure conscience." KJV is a translation of the Greek original rather than the Vulgate. Kauffner (talk) 02:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * REname to Mystery of faith. This indefinite form is a more suitable translation.  The original of 1 Timothy 3:9 was in Greek, not Latin, so that a Latin term is (at most) appropriate for use in the Catholic Church, whereas the concept being a biblical one is a universal one to all Christians of all denominations.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:50, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

How make the article fit the new title?
I leave it to those who changed the title to find a solution about what to put in the lead. The present lead, "The mystery of faith (mysterium fidei) is a term found in the New Testament which figures in the Catholic and other Christian traditions. It is given in the Vulgate and in the Tridentine mass in Latin as mysterium fidei. The King James Bible gives the phrase as, the mystery of the faith", is false. The four-word phrase in question (which the lead refers to as a "term") is not found in the New Testament unless by "the New Testament" you mean the Rheims translation (alone) of the New Testament. None of the other English translations, as far as I can see, has that phrase. Catholic Bible translations into English have "the mystery of the faith" (JB, NJB, NAB) in 1 Timothy 3:9, exactly like KJV and NKJV. The Catholic Ronald Knox translation also has "the faith that has been revealed" as its translation from the Vulgate's "mysterium fidei", not directly from the original Greek, "τὸ μυστήριον τῆς πίστεως". This original phrase of the New Testament can mean "the mystery of faith" just as much as "the mystery of the faith", but, apart of course from the Rheims translation, all the English translations that I have seen, even those that, like the Knox translation, paraphrase the Greek and Latin phrase, especially the word μυστήριον/mysterium, all chose to use the definite article in reference to "the faith". There are no grounds for saying that the use of "mysterium fidei" in the Roman Rite Mass (not only in its Tridentine form) is a quotation from 1 Timothy 3:9 ("3:19" is an obvious typo): the liturgical phrase is surely about the Eucharist, the phrase in 1 Timothy is not. That the New Testament "figures in the Catholic and other Christian traditions" is a truism.

It is not just the lead that requires a solution. The whole article, as it now stands, is about three disparate matters that in Latin could each be linked to a single phrase but cannot in English. The theological meaning is unrelated to. The liturgical phrase, in English "The mystery of faith" (even the former English liturgical phrase had "Let us proclaim the mystery of faith"), is related neither to 1 Timothy 3:9 nor to the theological meaning (which refers to many mysteries of faith). I leave it to those who changed the title to solve the puzzle of how to put all three together in a single article about the English phrase "mystery of faith". Leaving aside the theological use (which is unsourced, since the phrase is not used in the cited section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the Trinity), the other two uses are not about the phrase "mystery of faith".

Because of these difficulties, should we rather restore the old title? Esoglou (talk) 07:54, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, this article should be moved to "The mystery of faith" to correspond with the English version of the liturgy. The are four books about Catholicism entitled "The mystery of faith", here, here, here, and here. So despite the varying translations, that exact form seems to be the common usage. Kauffner (talk) 16:26, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that the article should be about the phrase in the liturgy. If that liturgical phrase is put in English, there is no more justification for adding the 1 Timothy phrase than for adding information about the four books you talk about.  In fact, there is much greater justification for including the three books whose title is explicitly meant to refer to the liturgical phrase (excluding therefore the book that is not about Catholicism), since there is no relationship whatever between the liturgical phrase and 1 Timothy 3:9 other than a mere similarity (but not identity) in the words of the translation in some (not all) English Bibles.  On the contrary, if the phrase were left in Latin, the article could then freely either return to being entirely about the liturgical phrase, as it was until one editor recently inserted information about the 1 Timothy phrase, or it could retain that insertion.  As long as the liturgical phrase is put in English, there is really no place in the article for the 1 Timothy phrase.
 * Why should this one liturgical phrase (for which music is given in the Roman Missal) be in an English translation, when Wikipedia as a rule does not translate Roman-Rite liturgical phrases, whether provided with music or not: see Asperges, Dominus vobiscum, Confiteor, Kyrie, Oremus, Gloria in excelsis Deo, Credo, Orate Fratres, Gloria Patri, Sursum corda, Sanctus, Pax (liturgy), Agnus Dei, Ite missa est, Benedicamus Domino?  Esoglou (talk) 19:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The Latin phrase is the same in the liturgy as in the Vulgate. The liturgy is quoting the Vulgate, at least according to this author: "We have seen that the Mysterium Fedei is confessed by St. Paul...the introduction of these words into the Cannon of Mass..." How the phrase is translated is a separate issue. "The mystery of faith" was a catch phrase long before 1973, as you can see here. So I think the underlying Bible phrase is the main topic, even though I used the English liturgy as a source for a standard translation.
 * Yeah, there's lots of non-English stuff on "English" Wiki that needs to be translated. I'm plugging away with Berlin Hauptbahnhof now, while iio is moving the Hebrew.
 * As for the current lede, IMO surveying the Bible translations is a minor aspect of the issue, not one the opening paragraph should focus on. The modification of the liturgy that was made this year is a modest adjustment and should not given undue emphasis. Kauffner (talk) 03:05, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Kauffner, what do you envisage as the subject of the article that you have now unilaterally, without getting support from anyone, named "The mystery of faith"? The use of this phrase in just two old English translations of 1 Timothy, in contrast to the wording in more modern translations, deserves at most a passing mention.  There is no evidence that the words "mysterium fidei" were included in the Canon of the Mass as an echo of 1 Timothy, however 1 Timothy is translated.  The book by Arthur Edward Waite that you cite does not state what you claim.  Read it again and see that it does not say that the Canon of the Mass is quoting 1 Timothy.  Even if it did, it would be outdone by the Catechism of the Council of Trent, which interprets the expression in the Canon of the Mass as a reference to the transubstantiation of the wine, something that 1 Timothy is obviously not referring to.  So what is to be the subject of the Wikipedia article on "the mystery of faith"?  One thing it should speak of is what Waite, the authority you cite, says of "the mystery of faith".  Here is a list of books of his that treat of the mystery of faith.  The mystery of faith, he says, is pre-Christian, found in the Jewish Zoharic tradition: see this review of his The Secret Doctrine of Israel. There is much such material that fits into and must therefore be included in an article entitled "The mystery of faith", maybe enough to make the use of "the mystery of faith" in correspondence to "mysterium fidei" in the Roman Order of Mass a relatively minor section.  That is the kind of article that you are creating.  I, on the other hand, think that the use of the liturgical phrase deserves an article on its own as much as Confiteor does.  Esoglou (talk) 08:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * So where are you going with this? Are you going work on the article, or leave the lede as a list of Bible translations? Kauffner (talk) 11:13, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * As you know, a lead should summarize the article and awake interest in it. The article is at present without any lead.  What is at the beginning of the article is simply some objective information that draws out more fully what was in the text that was previously masquerading as a lead.  If you think that the article that you have created on the wide topic of "the mystery of faith" is worth having in Wikipedia, you should provide it with a lead.  In my view, such a vague topic is not worth a Wikipedia article.  Esoglou (talk) 11:36, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Section on Vulgate
The Coomaraswamy citation is quite unrelated to 1 Timothy 3:9. It is a protest against the removal of the liturgical phrase "Mysterium fidei" from the midst of the words of consecration and to placing it where it is followed by one or other of the three acclamations by the people. Esoglou (talk) 11:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Revive an article on "Mysterium fidei" as used in the Canon of the Mass?
Since nobody else has done it, I have expanded the content of the article so as to go some way towards making it fit the new title that has been imposed on it.

The redirect from Mysterium fidei (Latin phrase) to the present article seems inappropriate, since only the last part of this article is about that Latin phrase, which I think deserves an article as part of the series that also includes Asperges, Dominus vobiscum, Confiteor, Kyrie, Oremus, Gloria in excelsis Deo, Credo, Orate Fratres, Gloria Patri, Sursum corda, Sanctus, Pax (liturgy), Agnus Dei, Ite missa est, Benedicamus Domino. Should the article on Mysterium fidei (Latin phrase) be revived? In a separate article, what is here could be expanded in several ways, including giving information on the objections raised by certain traditionalist Catholics to moving the phrase from the middle of the words of consecration of the chalice to immediately after. But such an expansion would be out of place here, since it would make even more disproportionate the space taken up by just one meaning of the English phrase the article is about. Esoglou (talk) 16:48, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

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