Talk:NGR Class K 2-6-0T

SAR-L Yahoogroup message 46017 of 7 October 2013, from Bruno Martin
From: Bruno Martin To: sar-l@yahoogroups.com Sent: 07 October 2013 06:31 AM Subject: [sar-L] Re: NGR 2-6-0T of 1877 [2 Attachments]

[Attachment(s) from Bruno Martin included below]

Hi André

Further evidence that (some) of the NGR’s BP locomotives were wood burners:

Noted in The Natal Mercury of 1877:

1-3-77: Firewood for the locomotives. Tenders are called for the supply of firewood for the locomotives on the NGR, in the first instance a term of 6 months, the second term of 12 months, from the 15th August.

12-7-77: Tenders for firewood to close on Saturday, 21st. 10 tons of blue gum and 10 tons of thornwood per month.

ARRIVAL OF THE FIRST LOCOMOTIVES:

31-10-77 Tenders called for the landing of 2 locomotives, 30 open wagons, 10 passenger carriages.

15-12-77: New railway communication with port. Yesterday (14th) two of the new engines were landed from the Empress of India.

THE FIRST NGR LOCO SEEN IN SERVICE:

The Natal Mercury reported in 1878:

11-1-78: NEW LOCOMOTIVE: The Government line has now one of their own engines at work on the contractors’ line between Durban and the Point. It made its trial trip yesterday, bringing up a lot of loaded trucks from the Point. We observe the Government numbers their locomotives instead of naming them, the one at work now is No.3. It is fitted with the patent American cow lifter.

I have a scan of NGR BP loco No.4 after modification to compliment the copy you have of the same loco with its balloon stack (source: National Archives, Pietermaritzburg, caption on photo “NGR mixed train, circa 1884”). I have attached it to this email – not sure whether it will show up when posted on SAR-L – if not, please supply me with your email address.

Regards

Bruno Martin

Posted here as reference. André Kritzinger (talk) 19:02, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Early NGR background information
A further email from Bruno Martin, posted for reference:

From: Bruno Martin To: Andre H Kritzinger Sent: 08 October 2013 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [sar-L] Re: NGR Loco numbering

Hi André

Yes, I’m in Oz (since 1987) – and I compliment you for undertaking this monumental task of compiling such a detailed an accurate reference of motive power of South Africa’s railways. It’s a never-ending task, because someone always comes up with more information on the subject as I’ve also experienced in attempting to put together a railway atlas of South Africa (which is still in the making after more than 10 years!).

Regarding NGR locomotive numbering: I wish I had paid more attention and made more notes when I was a regular visitor to the Archives in Maritzburg back in the 1970s and early 80s. At time I was primarily after information to do with the construction of the Natal Main Line for the “Natal Main Line Story”. I recall there were at least 10 box files crammed with memos and other documents relating to the NGR – a treasure trove of information. I’ve recently received a link to the archives, but I haven’t tried it out for anything specific and it’s not the same as being there in person:

PMB Repository. Go to [www.national.archives.gov.za|www.national.archives.gov.za]

Click on: Search National Automated Archival Info Retrieval System

Click on: Search

Click on: NAB – PMB Archives Repository ........away you go.

The only references I have as regarding the early numbering of NGR locos is contained in the two attached scans from the NGR Annual Reports, Jan 1905 and 31 Dec. 1908 (which John Middleton may have also passed on to you as well). I have also got scans from pages of the Natal Blue Book which I passed on to John, but no numbering there, only references to the first batch of Kitson locomotives delivered as 2-6-0 and having a pony truck added later to become 4-6-0.

Having looked at the NGR Class K 2-6-0T, a few points I picked up:

1.The NGR was constituted under Law 4 of 1875, so therefore the year the NGR was established should read 1875 (not 1877).

2.There seems to be some conflicting information when William Milne arrived in Natal: The Natal Mercury gives the arrival as 14 March, 1876, aboard the RMS “NATAL”. Campbell, E D, The Birth and Development of the Natal Railways, notes William Milne as having arrived in October, 1877, on board the “ASIATIC” to take up the position of Locomotive Foreman. It would seem to me that Milne would have been in Natal by 1876 to place the order with BP for the 7 locomotives (not 1877). The Natal Blue Book also records that William Milne’s appointment as Locomotive Superintendent took effect as from 1 June 1877.

3.The caption under the image of the Inchanga viaduct should read “circa 1886” – the reason being that the “raking struts” seen on the image to give the structure greater stability were added between June 1885 and July 1886.

4. The assets of the Natal Railway Company were taken over by the Colonial Government to become part of the NGR as from 1 January 1877.

Regards

Bruno

Posted here for future reference. André Kritzinger (talk) 20:47, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

NGR locomotive classification
Correspondence with John Middleton and Leith Paxton on 4 October 2013:

From: John Nicholas Middleton To: The Paxtons Cc: 'Aidan McCarthy' ; 'Andre H Kritzinger' Sent: 04 October 2013 04:57 PM Subject: RE: Natal Harbour Board and NGR tanks

Leith

Agreed, oom Frank did a grand job where there was nothing previously and his work still remains fairly definitive. The mistakes I can live with, he was working with what he had. What gets me more annoyed is where he tried to "force-fit" the pieces he didn't understand such as lumping every small engine together as "Harbour Board" which has caused so much confusion over the years.

What gets me even more annoyed are present day writers who think "its all been done" and put stuff into print that perpetuates incorrect information without question - even when there are several of us who are working on trying to unravel the mysteries.

By the way, we continue to refer to the NGR 4-6-0T as the "K and S" class as Ron Conyngham did in his booklet. Perhaps this is because the SAR Renumbering Booklet and Espitalier & Day both referred to them as the Kitson & Stephenson Class. However, the 1908 NGR engine lists I have clearly show them as the NGR "G" Class - I have not seen this referred to elsewhere. The NGR Classes are shown as follows (do you know when this system started but since the Hendrie locos of 1904 are A and B it must have been post-1904, my 1904 NGR list doesn't show these classes);

A Class : Hendrie "A" 325-326 B Class : Hendrie "B" 275-324 C Class : Reid 4-10-2T D1 Class : Dubs "A" D2 Class : Dubs "A" with belpaire boiler E Class : Improved Dubs "B" F Class : Reid 4-6-4T G Class : Kitson / Stephenson 4-6-0T H Class : The two G class rebuilds 21 and 25 I Class : The Zululand locos (both types) J Class : Not listed K Class       : Seems to be miscellaneous small locos as it included three BP 2-6-0T, No. 15 the Hunslet 0-6-0ST and the surviving Neilson 0-4-0ST L Class : Ex CSAR 7th 327-329 M Class : Not Listed N Class : Narrow Gauge 1-2

Regards

John


 * From:       "The Paxtons"
 * To:       "'Andre H Kritzinger'", "'Aidan McCarthy'", "'John Nicholas Middleton'"
 * Date:       10/04/2013 04:38 AM
 * Subject:       RE: Natal Harbour Board and NGR tanks


 * Hello André,


 * You touch on a sore point, i.e. Holland not mentioning the 2-6-0T K & S. The fact is when he was writing his book, he was not aware of them. Even when I came to CT in 1979 and discovered that now classic photo of No.9 in the Archives (J1814) and sent him a copy, he dismissed it without very little comment, which annoyed me. He had very strong views on many things. He was NOT a Watson a fan, as Watson introduced the reboilering programme. Holland said it ruined the Hendrie engines. He also totally ignored the Class 8R in his book as he said it was a bad design – also a Watson idea.


 * Regards,
 * Leith

Posted here for reference purposes. André Kritzinger (talk) 12:54, 21 October 2013 (UTC)