Talk:N11 road (Ireland)

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Anonymous Widespread Edits
Dear 159.134.55.1

If you wish to add distance in miles to articles on roads in the Republic of Ireland, please stick to the existing convention; which is to list distances either

- in km only (which is the legal unit in Ireland and is used by the National Roads Authority)

- in km first followed by the distance in in miles in brackets;

example: 40km (25 miles); not 25 miles (40km).

It is also conventional for distances over 5km to be cited in roads articles to the nearest 1km. distances as "16.35km" add nothing except clutter to articles on roads. (The same applies to miles, which if they must be inserted should be rounded).

Also if you are going to make changes of this nature across a wide range of articles (as several people are currently doing) why is it being done anonymously? You should sign the changes. (Sarah777 00:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC))

Miles Miles Miles Why?
I see that miles are been added to this article. Why? I Ireland is a metric country, and other countries don't have to suffer this clutter, namely English speaking Australia and New Zealand. And also the figure giving the spec of the road has miles ABOVE the kilometres. Should that not be the other way around as km are the dominant and USED unit in Ireland. I'd prefer if this "mi" would be removed alltogether. As no one in Ireland if shown "mi" would associate it with miles anyway. It was never used in Ireland when we used miles for roads.


 * Good question. Originally I used only metric in Irish roads articles but got tired of US and UK editors adding (or even overwriting with) miles. So to avoid edit warring I decided to add miles in secondary position per a standard format. It is indeed clutter and politically motivated clutter IMO, but there you go. You could get banned for criticising the Anglo-Saxon Establishment in Wiki. Beware! (Sarah777 22:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC))

Miles may no longer be used **officially** in this country, but a significant amount of the population (particularly older people) have grown up with them and use them in everyday speech. The speedometer in my car is miles-priority, so I need to understand miles if only in order to convert to kilometres. I'm sure there are thousands of drivers in Ireland in the same position.

Belive me, miles are not completely gone out of colliqial usage in Ireland by any strech of the imagination... --Rdd (talk) 13:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

M11 Route Marker
I've updated the M11 Route Marker to the one specified in the Traffic Signs Manual 1996 published by the Department of the Environment Heritage & Local Government. This is currently under revision by the Department of Transport which has taken over responsibility for the Traffic Signs Manual. Limbo-Messiah (talk) 22:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Also the N11 route marker is incorrect. I'll create a route marker in a few days that conform to the TSM I'll try to do this for all irish Roads Limbo-Messiah (talk) 23:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

These are not route markers - they are Start of Motorway Regulations signs and should only ever be used at the entry point to a motorway. A route confirmation sign on the mainline without distances (rarely, if ever, used on Irish motorways) would simply read "M11" without the motorway symbol.

This of course, brings up the point that the actual physically installed Start of Motorway Regulations signs on the M11 are not in the standard format - they are a wierd varient that has the "M11" above the chopsticks rather than to the left! Only other place these are installed are at the northern terminus of the M1 heading southbound, and on the northbound slip at M50 J13. --Rdd (talk) 17:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There are a handful of those "route markers" on RoI motorways; there is one on the M7 (south) past the "Naas South" junction. And one on the "M6" pictured on the N6 road article! Sarah777 (talk) 16:48, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope. They have the symbol. Sarah777 (talk) 16:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The one on the M7 at J10 is a mistake, one of a number of signage mistakes at this junction (unless they have been recitified recently when the gantries were installed), including, on the southbound on-slip, a sign that just reads "M7 (M9)" with no symbol followed by a sign with the motorway symbol on its own! The one on the M6 is not a mistake, that road is now the on-slip to the motorway and the sign is correct (it should, however, be at the TOP of the on-slip not the bottom, several M4 signs are the same).

The motorway symbol should never appear on the mainline of a motorway, except at terminal junctions. It is to signify roads where motorway regulations apply on all-purpose roads --rdd (talk) 17:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Standardisation and style
I reduced these shields to 150px (again) as the 200px versions are a bit OTT to my beady eye. Maybe we should agree a standard size; if there is more than one shield in the box they overwhelm the box. Maybe one size for a single (or primary) shield and a smaller size for the others? There are numerous permutations but you get my drift.....Sarah777 (talk) 09:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Kilpeddar/Kilpedder
I notice that both spellings appear in the article and that Kilpeddar redirects to Kilpedder. Google maps and the OSI use "Kilpedder". Why am I not surprised that the NRA uses Kilpedder on its website, but puts up signs for Kilpeddar? I guess standardising on Kilpedder would be best. What say?  Nelson50 T  12:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I must have imagined the signs for Kilpeddar! Think I should take a Crissi Wiki Break!  Nelson50 T   18:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

N11 road or N11 national road
I have just reverted a move of this article from N11 road (Ireland) to N11 national road, pending further discussion.

The move was done by, whose contribution to articles on Irish roads has been enormous, so I'm sure vthat it was done in good faith for a good reason.

However, the convention so far has been for Irish N-roads to be located at "Nx road (Ireland)", where x is the road number, and the move made the N11 a lone exception to that convention.

It may be that this convention should be changed, and I have an open mind on that question. However, it's much easier for both editors and readers if a series of articles such as this is named consistently, so unless there is some special reason to make an exception of the N11, I would prefer that the Irish N-road articles retained that consistency. Let's either keep them all at "Nx road (Ireland)", or move them all to "Nx national road".

I have done a little research on this (without reaching any conclusion either way), and to centralise discussion I will post it at Talk:National primary road. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:55, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was no consensus to move. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 01:17, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

N11 road (Ireland) → N11 road — this is a procedural request following a note on my talk page from that she intends to perform this move unless she receives a "valid objection". Note that this follows a similar statement of intent regarding the N3 road (Ireland). -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:11, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose move. The N11 road (Ireland) is one of several roads bearing that name (see N11 (disambiguation)), including the ~500-mile long N11 road (South Africa), and six other national roads in Europe, some of which don't yet have articles.  I see no grounds for making the Irish N11 a primary topic: it's an important road in Ireland, but the other N11 roads are also important in their respective countries, and no useful purpose is served by arguing over whether one my-N11-is-more-important-than-yours.  Unless one such road is demonstrably more important than all similarly-named roads, readers are best served by using the primary topic for disambigaution -- which also allows editors to use navigation popups to quickly and easily disambiguate internal links.
 * Sarah's stated reasons include an assertion that this is a primary topic, and a complaint that this road was moved from N11 road to N11 road (Ireland) without consultation. However, many articles are moved from their original locations for disambiguation purposes, and it seems to me that this one was moved quite properly -- it's just the sort of move that I have often done myself. It was stable at N11 road (Ireland) for 14 months from July 2008 until your move on 21 September 2009, which I reverted on 26 September 2009.
 * Sarah moved this road on 21 September 2009 to N11 national road, which I reverted with a note above, and I then opened a centralised discussion on that at Talk:National primary road. Sarah didn't contribute to that discussion, and I look forward to seeing the evidence for her assertion that this is a primary topic. Hopefully she will also explain why she has changed her mind about moving this to N11 national road. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:06, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

If anyone gets the time to check other metrics before I do, feel free to add them to this table, but please note that you have done. Thryduulf (talk) 11:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak support for move or a redirect from that title (and very strong oppose for Sarah's proposed move without discussion). Just based on google.com.au hits (I've not looked at incomming links or page hits yet, I haven't time at the moment, and probably wont have until Tuesday at the earliest), I find the following results:
 * Thryduulf, please can you clarify what you were actually searching for, preferably by providing a link to the search you conducted? My experience is that very different results can be generated depending on whether the search is for the two words or for the phrase, or for plain old N11.
 * This is particularly important when so many of the roads in question are not in English-speaking countries, and the native language terms may use "rue" or "route" or "strada" or whatever. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:45, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The search term I used was N11 road -wikipedia -London . London is excluded as there are a lot of roads in the N11 postcode area of that city. If you are doing your own search, I would also recommend excluding the words "Corvette" and "muffler" as this should remove a high proportion of the irrelevant links I found (it seems that N11 is a type of muffler for Corvettes). I should have linked to this originally, sorry. Thryduulf (talk) 13:19, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose move - Keep current naming convention for this and all Irish Nx roads. Snappy (talk) 14:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose move as per Snappy above.  Nelson50 T   14:56, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * This is an odd one to call. There has been an increasing trend in recent years in France and Spain to devolve road operations to lower levels of government.  In France, a process similar to detrunking has been carried out, only this has resulted in roads being handed over to the départments becoming chemins départmentaux, often with new numbers.  Only those roads in areas without autoroutes (e.g. Brittany) tend to be preserved.  The South African example is longer, but seems to be an odd route, going from midway along a main route, by-passing the Gauteng conurbation without an obvious major destination on the way, though I don't profess any great socio-geographic knowledge of South Africa.  The traffic stats and internal link counts will probably be key here in addition to the Google hits.  81.110.104.91 (talk) 16:16, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The South African N11 appears to be a (the?) major route to Botswana.
 * The renumbering of French roads is an interesting point, but it won't stop lots of readers looking for the old numbers. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The N11 north of "just north of Pretoria" seems to be a route to Botswana. It's the bit in the middle between Newcastle and there which had me thinking it odd, hence not really wanting to call this one either way.  81.110.104.91 (talk) 15:32, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose - there are many roads with this name, and I'm not convinced that there's a primary topic here. N11 road should remain a disambiguation page. Robofish (talk) 17:02, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I think all road pages should have this title, regardless of "primacy": N# road (country). Seighean (talk) 20:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is, they don't. And it is abundantly clear that UK roads never will be. So enforcing a "policy" on non-British roads only  is a mockery of WP:NPOV. These stupid votes only emphasise over and over that simple fact. The sooner we unlock the the pages and start moving the clear cases of primacy (such as this one) the better. Sarah777 (talk) 09:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup, some British editors are digging their heels in to assert "primacy" wherever they can on British roads. But it doesn't help our readers to spread the problem more widely by replicating their folly, and muck up disambiguation of yet more articles. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:03, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 81.110.104.91 (talk) 15:30, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Stupid votes", is it? So why then is Sarah777 advocating the copying of British editing stupidity? Snappy (talk) 13:59, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Clarity: The "stupid votes" I refer to are votes such as this pointless exercise which has many of the usual editors gathering to defend British exceptionalism and make a joke of WP:NPOV. Regardless of the outcome of serial demonstrations of the British pov problem in Irish/British issues we will still need to decide: does primacy exist in this area or does it not. If "yes, primacy trumps dabbing" (and attempts by BHG and others to tackle it on British roads indicates "primacy is here to stay") then the cases where Irish roads are primary, such as this one, must be moved to the primary location. Sarah777 (talk) 12:14, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose - I disagree with the primacy stuff. GoodDay (talk) 15:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:POINT and the arguments already made. --John (talk) 15:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Very strong support; where roads such as this are clearly primary the articles must be moved to the primary location. Sarah777 (talk) 12:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Support as per Sarah's logical and reasonable comments. -- Domer48 'fenian'  19:13, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Which ones would those be? I haven't seen her present any evidence the road is "clearly primary".  Google hits alone don't say much, especially when the two leading options are of equal magnitude.  81.110.104.91 (talk) 15:54, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose It has been demonstrated that there is a need for disambiguation at N11 road. No good reason why any single country's N11 road should take precendence over any other country's road. Correct method therefore is to disambiguate all N11 roads by country. Mjroots (talk) 16:02, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Wrong. Type "N11 road" into google and the first 12 returns refer to the Irish road. Could someone please close this ludicrous "vote" so we can get on with restoring the N11 to it's primary position as per policy? And remove the fascistic page protection. Sarah777 (talk) 20:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sarah, based on the search I linked above using the neutral Australian-flavoured version of Google of the first 10 hits, 1 is irrelevant (not actually about a road), of the others 7 are about the Irish road, 2 are about the South African road. Using the same source on the South African-flavoured Google gives 5 results for South Africa and 5 for Ireland. Using the same search string on the Irish-flavoured version gives the same 7 Ireland, 2 South Africa, 1 irrelevant set of results as the Australian version (note I exclude Wikipedia from the results to remove any influence our existing naming schemes have on the results, and exclude London to remove hits for the N11 postcode area). Additionally, given that there are multiple oppose votes made by editors in good standing who have explained their reasoning, calling this discussion "ludicrous" and calling for the opinions of those who disagree with you to be ignored, is not good behaviour. Additionally calling the move protection "fascistic" when it was applied to enable a consensus to be formed is both misunderstanding fascism and extremely bad faith. I will try and get time to look at the traffic stats later, but until I do my weak support !vote above stands. Thryduulf (talk) 11:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Anglo bias proven beyond any reasonable doubt
Could someone unprotect the article and remove that tag? The ludicrous block of the move request should not be an excuse for perfobulation. Sarah777 (talk) 23:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Also note that En:Wiki does not even have an article on the Australian N11 and the French and SA ones are barely stubs. This is clearly as justified a primary usage as any road. Blocking this move is patently in breach of WP:NPOV. Sarah777 (talk) 23:12, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I fail to see any evidence for your claim of "Anglo bias", let alone any evidence that it has been "proven beyond any reasonable doubt". I would encourage you to remain civil and refrain from making statements that could be interpreted as personal attacks or racist remarks. There doesn't appear to be an Australian road called the N11, which would explain the lack of a Wikipedia article about it. There was no consensus in the discussion above to move this article, so it should remain at this title until there is a clear consensus to move it. I suspect that after only one month that a different outcome would be unlikely, but if you feel otherwise then the correct way to go about it is to initiate another requested move discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 00:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I have replaced the ugly big tag with the small lock symbol. I'm not yet certain the protection itself should be removed – Sarah777, I see no clear recognition in your posting above that you are going to respect the consensus that has emerged here. Are you? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see any consensus; what I see is yet another example of British bias being imposed on Irish articles. Thus, clearly I can't "respect" something that doesn't exist. Sarah777 (talk) 10:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Article out of date?
Looking at Openstreetmap it appears that the N11 north of Mount Merrion Avenue has been reclassified as the R138. Is that correct? Sarah777 (talk) 23:34, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if Openstreetmap is correct — it is unofficial and anyone can edit it and introduce errors, as in Wikipedia. Google Maps contains errors, too. The statutory description of the N11 is:

"Dublin — Wexford: Between its junction with N31 at Mount Merrion Avenue in the county of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown and its junction with N25 at Ballindinas in the county of Wexford via Stillorgan Road, Bray Road, Cabinteely Bypass, Loughlinstown, Shanganagh, SHANKILL BYPASS and OLD CONNAUGHT in the county of Dun Laoghaire — Rathdown: FASSAROE, Kilcroney, Wingfield, Kilmacanogue, Glen of the Downs, Drummin, Kilpedder, Mount Kennedy Demesne, Killadreenan, Timore, RATHMORE, BALLYHENRY, ROSSANA LOWER, BALLYNABARNEY, The Beehive, Ballard Lower, Ballinacor East, Jack Whites Cross and TEMPLERAINY in the county of Wicklow: MARSH in the town of Arklow: BALLYRAINE UPPER and KISH in the county of Wicklow: ASHWOOD LOWER, BALLYELLIN, TOBERDUFF, RAHEENAGURREN WEST, COOLNAVEAGH, FRANKFORT, Camolin, Ferns, Ballynahallin, Moyne Middle, Blackstoops and Blackstoops Road in the county of Wexford: Island Street, Enniscorthy Bridge and Shannon Quay (and via Seamus Rafter Bridge and Abbey Quay) in the town of Enniscorthy: Brownswood, Oilgate, Kyle Upper, Ferrycarrig Bridge and Newtown in the county of Wexford.

It is noteworthy that Google Maps shows the N11 reaching north into the city centre while the statute shows it only going as far north as Mount Merrion Avenue. Google Maps also depicts the N31 going south from Mount Merrion Avenue on the route of the N11, in contradiction to the statute (see junction).

The statutory description of the R138 is:

"O'Connell Bridge — Mount Merrion Avenue, County Dublin: Between its junction with R148 at Bachelors Walk in the city of Dublin and its junction with N31 at Mount Merrion Avenue in the county of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown via OConnell Bridge, DOlier Street, College Street (and via Westmoreland Street), College Green, Grafton Street (and via Suffolk Street, Church Lane and Dame Street), Nassau Street, Kildare Street, Saint Stephens Green North, (and via Saint Stephens Green North and Dawson Street) Merrion Row, Baggot Street Lower, Pembroke Street Lower, Fitzwilliam Square West, Pembroke Street Upper, (and via Leeson Street Lower and Saint Stephens Green East) Leeson Street Lower, Leeson Street Upper, Sussex Road (and via Leeson Street Upper), Morehampton Road, Donnybrook Road and Stillorgan Road in the city of Dublin: and Stillorgan Road in the county of Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown.

Bachelors Walk is described in the quoted text above as the R148 but it shows up on Google Maps as both the N1 and as the N4. Either the definitions overlap or Google is careless in its mapping. I have found an error in Google Maps in Mayo where I mapped the route of the R378 but if you look at the Google Map, the route is depicted in error as swinging south of the official route that I marked in blue. Make of all that what you will. When choosing between competing versions describing a route (Irish statute, Ordnance Survey maps, Google Maps, Openstreetmap) I favour the first two official sources. While officials do make mistakes, at least, by god, they are official mistakes! — O'Dea (talk) 23:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The N11 was (is?) still signposted as continuing past the N31/Mount Merrion Avenue junction to the City centre. Only became aware of the "R138" from OSM. No signpost refers to the R138 so far as I know. Must be a very recent change? Sarah777 (talk) 21:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The most recent Statutory Instrument revising the Roads Act 1993 was enacted on 28 February 2012 so the R138 has certainly existed since then. It looks unlikely that it was defined before that. — O'Dea  (talk) 10:12, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Article updated to 29/3/2014
And we got an award! This is a selected article  on the. I have added this honour to the assessment box section above :) Sarah777 (talk) 13:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

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