Talk:NORAD Tracks Santa

In-universe style
I'm not sure if that's what you'd call it, but this article is in serious need of a clean-up to distinguish fact from fiction. Having a background story for the kids is nice and all, but this is an encyclopedia. Freyyr890 01:16, 11 December 2015 Cheddar Cheesia 23:16, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Haha J&#39;onn J&#39;onzz 03:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Duh, Santa exists in our universe. I'm not sure about Freyyr's tho. :P Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 09:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This article is a disgrace to Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.246.34.230 (talk) 18:56, 26 December 2009 (UTC) — 85.246.34.230 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

First, I'd like to say that I'm a huge fan of Santa Claus and Father Christmas, although Saint Nicholas may be long dead, the best qualities that he represented live on. I also feel that using "NORAD Tracks Santa" can be a truly magical experience for children and enormous fun for adults. Having said that, there isn't really a Santa Claus living at the North Pole and NORAD does not really use its technology and resources to follow him around the world on Christmas Eve. However, the introduction still appears to say that NORAD does just that. Furthermore, is the "NORAD's account of the tracking", a lengthy fanciful account lifted from "NORAD Tracks Santa"'s official literature, really necessary?Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 15:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)


 * NORAD Tracks Santa is a big annual effort by NORAD and many partners for the young and young at heart at the annual Christmas Season. The recent updates provide a way for people to know how NORAD Tracks Santa has changed in the first decade of the 21st Century and a way to access audio and video files from late January thru late November when NORAD Tracks Santa website is an empty shell. Tomsmith0002 (talk) 03:37, 29 December 2009 (UTC)Tomsmith0002

NORAD Tracks Santa article has been vastly expanded with the history of NORAD Tracks Santa, the websites, the celebrity messages, the photos, and the partners with over 150 references thanks to myself and tomsmith0002 BillJohnson0003 (talk) 02:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

However, the article strongly suggests that Santa Claus is a real person, which he isn't. Thankfully, the article is now marked as being written in an inappropriate style.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 07:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

The view of the NORAD Tracks Santa Program on Santa Claus is that "Based on historical data and more than 50 years of NORAD tracking information, we believe that Santa Claus is alive and well in the hearts of children throughout the world." The audience for the NORAD Tracks Santa Program are those who believe in the spirit of the winter holiday season and that Santa Claus is alive and real in one's heart. A sentiment illustrated in the editorial "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" that appeared in the September 21, 1897 issue of the New York Sun. Both Virginia's letter to the New York Sun and the editorial reply have been featured on the NORAD Tracks Santa website from its earliest years. BillJohnson0003 (talk) 19:02, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

That the official literature of "NORAD Tracks Santa" says that they believe in Santa Claus does not mean that the Wikipedia article about "NORAD Tracks Santa" should suggest that he exists, as a man who lives at the North Pole and travels around the world in one night. The Flat Earth Society belives that the world is flat. Wikipedia has an article about the Flat Earth Society but does not endorse the idea of a flat Earth. May I point out that the Wikipedia article about Santa Claus says that he is a legendary character in the opening sentence.

You are insisting on going against Wikipedia's guidelines on writing about Santa Claus as detailed in the essay SANTA. This is not a place for expressing beliefs but for the truth.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 05:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Although I support writing this article in an Real world style, Mr. Hughes's suggestion that Wikipedia has official guidelines on writing about Santa Clause is simply incorrect. Wikipedia_essays are not official Wikipedia policy or guidelines, but simply suggestions from another contributor, holding no more weight than entries on this talk page. However, there are a number of official policies relating to this issues, namely Writing about fiction. (However, this article has seen vast improvement since 2010, so this is more or less a moot point) Piboy51 (talk) 14:37, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Rewrite
This article should be rewritten. It is almost entirely a direct copy of the Santa tracking website, even using "we" in places. 81.58.34.171 13:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess that somebody was thinking the exact same thing when I wrote this. Fixed now. 81.58.34.171 13:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think it should be rewritten to exclude all of the nonfactual bullshit from the site on it. --76.73.166.12 (talk) 03:08, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

NORAD Tracks Santa article has been vastly expanded with the history of NORAD Tracks Santa, the websites, the celebrity messages, the photos, and the partners with over 150 references thanks to myself and tomsmith0002 BillJohnson0003 (talk) 02:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

CONELRAD links
The links to CONELRAD were citations for the evolution of the story. Do you really believe our "external link policy" forbids the inclusion of references?!? ➥the Epopt 05:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Part of the NORAD Tracks Santa article vast expansion with the history of NORAD Tracks Santa, the websites, the celebrity messages, the photos, and the partners with over 150 references, also includes CONELRAD and the 1964 for the tenth (10th) tracking season of NORAD Tracks Santa, NORAD's Directorate of Public Affairs and Century Records produced a commemorative album of NORAD Tracking Santa news reports with promotional spots and Christmas season music. , thanks to myself and tomsmith0002 BillJohnson0003 (talk) 02:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Discontinued?
NORAD unfourtantly will no longer track santa claus there tradition will no longer exist. despite the webstie recieving hits -MrJanitor1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrJanitor1 (talk • contribs) 18:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * If you checkout the website you will see that they are indeed going to be tracking Santa again this year. 999mal (talk) 00:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And in fact are... -- Cain Mosni (talk||contribs) 14:24, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Correct they are and so they should: if they can't follow an elderly chap in a reindeer-drawn sled around the world, then what hope for the preservation of freedom and democracy and the American way!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevinthorpe (talk • contribs)

NORAD will be tracking Santa in 2010 and in future years BillJohnson0003 (talk) 02:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Needs at least partial rewording
This article seems to insinuate that the Santa tracking is real when of course it isn't. See SANTA for more info. Deamon138 (talk) 04:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I would say that the Space Foundation recognizes the proper of role "NORAD Tracks Santa as follows - In December 2007, the Space Foundation recognized the NORAD Tracks Santa program as a Corporate Patron Level Partner in the Certified Imagination Product Category of the Space Foundation's Space Certification Program. .    The Space Foundation specifically cited NORAD and the NORAD Tracks Santa Program for their accomplishments as follows, "NORAD uses four high-tech systems to track Santa - radar, satellites, Santa Cams and jet fighter aircraft. Not only do these systems utilize a variety of technologies developed for the space program, but the tradition of tracking Santa's progress itself inspires children around the world to think about how space technology and exploration play an increasingly important role in our daily lives."

Regardless one's belief in the holiday traditions, this article with more than 150 references chronicles the story of the "NORAD Tracks Santa" effort, the partners, the changes, the websites, the travels, the interviews and a lot of information that myself (BillJohnson0003) and TomSmith0002 have put together.

And to the more than 1,200 plus people involved, this is more than "fiction", it is a fun "holiday tradition" that does its part to inspire children and the young at heart around the world to think about how space technology and exploration play an increasingly important role in our daily lives !!! BillJohnson0003 (talk) 04:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The view of the NORAD Tracks Santa Program on Santa Claus is that "Based on historical data and more than 50 years of NORAD tracking information, we believe that Santa Claus is alive and well in the hearts of children throughout the world." The audience for the NORAD Tracks Santa Program are those who believe in the spirit of the winter holiday season and that Santa Claus is alive and real in one's heart. A sentiment illustrated in the editorial "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" that appeared in the September 21, 1897 issue of the New York Sun. Both Virginia's letter to the New York Sun and the editorial reply have been featured on the NORAD Tracks Santa website from its earliest years. BillJohnson0003 (talk) 01:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

You are insisting on going against Wikipedia's guidelines on writing about Santa Claus as detailed in the essay SANTA, which I strongly suggest you read. Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 05:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

linkrot
I'm trying to fix the references into a more formal citation and fix linkrot.

Reference 11 seems to be a dead link and a Google search for it only shows one vaguely related link. I have marked it as a dead link. Would appreciate any feedback on a better way to deal with it. --Sultec (talk) 22:06, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Maybe someone who has saved the videos add them here to wikipedia -- Added links for 2002 thru 2009 and updated to good links from deadlinks for other years. Tomsmith0002 (talk) 04:33, 29 December 2009 (UTC)Tomsmith0002

2005
Can someone add the 2005 and 2006 North Pole link(s). -Y

Santa Web Cam Links now exist from 2002 thru 2009. Does anyone have 2001 and earlier links ??Tomsmith0002 (talk) 04:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)TomSmith0002

replying to tomsmith0002's comment the 2006 North Pole link is incorrect. it is the 2005. - Corrected by updated to 2006 YouTube Link for 2006 North Pole Tomsmith0002 (talk) 16:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)Tomsmith0002

In replying to Tomsmith0002 we are missing the proper 2005 Cape Canaveral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.133.101 (talk) 17:31, 30 December 2009 (UTC) we also missing the correct ISS/Egypt for 2005 it is 2004. - 69.123.133.101 (talk) 17:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC) - Uploaded 2005 You Tube for 2005 for Stop 10 - ISS/Pyramids and Stop 18 - Cape Caneceral and put in new links - Tomsmith0002 (talk) 04:16, 31 December 2009 (UTC)TomSmith0002

I have found the orignial 2005 and 2006s from another user (NORADTracksSantaDec) on YouTube. any links that look to be the original posted by Tomsmith002 will be kept here. 69.123.133.101 (talk) 10:59 AM EST, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Image in 2008 section
The image captioned "Santa location map, 2007" seems a tad political for an article about Santa Claus. Presumably Guantanamo is not where the elves are now. :) NORAD has no jurisdiction over Guantanamo Bay camp, that is exclusively US. There is no special Christmas-related significance to Guantanamo, Cuba. So why is the image shown with that name?

Perhaps the answer is that an image is needed to illustrate what a map is, or how it looks on a computer screen, and we need to use a copyrighted image? I don't think that passes the NFC test, since it can be conveyed with our own text. Should the image be removed? Franamax (talk) 05:55, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Article totally rewritten see this updated section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORAD_Tracks_Santa#Two-Dimensional_.282-D.29_Santa_Tracking_Map BillJohnson0003 (talk) 21:52, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Massive linkspam
In the last two days, a massive number of links have been added to this article, mostly by single-purpose accounts. I propose to revert back to and go forward from there. --John Nagle (talk) 00:23, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Added links for 2009 and updated to good links from deadlinks for other yearsTomsmith0002 (talk) 04:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)TomSmith0002


 * Most of the new links promote an account named "HawaiianShooter" on YouTube. --John Nagle (talk) 04:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC) -- Modified YouTube links to go directly to the Santa videos instead of using YouTube Account Channels.Tomsmith0002 (talk) 04:29, 29 December 2009 (UTC)TomSmith0002

Okay No additional Links are needed if it is available on the KOL website then no YouTube Links are required —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.133.101 (talk) 21:30, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Links provide access over the years to Santa Journey videos, news videos, and organizations not on Wikipedia. When you multiply more tan 25 staops times 7 plus years, with over 70 celebrity messages, that does result in a lot of links !!!! Particularly since this article is the only place that year round has the complete NORAD Tracks Santa story !!! BillJohnson0003 (talk) 21:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

1997-2001
If anyone has the 1997-2001 please contact me or Tomsmith0002. - MCPearl at 12:52 PM Eastern Standard Time on January 2, 2010. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MCPearl (talk • contribs) 17:52, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Anyone have the 1999 CD-ROM of Santa's Journey ?? Contact tomsmith0002@yahooo.com See these comments !! - BillJohnson0003 (talk) 21:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Because of possible upcoming Y2K (Year 2000) issues on Christmas Eve of 1999, and to ensure that children and the young at heart world-wide could monitor Santa Claus activity on Christmas Eve, which was one one of the largest waves of Santa Claus sightings in the 20th century, space.com and NORAD prepared a special CD-ROM in advance of Santa Claus' Christmas Eve journey. This CD-ROM featured high-resolution, audio-enhanced movies and telemetry data of his journey and included all the Santa Cam videos of his 1999 visits. Space.com distributed the CD-ROMs for a nominal shipping fee, after one ordered these CD-ROMs from its website. At this point, in the 21st century, these 1999 NORAD Tracks Santa season CD-ROMs are probably a collector's item.

Fact from Fiction
I still think that this article needs a serious cleanup; what would you think if you saw this at Homer Simpson's article?


 * Homer Jay Simpson is a middle-aged man who lives in Springfield, USA. He lives with his family, Marge, Bart, Lisa and Maggie, at 742 Evergreen Terrace.  He is employed by Montgomery Burns...

and so on. Notice that there is no mention that he is a completely fictional character created for a TV show designed to make fun of people. Well, the same goes for this article. It is getting closer and closer to complete lies.

ajmint (talk•email•contribs•subpages) 22:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I completely agree. "NORAD Tracks Santa" is enormous fun but it is a work of fiction. I am not denying that a lot of people, a lot of volunteers, work very hard on creating it or that it brings great joy to children but that is no excuse for an article that increasingly suggests that NORAD really uses its resources and technology to track Santa Claus from the North Pole to destinations around the world. Wikipedia is meant to be about the truth and it is not intended for children.--Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 03:06, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I would say that the Space Foundation recognizes the proper of role "NORAD Tracks Santa as follows - In December 2007, the Space Foundation recognized the NORAD Tracks Santa program as a Corporate Patron Level Partner in the Certified Imagination Product Category of the Space Foundation's Space Certification Program. .    The Space Foundation specifically cited NORAD and the NORAD Tracks Santa Program for their accomplishments as follows, "NORAD uses four high-tech systems to track Santa - radar, satellites, Santa Cams and jet fighter aircraft. Not only do these systems utilize a variety of technologies developed for the space program, but the tradition of tracking Santa's progress itself inspires children around the world to think about how space technology and exploration play an increasingly important role in our daily lives."

Regardless one's belief in the holiday traditions, this article with more than 150 references chronicles the story of the "NORAD Tracks Santa" effort, the partners, the changes, the websites, the travels, the interviews and a lot of information that myself (BillJohnson0003) and TomSmith0002 have put together.

And to the more than 1,200 plus people involved, this is more than "fiction", it is a fun "holiday tradition" that does its part to inspire children and the young at heart around the world to think about how space technology and exploration play an increasingly important role in our daily lives !!! BillJohnson0003 (talk) 04:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

That "NORAD Tracks Santa Claus" has been praised for encouraging children to take an interest in space technology and exploration shoulod be noted. The history and growing popularity of the service should be noted. The fact that more than a thousand people work on it should be noted. It doesn' t change the fact that it's a work of fiction.

There's nothing insulting about categorizing something as a work of fiction. Hamlet is a work of fiction. Moby-Dick is a work of fiction. Citizen Kane is a work of fiction.

Furthermore, being a beloved holiday tradition changes nothing. Watching A Charlie Brown Christmas is a holiday traditon but that doesn't make Charlie Brown a real person. Reading A Christmas Carol is a holiday tradition but that doesn't make Ebenezer Scrooge a real person. Reading A Visit from St. Nicholas is a holiday tradition but that doesn't make Santa Claus a real person.

It is not a question of beliefs. Unlike the Loch Ness Monster, the Yeti or Bigfoot, the existence of Santa Claus is not in dispute. There are no investigators trying to prove that he exists and a Wikipedia article should not suggest that he does.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 05:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The view of the NORAD Tracks Santa Program on Santa Claus is that "Based on historical data and more than 50 years of NORAD tracking information, we believe that Santa Claus is alive and well in the hearts of children throughout the world." The audience for the NORAD Tracks Santa Program are those who believe in the spirit of the winter holiday season and that Santa Claus is alive and real in one's heart. A sentiment illustrated in the editorial "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" that appeared in the September 21, 1897 issue of the New York Sun. Both Virginia's letter to the New York Sun and the editorial reply have been featured on the NORAD Tracks Santa website from its earliest years. BillJohnson0003 (talk) 19:02, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

You are insisting on going against Wikipedia's guidelines on writing about Santa Claus as detailed in the essay SANTA, which I strongly suggest you read.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 05:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I updated to say "NORAD purports ..." thinking that any kid that knows the meaning of "purports" probably at least suspects that there is no Santa. Maybe "Jestfully purports ..." or something might be better. Bookbrad (talk) 16:20, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Multiple issues
I have tagged this article for multiple issues. I am aware that the huge template sort of defaces the article, but this is secondary to the real problem: This article is a disgrace.

Please do not remove any issues without addressing them first:
 * Intricate detail (also known as "fancruft"): Speaks for itself.
 * Notability: Perhaps the least critical of the issues. I have never heard of this advertising stunt, but that's normal since I live on a different continent. The reason why I have included this is that most of the numerous citations to reliable sources seem to refer to Christmas infotainment, which according to WP:SENSATION is not enough to establish notability. If there is serious third-party treatment hidden in this huge article, please point it out and this issue can be removed.
 * Advert: Speaks for itself. Basically this is a summary of most of the other problems.
 * Fiction: Santa Cam appears to be a piece of fiction continued annually as a media event. If it is notable, we can cover it, but coverage has to follow the fiction guidelines, which it currently does not do.
 * In-universe: Just one example. "Fortunately the systems used by NORAD, NORAD Tracks Santa, and Santa Claus were all Y2K (Year 2000) compliant." The joke of treating Santa as real is so overused in this article that it's not even remotely funny any more.
 * Long: The article is currently at 200 KB, more than 3x the recommended maximum size. For some articles, such as William Shakespeare or United States extreme length may be justified (note that these two articles are still shorter than this one), but NORAD Tracks Santa is obviously not a key encyclopedic topic.
 * Examplefarm: The problem includes what seem to be complete lists of episodes, each with a short plot summary. That's excessive detail, contrary to encyclopedic brevity.
 * Rewrite: Obviously necessary. If the main editors of this article agree that a complete rewrite addressing the article issues is necessary, this may be the only issue that needs tagging until the task has been accomplished.
 * COI: It seems obvious that at least two of the significant editors at this article have a conflict of interest. This would not be a big problem if the state of the article did not reflect this very clearly.
 * External links: Lists of deep links to a site are not acceptable. This issue is probably the one that is easiest to address.

There are two possibilities now. (1) The main editors of this article learn about Wikipedia's content standards and make a significant contribution towards getting this article in line with them. (2) I try to get additional eyes to this article by posting at various noticeboards, such as WP:COIN and WP:CN. Hans Adler 09:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC) Hans Adler 09:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Update: Nikkimaria has done part of the necessary work. As a result I could remove "external links". The number of external links is still relatively high, but now the selection seems reasonable to me. One of the external links is really a reference to an online article, but as it's the only reference that doesn't appear in a footnote I left it as it is. The link to Jane's is broken; if we can link to the Web Archive (currently it's also broken), then that would be a second reference to an online article and a demonstration of the kind of silly season reporting that the article subject gets. Hans Adler 17:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Infobox
The article currently uses Template:Infobox military unit. It appears to me that the subject of this article is not a military unit. One could argue about whether this kind of joke is acceptable in the encyclopedia, but we have had a widespread discussion before regarding the use of Template:Infobox Military Conflict on Emu War. The result was: The infobox is not used.

I guess the simplest solution is to correct the entry under "Role". It should explain the actual role of "NORAD Tracks Santa", which I suspect is either public relations or a private undertaking by NORAD staff. Ideally the article should say which it is, really. That kind of information is why we have encyclopedias, after all. Hans Adler 17:12, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Copyright violation
There are at least two excessive quotations from the NORAD website. In my opinion they are so long (and so pointless) that they are probably not covered by fair use. I will try to cut them down to reasonable dimensions. Hans Adler 17:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Check the US Copyright law on US Federal Government works and as noted by Wikipedia itself Copyright status of work by the U.S. government. The NORAD Tracks Santa program and its website is done by the US Northern Command and NORAD Public Affairs (A dual-hatted office and administered by the US Government for copyright law purposes) in the course of their offical duties. "Under section 105 of the Copyright Act,[3] such works are not entitled to domestic copyright protection under U.S. law, sometimes referred to as "noncopyright."" Therefore there is NO COPYRIGHT and fair us is NOT an issue, baeuse there is no copyright to begin with (therefore the ENTIRE document can be reused). Complain about the length, but DO NOT CLAIM THAT that there is a Copyright violation when a "copyright" does NOT exist !!!!!! BillJohnson0003 (talk) 20:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You do know that ALL CAPS is YELLING, don't you? Please have a read at WP:CIVIL. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 20:44, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not an American and I am not a fan of this silly programme, just trying to clean up after you. You didn't bother to learn about our policies before turning this stupid article into a tumour and then even making it spread. But I am supposed to learn the details of American copyright law before I am allowed to help you? Thank you very much. Hans Adler 23:51, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Splitting this up into seven different articles is not the answer
Splitting the article up into seven different articles has not helped the situation. Since the notability of the article has already been questioned, how can the notability of something such as NORAD Tracks Santa Videos and NORAD Tracks Santa Celebrity Video and Audio Messages not be challenged? It also means that there are more articles like History of NORAD Tracks Santa and NORAD Tracks Santa Media that fail to properly distinguish fact from fiction. One problem article has been changed into seven problem articles and the quality and credibility of Wikipedia have been further damaged.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 05:11, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll agree with this, see WP:NOTDIRECTORY, wikipedia is not an exhaustive list of all details, and NOTINDISCRIMINATE, wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of material related to one topic (specially for fictional topics, where most of the detail is only going to have relevance inside the topic itself). All these lists of videos and other media need to be merged back and trimmed. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:29, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree. At least some of them fit speedy deletion criteria. --Ronz (talk) 22:17, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * For now, I've redirected them back. NORAD Tracks Santa Corporate Sponsorship and Partners and NORAD Tracks Santa Website  were the two other articles I found and redirected in addition to those listed above. --Ronz (talk) 00:37, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * BillJohnson0003 removed three of the redirects without comment. I've gone ahead and requested their speedy deletion.  If there's anything in them worth salvaging, it can be found in this history of this article prior to the information being moved. --Ronz (talk) 01:00, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

What makes the articles of Smallville, Iron Chef, Fullmetal Alchemist so special to rate greater coverage and subarticles compared to an effort that does good with 10 million plus visitors anually and puts the human face on the world's defesne against Armgaeddon - that is NORAD. For the record I am not affiliated with NORAD only a fan of NORAD as I am a fan of Smallville, Iron Chef, Fullmetal Alchemist that seem to rate bigger articles that I would never ever see in the Encyclopædia Britannica !!! BillJohnson0003 (talk) 01:13, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * On the subject of other articles: First, see WP:OSE.  Second, this article is about a pr campaign.  Third, and most importantly, the amount, quality, and coverage of independent, reliable sources on this article's topic is insignificant in comparison to those articles.
 * Thanks for responding to the COI concerns of some editors.
 * This is not Encyclopædia Britannica. --Ronz (talk) 02:11, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

What's important to bear in mind is what an article would look like if it appeared in Encyclopædia Britannica. A vast amount of the articles on Wikipedia would probably never appear in Encyclopædia Britannica but we have to attempt to write each article, regardless of the subject, in an encyclopedic style similar to that of the famous reference series.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 06:34, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikia fansite
An older version of the aricle has already been added at http://christmas.wikia.com/NORAD_Tracks_Santa I don't know about any other users who've raised objections to this page but I promise never to edit it there. It's not Wikipedia, they have different rules and guidelines and most people who go there will probably just be looking for a fun read. It could probably go on http://christmasspecials.wikia.com too, it's meant to be about films and TV specials but NORAD Tracks Santa might just qualify. An excellent place to add it would be http://santa.wikia.com where they currently have no content to speak of. Of course, it would be easy enough to create a new page at Wikia entirely devoted to NORAD Tracks Santa. All Wikipedia articles that are even remotely connected to it could be copied onto it and edited any way the community there wants. It does say to avoid linking to Wiki sites on External links but I think such a link here could prevent further grief in the future. Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 11:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

What I was just writing about has already been created at http://noradsanta.wikia.com that means that User:BillJohnson0003 will automatically be an administrator there because he started it and User:Tomsmith0002 will probably be made one as well. I know better than to even think about doing any editing there. Good luck to them, I hope they're happy there. Hopefully that's the end of the trivial spamming across dozens of Wikipedia articles. I'll also be able to forget about this article until December when a lot of normally sensible Wikipedia editors will worry about upsetting the kiddies.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 11:48, 15 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow, BillJohnson0003 is fast! He implemented my suggestion to Tomsmith0002 even before I made it! Hans Adler 12:44, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

After seeing the Wikipedia articles of Star Trek, Caprica (TV series), Smallville, and Stargate each have an encyclopedic set of entries and provide access to fan Wikis such as Star Trek Wiki, Caprica and Battlestar Wiki, Smallville Wiki, Stargate Wiki and in following up what Tomsmith0002 has asked of me ,the idea of linking the Wikipedia article to the devotee site of NORAD Tracks Wiki is brilliant and as .Simon Peter Hughes eloquently pointed out, this will prevent Wikipedia editors further grief in the future since there will be a link to direct NORAD Tracks Santa devotees to as there is with the Wikipedia articles of Star Trek, Caprica (TV series), Smallville, and Stargate.

It is always great to find a topic that everyone can agree on !!! BillJohnson0003 (talk) 02:32, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think your time would be better spent trying to understand the policies and guidelines pointed out to you, rather than trying to find articles that appear to justify the edits you want.
 * Links to those other wiki's, if appropriate at all, are exceptions to WP:ELNO #12. Noradsanta.wikia.com fails ELNO #12. --Ronz (talk) 03:50, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

My personal opinion was that a link to the new Wikia fansite could further reduce the links already on the page, we could just link to the official site(s) and the Wikia fansite. However, standard Wikipedia policy is not on my side there and I accept Ronz's decision. Well, Tomsmith0002 and BillJohnson0003, you've got your fansite now. You seem to have come to understand that you can't build your fansite on Wikipedia, now you will have to accept that you can't promote it on Wikipedia either. You'll have to find another way.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 17:55, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Addressing the issues
It has been two weeks since those editors responsible for making this such a problem article have done any further editing to it or spammed any more links to it across the rest of Wikipedia. Hopefully, from now on this can be an encyclopedia article instead of a fan page.

I have performed the following edits:
 * Trimmed the external links back down to those left by User:Nikkimaria om 8 March 2010. The Jane's article seems to be unobtainable.
 * Removed the "Santa Claus tracking system" section, it was all purely fiction.
 * Removed the "Celebrity messages" section. All it amounted to was saying that some celebrities did commercials for the program in 2005. Is that really notable?
 * Removed the music. What was listed as "NORAD Tracks Santa theme" was in fact "Sleigh Ride", written in 1946. There could be a copyright problem, besides it was just a feature of the fan page nature of the article.
 * Removed tables of statistics and list of media. Unlikely to interest the general reader.
 * Paraphrased the lengthy quotation at the start of the article. It may be in the public domain but it was also "in-universe". The colonel didn't really get his staff to find out the current location of Santa Claus, for obvious reasons.
 * Rewrote text to remove remaining "in-universe" sentences and tone down the promotional nature of the article.
 * Reduced the number of sections.
 * Removed the military infobox because no evidence has been offered that NORAD Tracks Santa is considered to be a seperate military unit.

I think this really leaves the issue of reliable third-party references and with it the question of notability.

It's also worth pointing out that the copyright status of most of the images that have accompanied this article has been questioned on Wikimedia Commons and false claims have been made about some of them being in the public domain, as can be seen here. That's something that future editors should bear in mind.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 14:20, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of replacing the multiple issues tag with a primary sources one. I think that all the unencyclopedic content has been either removed or rewritten in a more suitable style. The only remaining issue is the references. There are certainly plenty of them but almost all of them link back to NORAD's website or to those of their sponsors. Third party references are lacking.Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 11:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Col Shoup
A picture of Col. Shoup, and maybe even the briefest of bio info, would be cool.PurpleChez (talk) 16:13, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Problem seems to have moved to Santa Claus article
There is now a certain amount of in-universe NORADcruft at Santa Claus, added recently by a new user whose name is very similar to those of the two editors previously responsible for the mess at the present article. Hans Adler 12:28, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Concerns of NORAD Sock and Meat Puppetry ??
Why is every editor who dares goes against the British-German editor "clique" on the NORAD Tracks Santa article accused of being a "sock puppet" or a "meat puppet" of NORAD and NORAD Public Affairs (who are supposedly in the guise of banned users) ??

User:Jack Sebsation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jack_Sebastian) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Santa_Claus/Archive_8#Santa_tracking_websites had to counsel and caution both Simon Peter Hughes and Hans Adler against wholesale reversion and how "I don't believe that the consensus you speak of is that clear, Hans.I'll let other people chime in before commenting, though. I will additionally point out that arbitrarily turning the clock back to your favored version is not only non-conducive (because it's always going to get reverted) but not really in keeping with the idea of collaborative editing. When you remove a lot of contributions, you are saying that their contributions aren't important. But lets get some input from others. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC) "

I am also following the Wikiepdia dictum as articulated by Jack Sebasation of "we are doing what we are specifically tasked to do - we report that which is reliably sourced. Period. Anything else is superfluous. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 07:47, 27 December 2010 (UTC) " and "There are cited sources supporting each of the statements made, and citations beat the living snot out of anything but citations directly' opposing it. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 07:47, 27 December 2010 (UTC" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Santa_Claus/Archive_8#Santa_tracking_websites

I see great material out on the Internet. I go and find substantiating sources beyond a set of Wiki's and blogs to other websites and newspapers and other places.

This arbitrary approach of banning editors as "meat puppets" and "Sock puppets" of NORAD is bull crap.

I also have a letter from NORAD above attesting to my independence here below on "Certification from NORAD Public Affairs as to Editors Independence." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Albert z chan (talk • contribs) 15:03, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Albert z chan (talk) 15:10, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

To verify independence contact these. - They are the government and you can trust the government.

Contact - HQ NORAD Public Affairs Office at Telephone: (719) 554-2608/6889 and E-mail of nnc.pa.nts.omb@northcom.mil

Albert z chan (talk) 16:44, 30 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Anyone can claim to be anyone on WP - positng "letters" is not any kind of proof whatsoever. Nor can we as editors makes calls to verify information, that is not how WP works. And as far as "trusting the government" goes, HAHAHA. We could start with the Tuskeegee Experiment, and go down from there! - BilCat (talk) 22:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)


 * For the benifit of other editors, I would like to point out that Albert z chan was not accused of being a sock puppet of NORAD. He was accused of being a sock puppet of a banned user. --Simon Peter Hughes (talk) 15:14, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Undue weight: What to change?
Ronz added the undue weight template to a new addition to the article, but I disagree with this. I simply don't see how this is undue. What are some other viewpoints on this, and what can be changed to remove this so-called undue influence? — Huntster (t @ c) 00:56, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not undue influence. It's giving briefly mentioned information (available from a single source, where it is a very small portion) too much prominence in this article. Trim it. --Ronz (talk) 02:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

File:Official NORAD Santa Tracker - Theme Music.ogg
Should we add File:Official NORAD Santa Tracker - Theme Music.ogg to this article? 76.65.128.132 (talk) 09:27, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * To be blunt, I see no reason to add this to the article. I don't see how it strengthens the material, or would act as anything other than a filler. — Huntster (t @ c) 21:20, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Cities visited on web site
Does anyone know why a city is depicted as a stop for Santa by Norad? They seem to be a combination of major cities along with US military bases. 2 stops in 2010 and possibly 2011 were Roswell, New Mexico and Enderby Land, Antartica. (Have screen shots of both)22yearswothanks (talk) 03:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on NORAD Tracks Santa. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111225033711/http://www.noradsanta.org/en/track3d.html to http://www.noradsanta.org/en/track3d.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130523121156/http://forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=3985 to http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=3985
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130703170911/http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=3987 to http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=3987
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110919135446/http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/news/display.cfm?News_ID=4004 to http://sse.jpl.nasa.gov/news/display.cfm?News_ID=4004

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Lede
There seems to have been some previous discussion on the talk page, although it is not clear what the resolution was. The lede, as it reads is factually incorrect. The project does not track Santa as he leaves the North Pole, since Santa certainly does not exist. The project tracks an imaginary Santa in his journey. My previous edit on this issue was reverted with the comment that "kids look at this page." However, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; its objective is not to perpetuate culturally specific fairy tales. In fact, precisely because some children might take it seriously, it is important not to perpetuate fables on Wikipedia. So, I am re-editing it to make it factually precise. Of course, if someone would like to claim that the project really tracks Santa Claus, I would very much appreciate an RS to that effect. Jacob2718 (talk) 09:51, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

This is part of a broader problem with this page. As someone pointed out above, the page does a poor job of distinguishing fact and fiction. The idea seems to be that this page should serve to perpetuate a fable for kids, and so the fact that several elements are clearly fictitious is excusable. However, this is an example of WP:BIAS. The story of Santa Claus is culturally specific; and far from universal around the world. Other cultures have other fables, and in general pages that refer to these fables do not refer to them as if they are real. This is appropriate since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. But this also means that the pages on Santa Trackers should edited to make them encyclopedic. Jacob2718 (talk) 10:04, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The question of whether or not you believe in Santa does not fall within Scope of this page. All reliable sources, including NORAD itself, claim they track Santa on Christmas Eve. Regardless on if you believe Santa is real or not, references to this page provide that Santa is factual and real. FirstDrop87 (talk) 16:36, 25 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't think that NORAD counts as an RS here! But, in any case, the accurate statement is then that "NORAD claims that it tracks Santa ..." I hope you do not want to revert to "NORAD tracks Santa" as a statement of fact, which would be absurd. Second, it is important to mention that this is part of Pentagon public outreach. I've added that and a reference. Jacob2718 (talk) 02:14, 26 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I continue to disagree. There are no reliable sources that dispute the tracking of Santa by NORAD. To the contrary, many reliable sources support the fact that NORAD does indeed track Santa every year. FirstDrop87 (talk) 14:25, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Screenshots copyright?
I took a few screenshots of the 2020 version where Santa is wearing a face mask, and I'd like to upload one for posterity. Does anyone know if the tracker interface is public domain (as a federal project) or under copyright? I'd like to know which license I should use before uploading. Tisnec (talk) 22:01, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

December 2021
@MrOllie There needs to be a disclaimer that the content involves fictional subjects. Otherwise this article is written in an in-universe style. Kuhnaims (talk) 15:30, 27 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I've tried to reduce the in-universe style as much as possible. Which part of the article do you think is still written in an in-universe style? Félix An (talk) 15:31, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * 2nd line, tracking Santa Claus, i think there should be an adjective to stress that Santa is fictional in context of NORAD, like mythical or legendary Kuhnaims (talk) 15:37, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * There have been lots of discussions about this over the years, (particularly on the talk page of the main article about Santa Claus) and the consensus has been that words like 'mythical' and 'fictional' are not really accurate. Stylistically, we also should not repeat the same point multiple times, particularly in the opening sentences. The lead of the article clearly states that this is a simulation, and that is enough. MrOllie (talk) 15:36, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The lede sentence already uses the word "simulates" and the lede of Santa Claus uses the word "legendary." That is sufficient; while Wikipedia is not censored for children, we also don't need to bludgeon the fictional/legendary of Santa at every opportunity. OhNo itsJamie Talk 15:37, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure, but how exactly is mythical/fictional inaccurate? You do realise Santa isn't real...? Kuhnaims (talk) 15:39, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Santa Claus is an exaggerated version of a real, historical person called Nicholas of Myra. Something that is 'fictional' originated in fiction rather than in history. MrOllie (talk) 15:47, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Santa Denialism
Santa Claus is a real person and he lives at the North Pole. Every Christmas Eve, he delivers presents to good children. NORAD tracks this activity as part of its general commitment to track objects within the North American airspace. Certain disaffected persons circulate the scurrilous and false notion that Santa does not exist based on a false concept called "scientism." NORAD tracks Santa, and it is very bad for North American air security to deny the existence of Santa Claus, because it is obviously false. If we can't trust NORAD, who can we trust? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:7D68:4700:5093:B502:9BEE:B045 (talk) 09:57, 28 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Please see WP:FRINGE. Félix An (talk) 14:03, 28 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Also, WP:SANTA specifically addresses this issue. BilCat (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Add in WP:DNFT.  Ravensfire  (talk) 18:49, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Simulates
This edit is simply bad writing and confused phrasing. Please don't start up this edit warring about Santa all over again. It was disruptive last time around, and we don't need to go through it again. MrOllie (talk) 02:14, 14 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The lead you are trying to restore was changed by someone who put "Keeping the magic just for today pls" (see the edit history). Wikipedia is not a website for that. Félix An (talk) 02:27, 14 March Félix An (talk) 02:31, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Additionally, please see the history of the talk page and you will see the many issues with this in the past (before I was actively editing Wikipedia). Félix An (talk) 02:32, 14 March 2024 (UTC)