Talk:Mystic chord

Synthetic
why is this called synthetic chord when the article uses mystic? – ishwar  (speak)  03:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of music theory and harmony, including many aspects of modern harmony, and to me a synthetic chord is any one of a number of harmonies which can be regarded as invented for the occasion, or as the consistent basis for a new harmonic language, and which don't fit the patterns of normal chords in traditional harmony. In other words, "synthetic chord" refers not to any particular chord, but to a whole class of chords. (The chord under discussion is one of that class, but that's neither here nor there, because it is incorrect to suggest that this particular chord is known as *the* synthetic chord.)

This article should be retitled to either "Mystic chord" or "Prometheus/Promethean chord". I would do it myself right now if I knew how to, but, since I'm still fairly new to Wikipedia, I'll have to leave it for now. The present article, "Synthetic chord", should be kept for a broader coverage of all synthetic chords, when one is written. (I might consider writing it myself one day, since I believe I could write at least a broad introduction to the topic - but that's for a later time.) M.J.E. 08:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. WTF is this "synthetic" nonsense? We're talking about a C7#11 chord. Jazz guys use this all the time. Pink floyd uses this chord a lot. Everyone in the world writing music after 1935 uses this chord all the time.


 * The article for "synthetic chord" says a synthetic chord is a chord that can't be analyzed in terms of "traditional music theory." Again guys, this is just a C7#11 chord - LOL. Maybe they didn't teach you that in Renaissance Counterpoint IV, but the world has moved on past that.


 * Let's just call the chord what it is. It's an application of the lydian dominant scale, which is a mode of melodic minor. That's it. Maybe it's a "modal" chord, or something, but to say that it can't be analyzed in terms of traditional music theory is foolish.


 * 68.46.107.212 (talk) 05:34, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Synthetic Chord article, lacking a really solid definition even of its own term, is perhaps not the best basis for an argument, as it’s already tagged as inconsistent in its use of “traditional”, ie., ill-defined. CF: the 4th mode of (ascending) melodic minor (for one name of it) is considered widely to be a synthetic scale. So, define traditional first. Might be “inside the major-minor paradigm”. J Civil 19:01, 15 December 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jan civil (talk • contribs)

Oops.
"diminished octave --> augmented seventh"

Thanks for correcting this, Andeeze2003. I meant "augmented seventh", but somehow got my thinking on this reversed and wrongly typed "diminished octave". M.J.E. (talk) 10:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Title: Mystic vs Prometheus
By far the most common English usage appears to be "mystic" rather than "Prometheus" or "Promethean" chord and the article is currently title appropriately ("mystic"). Hyacinth (talk) 19:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Media: Midi rendition
I think this page needs a Midi rendition of the chord. I could provide it, but I haven't figured out how to make an upload and link to it in the article. Rikypedia (talk) 01:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * There is an .ogg. Hyacinth (talk) 02:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It didn't show up when I left my note here. It does now. Thanks. Rikypedia (talk) 14:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed: Qualities
One interesting quality of the chord is that it contains various kinds of quartal triads - but certainly not all possible ones, unless octave doublings of certain notes are used, or various inversions of the chord adopted, or enharmonic notation used for some notes, which may not be justifiable harmonically. Here are the quartal triads found directly in the chord in its pure form. Constituent notes of each triad are named from the bass upwards, and the qualities of the 4ths also named upwards:


 * C F# Bb - augmented, diminished 4ths
 * F# Bb E - diminished, augmented 4ths
 * Bb E A - augmented, perfect 4ths
 * E A D - perfect, perfect 4ths

Quartal triads not represented here are:


 * Augmented - augmented (which would result in an augmented seventh, such as C - B#)
 * Diminished - diminished (which would effectively be an augmented triad)
 * Diminished - perfect (this would be a minor triad in first inversion with the lowest note enharmonically notated differently from usual triad notation)
 * Perfect - diminished (major triad in second inversion with the top note enharmonically notated)
 * Perfect - augmented.

If the notes of the Mystic chord are rearranged or inverted so that they are no longer spaced all in fourths, then it is possible to derive most of these other quartal triads.

All four kinds of tertian triad can be found in the Mystic chord, although, because of its spacing in fourths, the tertian triads will not be in close spacing or not necessarily in root position. They are as follows:


 * major (D, F#, A)
 * minor (A, C, E)
 * augmented (D, F#, Bb)
 * diminished (F#, A, C)

In Scriabin's usage of harmonies derived from the Mystic chord, quartal harmonies tend to result more naturally than tertian ones. The presence of the various tertian triads is not an important fact in Scriabin's harmonic language.

I removed the above because NOT and recent work which emphasizes the centric and non-quartal quality of Scriabin's work. Hyacinth (talk) 22:29, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

not a "mystic" chord
I don't think this chord is mystic or whatever... If we group the notes as triads : C, F♯, B♭, E, A, D becomes B♭ D F♯ A C E

It's an eleventh chord with augmented fifth and fourth. We can found it on the third degree of the minor melodic scale. Here it's a G minor melodic scale.

Example in A minor, We have A B C D E F G# (the 7th degree is major). With the melodic alteration, the F (6th degree) is augmented too. The third degree chord is C E G# B D F#. It's also a eleventh chord with augmented fifth and fourth.

It's uncommon, but not mystic. What do you think ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boris Christ (talk • contribs) 14:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, that doesn't really matter. It's the "Mystic" chord because it is said to be. I mean, in reality, it may be no more mystic than C minor, but it had a sort of mystical significance to Scriabin so there you go. Tah Dah ... Mystic Chord! Gingermint (talk) 00:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, and interesting dissection of the chord. Thanks! Gingermint (talk) 00:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

First, what is the definition of mystic? According to Merriam-Webster: 1 : mystical 1a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence  2 : of or relating to mysteries or esoteric rites : occult 3 : of or relating to mysticism or mystics 4 a : mysterious b : obscure, enigmatic c : inducing a feeling of awe or wonder d : having magical properties Arguably the chord fits some of these qualities for at least one somewhat influential person, for example having been used in ritual by Scriabin, and considered enigmatic and magical by him, induced a feeling of "awe" and "wonder".

Second, "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source (see below), not whether editors think it is true." (WP:V) Unfortunately you may find something mundane or even offensive, but that alone doesn't necessarily make it unworthy of inclusion. Hyacinth (talk) 06:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

More Technical
I think there could be more of an analysis of the chord and maybe a little less shying away from musical jargon. Gingermint (talk) 00:28, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Anything specific in mind? Hyacinth (talk) 14:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Lydian b7 Scale
The scale the chord implies is called a Lydian b7 in jazz parlance - a C major with an F# instead of an F and a Bb instead of a B. This is also informally called the Cartoon Scale because of its use in animation dating back many decades, but, perhaps most recognizably, used in theme  from The Simpsons by Danny Elfman. Starting on the F# it is also known as the Altered Scale, as it can be used with an F#7 and includes all the altered tensions - b9, #9, #11, b13. Contrary to what the article implies, it is not associated with the classic octatonic (symmetric diminished) scale of alternating half and whole steps as you would not have a C, D, and E in the same octatonic scale. NoMinorChords (talk) 22:59, 18 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The article cites a source for the claim that the octatonic scale is associated with the chord. Hyacinth (talk) 16:08, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Removed: Uncited
The above was removed as uncited and summarized elsewhere. Hyacinth (talk) 19:11, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Nicolas Slonimsky compares the synthetic chord to a "typical terminal" chord of jazz, rag-time, and rock, the major tonic chord with an added sixth and ninth (if the root is C: C, G, E, A, D), and to Debussy's post-Wagnerian "enhanced" dominant seventh chords. If one moves the F♯ up to G and the A up to B♭ (already present), one is left with a familiar dominant ninth chord.

Removed: Impure
The above was removed as containing an added tone. Hyacinth (talk) 22:47, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Jonny Greenwood's piece Popcorn Superhet Receiver, written for string orchestra in 2005, opens on a mystic chord with an added G natural.

Duke Ellington Sheet Music Error?
Apologies, I'm not an avid Wikipedian. I just wanted to note that, as far as I can tell, the chord labeled vii in the Duke Ellington sheet music should have the roman numeral vi instead; key of D, spelt B F# D.

If someone wants to fight the corner of it being a rootless vii minor eleventh flat nine in third inversion, I guess you could do that, but I think calling it a regular old B minor and labelling it vi makes more sense. With that in mind, the V/vii chord would then instead be V/vi.

This preview page of the real book: seems to fit my analysis - that is, the progression is D - F#7 - Bm... and thus I - V/vi - vi. I - V/vii - vii would instead be D - G# - C#m...

Cheers 82.15.110.8 (talk) 10:38, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

“French sixth”
The literal sixth of this spelling will be F#-Dx (double sharp). So, not sure this particular inclusion is so helpful. I don’t wish to do a hasty and inelegant edit, but I’m probably not the only one who’ll catch that. J Civil 19:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jan civil (talk • contribs)