Talk:Mystical Seven (Wesleyan)/Archive 1

Discussion pointer
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Secret Societies. --Geniac (talk) 14:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Article name
I've removed this text from the intro: "(It is due to wikipedia convention alone that this article is mistitled.)". If the article is mistitled, it can be moved. --Geniac (talk) 13:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've removed the following from the article: Properly written as "Mystical 7". .  If the name is written Mystical 7, then get a reference and move the article that name.  Exploding Boy (talk) 02:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Restored the line. You're pulling out challenged material that was only challenged this month. It would be a shame if you were taking out hostility on the article. Thaïs Alexandrina (talk) 03:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * What hostility? I know no-one who edits this article.  I removed it for the very good reason that if the society's name is "properly" written as "Mystical 7," as the sentence claims, then the article should be located at "Mystical 7" as well.  The problem being that that particular claim is tagged with a "fact" tag, which means it's unsubstantiated.  This is a big problem, because a claim is being made that the article, which is currently located at "Mystical SEVEN" instead, is misnamed.  Until this claim can be substantiated, it shouldn't be in the article.  Exploding Boy (talk) 04:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You're arguing that it is a big problem, therefore it should be supressed from the article. That makes no sense. And you're only editing here after being disproven at the Administrator's Notebook page. Thaïs Alexandrina (talk) 16:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * First of all, please stop reverting. Second, I was not "disproven"; every person who posted on AN disagreed with you; feel free to review that section here.  Third, what I actually said was that if a claim that the article's title is incorrect is unsubstantiated, as with this claim, it should be removed from the article until such time as a reliable source can be found.  Please check WP:SOURCE, in particular the quote by Jimbo Wales, which reads:


 * I am therefore removing that claim and asking you to refrain from reverting it until a reliable source can be found. Your editing style is becoming quite disruptive.  Please review our polices, including WP:CIVL and WP:RS.  Thank you.  Exploding Boy (talk) 16:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just in case it's not clear where the consensus lies, I support the removal of the unsourced statement. As was pointed out on the administrators' noticeboard, scholarly references use the wordings interchangeably, which is further argument that it should not be included (i.e., beyond just the reason that its unsourced). justinfr (talk) 17:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Verifiability is quite clear on this: The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. If a reliable source is found for that statement, it can be added back in. Until then, Wikipedia will not be harmed by its absence.  S HEFFIELD S TEEL TALK 17:10, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

References: more detail
Currently this article has the following endnotes.


 * 1. ^ Price, 25.
 * 3. ^ Price, 16.
 * 17. ^ Price, 54 ff.

The immense university library across the street from my office hasn't heard of this book. Persons with interlibrary loan privileges are welcome to show me up. :>  Also, it is probably self-published:. (Uh-oh!) Incidentally, reading the Wyatt-Greene paper all the way through, I find many paragraphs devoted to the hypothesis that Price was writing a manifesto rather than a research document.


 * 4. ^ Stevens, 356.
 * 9. ^ Stevens, 364.
 * 10. ^ Stevens, 179.
 * 13. ^ Stevens, 178.

This one seems to be real: see for example here.


 * 20. ^ Wade, John Donald (1924). Augustus Baldwin Longstreet: A Study of the Development of Culture in the South. New York: Macmillan, 254 - 264. 

Also real.


 * 2. ^ a b Judson, Robert (2002-04-19). "Secret societies: past & present", Wesleyan Argus. 
 * 6. ^ a b Sansing, David G. (1999). The University of Mississippi: A Sesquicentennial History. Jackson, MS: University Press of Mississippi, 63. 
 * 7. ^ Wyatt-Greene, Benjamin. "Mystical 7: A History". Wesleyan History Project. Retrieved on 2008-07-21.
 * 8. ^ "James R. Thomas". Emory University Housing. Retrieved on 2008-07-21.
 * 11. ^ (1885) Constitution of the Mystic Seven Fraternity. Charlottesville, Virginia: Blakey & Prout, Steam Book & Job Printers., available at University of Illinois fraternity archives; see finding aid at http://www.library.uiuc.edu/archives/uasfa/4102055.pdf
 * 12. ^ (1917) Catalogue of Beta Theta Pi, 9, vi. 
 * 14. ^ See the 1866 Olla Podrida.
 * 15. ^ See the May 1868 Wesleyan Argus.
 * 16. ^ See the 1889 Olla Podrida.
 * 19. ^ Careers published in Nicolson, F. W., Orange Judd, eds. (1883). Alumni Record of Wesleyan University, Middletown, Conn.. Middletown, Connecticut: Press of Avery Rand. 

Most likely not independent of the organizations/schools to which this article relates (see thread above).


 * 18. ^ "Members of the Mystical 7". The American Minerva (2003-07-01). Retrieved on 2008-07-21.

By all appearances self-published; arguably not independent of Wesleyan University; redundant with other member lists as noted above (assuming those are relevant in the first place); possible BLP concerns.


 * 5. ^ (1844) Social Reform: An Address Before the Society of the Mystical Seven, August 7, 1844. Boston: Waite, Pearce, & Co., 42. 

Exists but may or may not be independent.

To summarize: the organization itself looks notable, but a fair fraction of the details in this article can be included only if corroborated by independent sources. Xeriphas1994 (talk) 23:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Addendum: I went back and removed reference 18 for the reasons noted in both threads on this page. It looks like two edits but it's really one &mdash; hit the save button by accident.


 * I don't yet know how to address the point about corroboration &mdash; except, as Tjarrett says, by somehow finding copies of these huge series of 19th-century documents (which might only exist in the basement of each school's library) and finding the one page that might point the way to an external publication. Other ideas are welcome.    Xeriphas1994 (talk) 22:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

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