Talk:Mytilos

Albanian name?

 * Please make yourself acquainted with WP:BRD: When your Bold edit here was Reverted here, your next step should be to start a Discussion in the talk page. Please also read WP:CONSENSUS and WP:EDITWAR. I have reverted back to the current consensus version and started the discussion for you.

You argue that you have added the visibly more complete term in locally used language. For one thing, the locally used language today is irrelevant for the description of a person who lived one and a half millenium before modern Albanian is first mentioned. Also, is hard to see that this should be the "more complete term".

Also, your mention of vandalism shows that you have not grasped what the term means in Wikipedia. Please read WP:VANDALISM, especially WP:NOTVANDALISM, before you accuse other editors.

In Wikipedia, we follow the usage of reliable sources in English, see WP:RS. If you can show that reliable English-language sources use the modern Albanian version of the name, it will be added. If not, it stays out. --T*U (talk) 08:17, 10 May 2019 (UTC)


 * If you can show that reliable English-language sources use the modern Albanian version of the name, it will be added. So i added one. My main laguages are German and Albanian so that i cannot understand a hundred percent of what you are talking about in that technical terminology of wikipediia. But i am a hundred percent convinced that your argument of that the albanian language is first mentioned one and a half millenium later shows that you have not read enough albanian literature. Otherwise you would know that the illyrian language is just the same and mentioned much earlyer. It would be the same as if i would say that Germanic is not German(Deutsch).
 * So there is the Indogermanic Family in which we have the Germanic languages like Deutsch and earlyer eeven the Illyrian languages like the Albanian for which we have different names in several languages (Albanian: Shqip, Italian: Albanese, Turkish: Arnavut, Greek: Alvanós or in Latin language: "Illyrica") So only because the older writings just exist in latin language and use a different name for thesame language you say it does'nt exist earlyer.. and you may do the mistake that the national identity or ethnic metioning of the albanian has nothing to do with the time of the usage of the albanian/illyrian/shqip/skipetar language PowerlockeDurim (talk) 12:36, 15 June 2019 (UTC)


 * You write: If you can show that reliable English-language sources use the modern Albanian version of the name, it will be added. So i added one. It is true that you added a source, and the source is a very good one. J.J. Wilkes was an authoritative archeologist, and his book The Illyrians from 1992 is highly regarded. The problem is, however, that he does not use the modern Albanian version of the name; he refers to the Dardanian king not as "Mytili", but as Mytilus (pp. 129, 146, 177 plus two entries in the index)).
 * Regarding your arguments about the connection between the Illyrian and the Albanian language, you say that the illyrian language is just the same. That is just nonsense, since all languages change dramatically over time. As it is clearly explained in the relevant Wiki articles, there is not even a consensus among scholars that there is a relation between the Illyrian languages and the modern Albanian language. There seems to be a probability that they are related, but no certainty. We do not know many details about the Illyrian languages that became extinct several hundred years before Albanian is first mentioned, and we certainly do not know what was the name of Mytilus in his own language. If we had known, it would be relevant, but the modern Albanian version of his name is not relevant.
 * You also say that i cannot understand a hundred percent of what you are talking about in that technical terminology of wikipediia. That is fine, I believe that even people with limited knowledge of the English language can contribute to a certain degree in English Wikipedia, but it is necessary that they at least understand how English Wikipedia works. When you for the second time claim that my edits are vandalism, it shows me that you have not understood what is meant by WP:VANDALISM in Wikipedia. I have also asked you to read WP:CONSENSUS, WP:EDITWAR and WP:BRD, but have to conclude that either you have not read them or you have not understood them, since you choose to repeat your contested edit.
 * It is fine that you have come to the talk page to discuss. There are several ways to go forward. You can ask for a third opinion, see WP:3O. You can make a request for comments, see WP:RfC. What you can not do, is to repeat your addition without consensus. The burden of proof is on you, since it is you who want to add something. Regards! --T*U (talk) 14:33, 15 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for repeat and explaining. I understand and I have to admit that i did'nt read the info pages and it also may be difficult to understand my intention but i get really frustrated when somebody who does'nt speak the albanian language and also has'nt enough knowledge in albanology to understand the whole very complicated history of destruction/repression and falsification, argues that Albanian and Illyrian are not the same. There is no doubt that languages change over time and nobody declines the natural process of the transformation but it does not mean that we have to find a new name for each language after 500 years. Illyrian just became "Albanian" in the times of finding a national identity but in fact we have here a way closer connection with the Illyrian or let us say old albanian and you can see huge connections eeven to old greek which are really more noticeable for example in the other old languages like dalmatian/thracian or the fundamentally reformed modern greek. As Albanian today only the "Tosk" dialekt is officially and academically captured but my family and many others in the northern parts of mountains still belong to the older Gheg Dialect which is for sure way older and more original to the proto-IE. The fact is, that those who dont know how much repression and destruction the albanian literature has suffered from all its occupators and invasors eeven in the 20th century we have some poisoned great writers and albanologists like it was Aristidh Cola. Words like cuisine(fr) skala(lat) religion(lat) Hund(ger) gynecology(lat) altus(lat) or old Names like Troy, Zeus, Poseidon, Hera, Teuta, Afrodite etc. all can directly be translated by the Albanian language. And yes, there is not enought written and yes i cannot relay on logic but i know the language and thats why i can SEE in contrast to others and i can lay on historical facts that show us a huge destruction of the albanian language by the ottomans, later by greeks and bulgars and at last eeven by serbs.
 * It is known that some old albanian writings has been secured by the pope Clemens XI. which had been mentioning pope Saint Eleutherius (175-189) in Illyrian and Tosk language (before they have been translated to latin) but nowdays the Vatikan wont publish them. Yes this may be gossip like.. but the logic and the view about every other language like french/german/english/latin etc. that i compare with my motherlanguage is indescribably exciting and i know that it takes time for the Albanian to come after as the youngest nation (only because they had a unsuccessfully late recognition) other ethnic groups are not eeven mentioned as they should be if you look for the damlatian/anatolian because they never have been independent but that does not mean that i will believe the history which is written by their murders and occupiers. PowerlockeDurim (talk) 19:28, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * What you know (or think you know) is of no interest to Wikipedia, just as what I know (or think I know) is of no interest. The only thing Wikipedia is interested in, is what reliable, scholarly sources say, see WP:RS. Regarding the connection between Illyrian and Albanian, most scholarly sources seem to agree that there is a certain possibility that Albanian may have developed from one of the Illyrian languages. Some scholars regard the possibility as strong, others as not so strong. This uncertainty is therefore what Wikipedia reports. The problem is that we have no way of knowing what the Illyrian languages were like, since there is no written evidence. For the same reason, we do not know what was the name of Mytilus in Illyrian. We do not know what he called himself, nor do we even know what language he spoke. Unless there are reliable, scholarly sources coming up with new information, we have to leave it at that. --T*U (talk) 20:05, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * What we know is, how every Opressor of the Balkans was trying to decimate the existence of albanian people and their literature trying to get a homogenous population in favor four the greek or slav politics what happens till nowdays in wikipedia with people who reject the true no matter how obvious this might seem for a person that talks the actual language. If there is a Name like Appletreeana it is obvously leading everyone who speaks english to know the meaning of this name. And by the way your argument taht he "lived one and a half millenium before modern Albanian is first mentioned" has zero sense when you know that Illyrian in Latin means exactly Albanian so only bc of the fact that the latin were the only one writing about albanian, doesnt mean that it's not valid. But sure... sure... just go on. Truth definetly looks differend. --PowerlockeDurim (talk) 14:00, 31 August 2021 (UTC)