Talk:NFI Group

Models
While the article's tone appears quite professional compared to what I found in Millennium Transit Services, the models listing looked like a jigsaw of dashes and parentheses. I did some cleaning up in Historical and Current subsections, just to make dash use in there consistent and user-friendly in terms of legibility.

Most of this is a good part from my own point of view and a good part from the Dash article.


 * I didn't touch on bus models, as they use the hyphen-minus anyway;
 * Years in the form of "from xxxx to xxxx" and "xxxx to present" look like this: 1968&#8211;1974 and "1996&#8211;present";
 * Years in the form of "from late 1980s to mid 1990s" are given an unspaced em dash: "late 1980s&#8212;mid 1990s", since the from and to statements are not mere numbers, but contain two (or more) word constructs (I don't mind if someone disputes this statement in favour of an en dash);
 * Parenthetical statements, such as "F40LF — Fuel Cell (Hydrogen) Test Buses (1996)" are separated with a spaced em dash. While indeed in American English usage, spaced em dashes are not used, I still feel it is warranted in here, so as to separate bus model numbers from the rest of the text and not make it appear as part of the model number itself;
 * For consistency in sections with the above point, parenthetical statements are also separated with a spaced em dash.

Despite my own cleanups, there is still an overabundance of parentheses. -Mardus 01:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

This has been eliminated, with all models now in a table, as the Motor Coach Industries article has it, with both US and metric units given.--AEMoreira042281 (talk) 15:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed client list
I've removed the client list from the article on the basis that it doesn't add anything to the article. It can be easily summed up as "Yeah, they've had a lot of customers." My thought is that if the client is notable in relation to the topic then fine (like the 870 frame fiasco for Flxible). Otherwise, it's not particularly notable and makes the article unnecessarily long. SchuminWeb (Talk) 10:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Invero
Who ever said that OC Transpo owns the DE40i is wrong, I should know, I live in Ottawa. So I fixed it. 99.245.254.34 (talk) 01:58, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120531143929/http://www.dieselprogress.com/Industry-News/3852/New-Flyer-In-Bus-Joint-Venture/ to http://www.dieselprogress.com/Industry-News/3852/New-Flyer-In-Bus-Joint-Venture/

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The NFI GE40LFA
although most people would rub it off, I thought I should point out that Long Beach Transit is the only operator of the GE40LFA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EditorTheInvertedFan (talk • contribs) 05:58, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Proposed split
I propose that this article be split into two pages. One page (New Flyer Industries Group) would focus on the broader company that owns both New Flyer and MCI. The other page (New Flyer Industries) would focus solely on the heavy-duty transit bus brand. They're getting too mixed together on this page. Thoughts? --RickyCourtney (talk) 05:40, 9 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Ricky, I am from New Flyer Industries and made the edits yesterday. New Flyer Industries Inc. is the company that owns New Flyer, MCI, and the Aftermarket Parts group. The New Flyer Industries edits I made yesterday are factual, verified, and correct (see most recent investor relations - press releases). I will leave the history section alone, but the introduction to New Flyer Industries should be consistent with what is issued externally (in media, to investors, the public, etc.). I attempted to update the intro section for NF Industries this morning, and the edits was blocked/undid by Cluebots, despite the information being factually correct. Lcnorris (talk) 15:30, 9 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Your edit is a bit too promotional (“the … leader”, “broadest range”, “most comprehensive”, etc.), and the third paqragraph is pure PR puff. If you were to tone things down a bit it would be perfectly acceptable. However, what’s good for investor and the press is not necessarily proper for an encyclopedia. Useddenim (talk) 15:37, 9 August 2017 (UTC)


 * It sounds like you might be bordering on conflict of interest (COI) editing, which is strongly discouraged on Wikipedia. I urge you to read Wikipedia's plain and simple conflict of interest guide before you make any more edits to this page. --RickyCourtney (talk) 18:00, 9 August 2017 (UTC)


 * I am new to Wikipedia and should my edits be considered a COI, I will refrain from making further changes. I do encourage you to pull facts from the NF site in your ongoing editing of the page. Lcnorris (talk) 18:21, 9 August 2017‎ (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified (February 2018)
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Logo & Header
All, couple things:

1) New Flyer Industries Inc. (the parent company of New Flyer transit buses, MCI motor coaches, ARBOC low-floor cutaway buses, and NFI Parts - visually shown here: https://www.nfigroup.com/) had its name formally changed in May 2018 to NFI Group Inc. - can we please rename the page to NFI Group Inc. to reflect that?

2) Logo: the logo shown is incorrect. NFI Group has its own logo, and further, the New Flyer transit bus logo has since been updated and the one shown is no longer used. I can provide the logo - can someone update if I do?

3) Website: FYI only - the NFI Group Inc. site (https://www.nfigroup.com/) will be further built out and launched shortly. It will contain all corporate history, all subsidiary information, investor relations content, aggregate news/press releases (from New Flyer, MCI, ARBOC, and NFI Parts), and aggregate career postings. Much of this will move over from newflyer.com (given New Flyer represents the transit bus brand only). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lcnorris (talk • contribs) 13:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Please provide the logo, thank you! SportsFan007 (talk) 13:20, 16 October 2018 (UTC)SportsFan007

Below are a couple I referenced. Note the New Flyer logo is used for New Flyer Canada ULC, and the New Flyer of America logo is used for New Flyer of America Inc. For any general references to the New Flyer transit bus business, please use only the New Flyer logo and not the New Flyer of America logo.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NF_Profile_Full.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:New_Flyer_of_America.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NFI_Group_Inc.png

Updates look awesome - thanks!

cleanup/fixup: suggestions
For starters. Weeb Dingle (talk) 20:44, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) the market share has shifted since the cited (and entirely unsupported) 2016 numbers. NFI is now a near-monopoly, with minuscule competition from Gillig Corporation and Canada's Orion International and Nova Bus.
 * 2) hype content: parroting of decade-old "top employer" accolades without noting this applies to office work (corporate, sales, engineering) not anything mechanical (i.e. most NFI jobs), and only to Canada rather than the United States (i.e. most NFI jobs). Is it still "top" or is this stuff now fancruft?
 * 3) without any clear ties to the article proper, the Bus models section is only a gratuitous list, and ought to be deleted. Anyone who loves it can bury it in List of buses.
 * 4) there could be a See also section for such articles as New Flyer Low Floor, New Flyer Xcelsior, New Flyer Invero, and Alexander Dennis Enviro200 (the NFI "MiDi" model, fwiw).
 * 5) as repeatedly brought up (and derailed) previously on this Talk page, there really needs to be much effort put into differentiating NFI Group (the multi-company owner or holding corporation or investor group or WTF it calls itself) from the actual transit-bus-building part, colloquially New Flyer of America (NFA). For example, NFI's bus-parts business functions independently from the assembly lines. Without that demarcation, the article freely swings from talking corporatese to talking bus-making (the core revenue stream and the primary brand image).
 * 6) it strikes me as strange that there's no examples of the New Flyer "wing" logo seen daily by millions of commuters and pedestrians.
 * 7) is New Flyer at any point differentiated from cartage company NFI Industries?
 * 8) New Flyer's Toronto Exchange ticker symbol is NFI.UN
 * 9) that Market Beat article is in multiple ways superior to NFI Group Inc. and ought to provide a model for revision.
 * 10) throughout the present article are perhaps a hundred examples of semiliteracy, not least being questionable understanding of basic English punctuation.
 * 11) New Flyer doesn't have a history so much as an evolution. Been awhile since I read the official company bio, but a couple dozen (at least) small regional manufacturers were accreted in the '50s and '60s (some themselves agglomerations), whether near-bankruptcy acquisition or strategic partnership. The present article is heavily slanted toward making the subsequent waves of ownership sound like geniuses for simply recognizing profit potential.
 * 12) a potentially interesting side-trip for an encyclopedic article would be the effects of unionization and the 1982 Buy America Act (which specifically "deals with purchases related to rail or road transportation") — it's common knowledge in western Minnesota, but I can't find formal sources so realize it'd presently qualify as synthesis. The Crookston plant started out 35 miles away, in Grand Forks in the late 1980s. But as North Dakota is a "right-to-work" (anti-union, that is) state, some major bus buyers such as New York City and Los Angeles avoided New Flyer, and BAA blocked NFI from simply selling them Winnipeg-made buses, so the operation was entirely moved to Minnesota. (Ironically enough, NFI's Jamestown NY component production plant isn't unionized.) The Anniston plant took advantage of a preexisting campus, but a major draw was Alabama's RTW; coupled with massive unemployment in the region, wages can be kept minimal and few workers are at all vital (98% of jobs considered semi- or unskilled labor). The Crookston and Saint Cloud plants are represented by the Communication Workers of America because no other union would take on such a small workforce (officially 325 and 750 respectively), specifically Local 7304. Despite recurrent anti-union rumblings from NFI, loss of the Minnesota union would significantly undercut sales.
 * I've blanked the entire Bus models section. Anyone who misses it should comment here. Weeb Dingle (talk) 16:26, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 28 March 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) --  Dane talk  22:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

NFI Group Inc. → NFI Group – per WP:NCCORP policy. Tagsfornia (talk) 09:20, 28 March 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. KCVelaga (talk) 01:22, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Support this move 2601:541:4500:1760:D824:4A17:1A28:2C0F (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:05, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Won't fight it — seems (to me) like pointless nit-picking. Now I'm curious about the circumstances. Weeb Dingle (talk) 20:26, 31 March 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

NFI Group - Corporate Reference Updates
Hi all,

Full transparency: I work for New Flyer.

Wanted to give a heads up on a few factual changes to NFI Group references on the page: in short, NFI Group Inc ("NFI") is now the parent company of multiple entities, including New Flyer, MCI, ARBOC, NFI Parts, and Alexander Dennis (the latter of which was acquired in May - details @ https://www.nfigroup.com/2019/05/28/nfi-group-inc-announces-acquisition-of-alexander-dennis-limited/). With the acquisition, NFI grew overnight from 6,000 people to just under 9,000 people, and from operating in 2 countries to operating in 10 (Canada, US, UK, Germany, Ireland, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Mexico, New Zealand).

The page currently references New Flyer ownership but does not mention/make clear the ownership of other subsidiaries. Can you please integrate updates into the page so it's current? Below is the statement normally found in our press release "boilerplates" (obviously do not expect this verbiage to carry over, as it's likely too corporate for the Wiki page):

About NFI

With over 8,900 team members operating from more than 50 facilities across ten countries, NFI is a leading independent global bus manufacturer providing a comprehensive suite of mass transportation solutions under brands: New Flyer® (heavy-duty transit buses), Alexander Dennis Limited (single and double-deck buses), Plaxton (motor coaches), MCI® (motor coaches), ARBOC® (low-floor cutaway and medium-duty buses), and NFI Parts™. NFI buses and motor coaches incorporate the widest range of drive systems available including: clean diesel, natural gas, diesel-electric hybrid, and zero-emission electric (trolley, battery, and fuel cell). It also supports infrastructure development through New Flyer Infrastructure Solutions™, a service dedicated to providing safe and reliable charging and mobility solutions. In total, NFI now supports over 105,000 buses and coaches currently in service around the world. For the fiscal year ended December 30, 2018, NFI posted revenues of US$2.5 billion. NFI common shares are traded on the Toronto Stock Exchange under the symbol NFI. News and information are available at www.nfigroup.com, www.newflyer.com, www.mcicoach.com, www.arbocsv.com, www.alexander-dennis.com, and www.nfi.parts.

Thanks, L — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lcnorris (talk • contribs) 19:40, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Split into New Flyer Industries
This article is too much of a hassle. So I propose to split this article into New Flyer Industries for buses and models and the NFI Group will remain as a corporate entity itself. --69.157.127.100 (talk) 21:26, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I think what might solve that (though I don't think this article does represent much of a hassle) is a separate item about the products. Remove them from this article there is not much left. For example see Wolseley Motors and List of Wolseley automobiles. Maybe current product(s) sat stay in this article. Just a thought. Eddaido (talk) 22:15, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Strongly support the split, but provided that we move the bus models into a separate article/sub-page. Perhaps that's what suggested above? Doug Mehus (talk) 00:25, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I meant, a separate list article about all those bus models. Have a look at the examples I suggest. Eddaido (talk) 01:02, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , Ah, yeah, that makes sense. Proposed post-split article title should be List of New Flyer bus models, unless it includes those models of its subsidiaries (i.e., ARBOC and Alexander Dennis), then I'd go with List of NFI Group bus models. Doug Mehus (talk) 01:32, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Disagree overall. Agreed, the fanboy data ought to be removed, but if anywhere it should be stuffed into the extant List of buses, where the infinitesimally few users who feel the need can easily use their browsers' Search function. Some mention could be made here as to their current production models, but W'pedia is not a repository for extended wankery that, if anyone actually cared about such ephemera, would already exist elsewhere. Weeb Dingle (talk) 02:28, 9 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Support Just to add my two cents on this... I also think that we should keep this page for the NFI Group (the corporate entity) and split off New Flyer (drop the industries) as the brand that makes the Xcelsior. I think it's important to note that the NFI Group now has five subsidiary bus builders (Alexander Dennis, ARBOC Specialty Vehicles, Motor Coach Industries, New Flyer, and Plaxton) and most have their own Wikipedia page. --RickyCourtney (talk) 15:26, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Support Judging by the questionably passionate topic posted below this ("major demolition" of an article? Seriously?), I am of the opinion that New Flyer can have its own article separate from its parent company. This allows for a better explanation of company history (for both entities); a New Flyer article can house product information for both past and present products of the company.  This article needs to describe all five brands of the company (which it does not); as a parent article, it does not need to go into length, but it only remains a New Flyer article at this point.  The split will allow both articles to better function.  --SteveCof00 (talk) 11:57, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Support This article is a mess. The topic is the parent company, but half the content is written as if the article is solely about the New Flyer subsidiary. A split would fix this. Saucy[talk – contribs] 08:40, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Strongly Support This article is confusing and messy, a split would fix this. I am currently working on an article for ARBOC which would compliment these new articles TheTransitFanNY[TheTransitFanNY – contribs] 14:50, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

notice: changes to come
The page has four issues at the top, dating 2007-2017, therefore is long overdue for major demolition.

Start with the basics: sourcing. Of the 66 sources cited, 52 of them are New Flyer itself. That alone is a big yellow flag that recommends close scrutiny. (HINT: if you really feel the need to cite a company's press release — let alone almost half a gross!! — as if it were inarguable fact, then have at least the minimal decency to find a credible media outlet that felt it was worth regurgitating.)

The truly ludicrous list of obsolete products clearly needs to be gone. I used to collect U.S. postage stamps and early Walkman devices, and remain a fan of both, but I would happily delete voluminous lists from the respective articles, and strongly push to keep such data reams off Wikipedia even as List pages.

Let me state again: the NFI Group does not make buses (any more than IBM is "a computer manufacturer"). That is the work of a corporate division, therefore really doesn't belong here at all.

There are exactly three humans named: Coval, den Ousden, Marinucci. Who are presently the key people at the top? Why is this not worth mention? Where, at least, is Soubry?

There probably ought to be a Controversies section. In 2013, New Flyer got a huge contract with Los Angeles, in large part by making all sorts of promises. Per an August 2019 recounting:
 * The multiplier impact to the Los Angeles community was huge in the original agreement, as reported in the New York Times, worth some $18 million, creating a significant advantage for New Flyer’s bid.

But NFI weaseled away from the commitments:
 * …the company had underpaid the workers employed under the manufacturing contract by as much as a buck an hour. Additionally, records reviewed by the Times … found that the benefits package was half of what was promised.

A 10/24/17 Los Angeles Times op/ed says
 * ''The problem arose when Jobs to Move America, the public interest group that created the U.S. Employment Plan, wanted to assess whether New Flyer had actually kept its word. New Flyer gave generalized information, but sought to heavily redact all specifics such as hourly wages, job location and descriptions, and benefit packages, citing “trade secrets and proprietary information.”..
 * When Metro said they would release the full information anyway, New Flyer sued in May to block the release. Such lawsuits are known as “reverse Public Records Act” requests; the whole idea is to keep the public in the dark.

Two years after, a Huffington Post article explores how NFI is being confronted with similar shenanigans at their Alabama plant. (Incidentally, JMA is a coalition that includes the Communications Workers of America, which represents labor at the Saint Cloud and Crookston plants.) Weeb Dingle (talk) 04:46, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * After some struggle, I managed to hide the entire Discontinued models section — I don't believe this belongs at all on W'pedia, but anyone who wants to save it is welcome to cram the data into List of buses.
 * It was pointed out to me that much of the Facilities section is open to question. Primarily, credible sources MUST be provided that at least imply the list is up-to-date and complete.
 * As well, up to about four years ago, subassembly fabrication was at the Crookston plant, and encountered difficulties when relocated to low-wage (and low-skill) Jamestown, incidentally eliminating two dozen Crookston job positions. Because of persistent snags, the wheelchair ramp section was reinstated at Crookston, where it's remained for three years despite NFI repeatedly saying "just a few more months." I mention this specifically because it calls to question the section's inherent premise that there is any real separation between bus manufacturing (from which the parts builders are drawn, and often swapped at a moment's notice), and parts distribution (who treat New Flyer as just another customer), and component fabrication (who supply parts to New Flyer both directly, and indirectly via the distro centers).
 * Note to self: throughout mention is made of "New Flyer" despite the headline. Clarification MUST be made as to whether each reference is to NFI Group or to the New Flyer bus-building subgroup. Weeb Dingle (talk) 19:17, 21 December 2019 (UTC)