Talk:NKVD/Archive 1

Stub?
This article is a .. .stub?

Any objection to an article rename to the full name? To be more consistent with other Russian articles. -Joseph 04:25, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)


 * But redirect from NKVD, or no one will ever find it. -- orthogonal 04:31, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Of course. -Joseph 04:32, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)

This is an English-language encyclopedia. There is no such expression "Narodnyi Komissariat Vnutrennikh Del" in English, but "NKVD" is in use. I am reverting other moves, too. Please wait more than 7 minutes when asking about objections. Mikkalai 02:25, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Forgot something???
I can't see any mentions of mass clandestine murders carried out by NKVD. Or this is just a Western propaganda??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Have no time for investigating of who exactly among Wikipedians "missed" these issues, or deleted them. But my suspicion is that it was some Russian propagandist aiming to rehabilitate Stalinism (a semiofficial ideology of acting Moscow regime). Let me remind everybody a well-known aphorism: "The one who forgets history is doomed to suffer that history again". AlexPU 15:15, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Don't be histerical and paranoidal, especially if you "have no time". There is no "long red arm of Moscow" around in Wikipedia. There is plenty of info in wikipedia about what you want. Take a chance to start from Stalinism you mentioned, Joseph Stalin, Great Purge, Gulag, to name just a few. Shall we enter in the article rifle the phrase "rifles killed millions of innocent people"? If you feel necessary to add something here, then what's exactly your suggestion? Mikkalai 17:31, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Dear Mikalai,
 * Even if I'm a paranoic, it doesn't mean that nobody is following me :) And you may be little underinformed about "arms of Moscow" in Wiki or anywhere else. To the best of my knowledge, most Westerners are tremendously underinformed about both foreign and interior policy of Russia. Ordinary Russian web users, keen to promote their anti-Western state among Westerners, may be that "long arm";
 * Just show me the links to Stalinism and other articles you mentioned ON THIS VERY NKVD PAGE. That's what I mean saying somebody forgot something. I didn't mean that Wiki as a whole lacks info on purges. But this particular page is IMMORALLY INCOMPLETE.
 * If we studied the weapons usage statistics and found out that 90% of those killed by the rifles were innocent. If we found out that the most natural pre-designed usage of rifle is killing innocent victim, not armed enemy. Than YES, we should enter that phrase in the rifle article.AlexPU 11:43, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * People, PLEASE DON'T YOU DARE to delete human rights section explaining "it doesn't belong here". In the names of those millions of victims, you know. Otherwise I'll start the edit war until the last drop of my blood. We can seek consensus on statements and numbers, but the very issue DOES BELONG HERE, and every each security agency page. People read of the agency - they should know ts legal record. To demonstrate my neutrality, I encourage everybody to write the respective section for CIA. Personally, I've already done so to my native SBU. May be a special Wikiproject? Best wishes, AlexPU

P.S. Dear Wikifellows, if you're not sure about what was somthng renamed into, don't state the false - just write "renamed".


 * You cannot simply state that your new sections will not be subjected to thorough vetting. It appears you feel strongly and are very emotional about this subject, which is all the more reason to backcheck this stuff. -Joseph (Talk) 22:46, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)

Mikkalai edits to NKVD
Dear Mikkalai, let's "talk" as you suggested. 1. IMHO, it's more ethical to talk first when you deleting smthng, not when somebody asking you why. I'do this every time I remove other people's thesises. Or may be you haven't formulated you opinion yet, just wanted to delete? 2. What the hell is wrong with mass deportations of Tatars and others? I think it's much more proven and known than mass executions. Please substantiate your edit to this as soon as you can.

Please don't make me suspect you of POV-motivated vandalism. Hoping to resolve the contradiction, AlexPU Attention WP Tatars, Lithuanians! Please be involved with your references and links!AlexPU

Violations of the law
IMO the phrase "NKVD violated the laws" is very out of place here. There was no normal (in modern, democratic, sense) legal system in the Soviet Union at NKVD times; there was no clear division of legislative and executive power. "NKVD Order #NNNN" was a law.Something must be said here in this respect, but not is such a simplistic way. Mikkalai 03:00, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Formally, it did violated the formal written Constitution. This strikes through any other discussions on the philosophy of Soviet legal system (at least, on this very page). Mikkalai, you either don't understand the simple things, or trying to push something unacceptable.
 * It is probably you who don't understand simple things, like, e.g., the "chain of command". The simplest chain:


 * constitution->law->policy->actions.

In the USSR the chain was already broken at the very first link: between constitution and law. To say that NKVD violated the "formal written Constitution" is just as meaningless as to say that volves "violate the Ten Commandments". You probably have no slightest idea what king of legal system was in Soviets. First and foremost rule was "Revolutionary Justice". If the current law was in conflict with "RJ" it could be safely discarded. What is more, if a functionary did not do that, he will quickly land into gulag himself. You cannot isolate the blame of NKVD from the blame of the whole system. You can only point to the share of NKVD within this whole burden of blame of Communist society. This must be written somewhere in the article: NKVD, even at the moments of excesses was true executor of the will of the Party, not simply a rogue mafia which went amok on the killing spree. It was state policy, state law.

As for constitution, I suggest you to read it. It clearly states that there are basically two kinds of people: workers and "exploiters". And the goal is to get rid of the latter ones whatever means will it take. If in the way some "good" workers suffered, well, it was a mistake. Sorry, shit happens. The perpetrators (which turned out to be "german spies") are already executed, don't worry. That how the life looked like.


 * I guess you should work hard in order to not look too propaganda suspicious for me Best wishes, AlexPU
 * Huh??? But wishes accepted, thanks. Mikkalai 23:44, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the criminal nature of NKVD's domestic activities...
Why not? Really doesn't sound like NPOV to me Fornadan 01:01, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I meant it would be blasphemous to regard NKVD's activities in these fields as achievements. Instead, they were the blasphemous covering of the true goal of the agency - which has was to keep the population in horror. Do you read my freaky English so far? Otherwise, we should seriously believe that NKVD did revealed millions of true English spies, masons and terrorists - which is (as you understand) physically impossible and also blasphemous. So you can reshuffle that thought of mine with better style, but keeping in mind that it's essence is really undoubtful and shared by billions worldwide. Best wishes, AlexPU
 * You are right, but you are arguing with yourself here; wasn't it your own title? It is not like some NKVD lover ised this word, and you are trying to NPOV it. So I removed the word "achievements" altogether. By the way, while I agree with you, many other might not. Recently I was struggling against the case when a "new russian"  who got rich quick by stealing from the collapsed USSR was called a "successful businessman". the basic argument was that "success" is a neutral word: even a burglary may be called "successful". So in a sense, yes, from a very neutral point of view NKVD was successful and had real high achievements in keeping the population in terror. Mikkalai 23:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Was the repression reserved for counter-revolutionaries, or applied to all.

VeCheKa/GPU/OGPU/GUGB/NKGB/MGB
I believe there are too many articles about the same checkist agency. I think we should combine all of them into a chronological article describing the secret police activites of the chekist forces and then provide a link to KGB as the final and somewhat stable reincarnaiton of the Cheka that tried hard to stand out of Stalin purges. I suggest the article should be named History of Soviet State Security forces. If and when the sections grow large enough, they will be split again. As of now, it's just a mess. DmitryKo 09:53, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * They were not the same agency. If the articles leave this impression, then it means that they are poorly written. Combining them into one will make things even worse. Each agence had well-defined time frame and scope of work. It is not like Mongol Empire topic. Mikkalai 20:27, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with Mikkalai. Each agency should have its own article. -- Necrothesp 21:24, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's not a misninformed impression, it's lack of diversity. I insist that Cheka, GPU/OGPU, GUGB, NKGB and early MGB are essentially the same body going under different names, because they performed just the same tasks and they were consequently transformed from one reincarnation to another so there were no single other similiar agency at any time. The NKVD->NKGB->NKVD->NKGB trick of 1941-1943 gives a clear example of their similarity. There's just nothing notable or exclusive to write about any particular reincarnation. On the other hand, KGB has evolved big enough to differentiate a shift in its responsibilities and policies. If you follow Russian sources, the state security officers always referred to themselves as chekist or GeBeist in an obviously hinted pride of their alleged past, and the KGB was continuously referring to itself as Cheka/GPU/NKVD/KGB bodies. Left where they are, the articles would never grow into full-blown articles unless they will redescribe the same activities and personalities, again. DmitryKo 13:12, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Not quite (@least as far as the articles explain), the NKVD had alot of other stuff going on, the NKGB was ONE of those directorates spun off and hence whould cover a much narrower function. 68.39.174.39 22:52, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The NKVD is a strong synonym for the GULAG and the Cheka/OGPU/GUGB, which were instruments of Stalin's purges; that's why the article is mostly describing activities of these two parts of the NKVD. There are separate articles on other activities of both Imperial and Russian MVD such as Okhranka, Militsiya, firefighters etc.


 * My proposal is that NKVD, SMERSH, MVD should of course stay, but some of their historical sections, the Chronology and Cheka/OGPU/GUGB/NKGB/MGB articles should be combined into a bigger history article to make it enciclopaedic and not just a bunch of dictiinary definitions (NKGB is what GUGB (which is a evolution of Cheka/OGPU) was called for two months until it was merged back and then it was NKGB again for 3 years but then it was renamed MGB and it evolved to KGB in the end. THIS IS A STUB) that are never going to be expanded because Cheka/OGPU/GUGB/NKGB/MGB is the same agency.


 * If you know Russian, here's a historical article dealing with Imperial MVD, NKVD and MVD of the USSR: &#1054;&#1083;&#1100;&#1075;&#1072; &#1069;&#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1100;&#1084;&#1072;&#1085; : &#1054;&#1090;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1074;&#1083;&#1077;&#1085;&#1080;&#1077; &#1074;&#1085;&#1091;&#1090;&#1088;&#1077;&#1085;&#1085;&#1080;&#1093; &#1076;&#1077;&#1083; DmitryKo 19:11, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Proposal (reworded)
I think we should combine the following articles/sections a large chronological article describing the secret police activites of the chekist forces: and then provide a link to KGB as the final and somewhat stable reincarnaiton of the Cheka. It should be named State Security in the Soviet Union. DmitryKo 19:11, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Chronology of Soviet secret police agencies
 * Cheka
 * State Political Directorate
 * Main Directorate of State Security
 * NKVD (section: Evolution of NKVD structure and tasks)
 * Smersh (section: History)
 * People's Commissariat for State Security
 * Ministry for State Security

The NKVD and the Soviet economy
The NKVD destroied also the Soviet economy killing, imprisoning and deporting working people. Your text says that the impact of the NKVD was good. Try to write the same about the SS. Xx236 11:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * NKVD had good and bad impacts. In fact NKVD is the another name for Ministry of Internal Affairs. It dealt with criminals, enemies of the Soviet Union and participated in Stalin's repressions. Also NKVD dealt with German prisoners of war and developed nuclear weaponery. What facts do you disagree? My text doesent say the impact of NKVD was good - some good people were imprisoned in NKVD colonies for real or imaginary crimes. As other prisoners they should to work in лесоповал or other hard works. But need for good brains and evidence that it is improper to use such people and intelligentsia for hard work made NKVD officials to suggest them to work in line with their speciality, purposeful for their country, which many of them continued after being released from the prison (and made a good carrier, became famous people). By the way, it is not my text, but it is right.--Nixer 15:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

To understand me rewrite the text replacing NKVD with SS and SU with Nazi Germany. No, the text isn't right. It is illogical, based on apology of slavery and Communism. Xx236 11:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I dont think NKVD is equal to SS. If you see some factual errors - feel free to correct, though please dont insert political propaganda.--Nixer 11:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

You are doing political propaganda. The NKVD (in several implementations) murdered more people than SS, existed longer and never was punished. One may check any piece of paper generated by the SS, but some NKVD archives remain closed.

Xx236 14:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Wether NKVD was "good" or "bad" is not relevant to this article. Its aim is simply to describe what NKVD did and what impacts it had in as neutral language as possible. To decide if putting millions of people into gulags is good or bad should be left entirely to the reader. Fornadan (t) 14:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

If you describe only successes of the NKVD but you don't describe its negative impact on Soviet economy you break basic rules of the Wiki. You are doing propaganda rather than informing. Xx236 14:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * First, NKVD physically could not murder more people than SS. That NKVD officials were not punished is also not true. SS fired many (if not most) of its archives, so you never will read them. If you find article about SS not enough neutral feel free to correct too.--Nixer 14:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I reworded the section in order to give a clear view on things. --Molobo 00:45, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * They were not forced more than any other citizen of the country. Anybody in the USSR had to work. They could refuse and continue to work with other prisoners in lesopoval. So you remark is misleading.--Nixer 18:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

You don't inform, you misinform.

The name of the section isn't "Economical successes of the NKVD". It as as it is. The NKVD destroied the Soviet economy murdering and kidnapping workers, peasants and engineers from their workplaces. According to you all Soviet people didn't work, they started to do something useful only when in camps.

NKVD took part in collectivisation, the result of which was great hunger in several republics, millions have died. Guess - what was the result of the hunger for the Soviet economy?


 * Do you know such anger was typical and regular in Tsarist era? Anger of 30s was the last one in this sequence.--Nixer 18:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hungers happen, even today. But when the government rejects foreign help, destroys food - it's a crime and destruction of economy. Xx236 14:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

NKVD officers were punished but never for their real crimes. Beria allegedly spied for Turkey. Very funny.


 * Do you know why was arrested and shot Yezhov?--Nixer 18:49, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

~ Certainly not to make justice. STalin had his ill idea to kill someone and to nominate another criminal. Xx236 14:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Even the text says: "At present, living former agents receive generous pensions and privileges established by the government of the USSR and later confirmed by all the CIS countries. They are not persecuted in any way, although some have been identified by their victims."

Xx236 13:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Gentlemen, let me also jump in. Dear Mr.Nixer, I'll refrain from judging your edits for now. However, the ideas and POV that you promote on this talk are enormously controversial, moreover, inflammatory (and, practically, trollistic - no matter if you intend to). I ask you not to include such thesises in any article of WP - without thorough referencing and, most important, balancing them with the other, prevailing and well-verified POV. And please remember that the very existence of the West, US, Internet and Wikipedia contradicts to the tasks and ideology of Soviet secret services very very much. Best wishes, Ukrained 22:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Council of Europe about Communist crimes
http://assembly.coe.int/Mainf.asp?link=/Documents/AdoptedText/ta06/Eres1481.htm Xx236 14:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

No mention of the great purge
I find it very odd that an article about NKVD neither mentions the great purge nor the man who led NKVD during that time Nikolay Yezhov. Andreas_td 20:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC+2)