Talk:Nabarl

Aira versus Ayra
It seems that someone doesn't appear to understand.

The game was never translated, so there is no "right" way of spelling her name.

Bahahahahaha. By that logic, I could call her Bob.

Ayra. Is. Incorrect. Pronunciation. Therefore. It. Is. Wrong.

Ira is her 'official' japanese name, but people get angry at that because it's a male name over here.

Aira is pronounced the same as Ira, therefore it is a valid alternative. Any other spellings one can think of that sound the same? Valid. Ila and Aila are are also both valid due to the whole l/r thing. Ayra... is not. --Dark Twilkitri 04:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm using the most popular internet name for her, which is pronounced the same as Aira. We also have an article called Ayra. It's easier for random users to understand who this article is referring to when you use the same spelling. If you must have it spelled Aira, change the Ayra article. :-FreePepsi 07:16, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The beginning of Ayra is pronounced the same way as hay, way, and so forth. The beginning of Aira is pronounced the same way as eye.


 * There would be no point to moving the Ayra article because Tedius would just move it back.

--Dark Twilkitri 16:50, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You haven't explained to him why it's wrong? - FreePepsi 20:11, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Tedius is immune to explanations. --Dark Twilkitri 03:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have switched all mentions of the name Ayra in the article to Ira. I don't care if a couple people like to think of one of the least feminine women in the Fire Emblem series to be a bit more feminine by giving her a different name, the official translation is Ira. Since this is wikipedia and not a fan website, it is the proper name. Thunk 00:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ira is the official japanese translation, not the official english translation which is nonexistant. Official japanese translations count for almost nothing because they fail horribly at translating names to english. Hi, Siglud!
 * Frankly, the whole debate over whether Aira is feminine or not is just pathetic. ZOMG SHE HAS NO CONVERSATIONS WITH OTHER WOMEN SO MASCULINE SHE IS. People didn't like the name because it's an actual male name, not because it sounds male. --Dark Twilkitri 03:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Guy versus Everyone
''20/20 stats are useless when evaluating a unit outside of the LA. Nobody will ever reach it normally.''

Nobody who plays the game the way it's meant to be played (ie: for rankings) will reach it normally. People who play for Link Arena will reach it. People who play for supports will likely reach it. People who play just to win will probably reach it with several characters, since disallowing characters from reaching 20/20 and thus becoming experience drains is one of the CHALLENGES involved in playing for rankings...

In any case, you're telling one of the main pushers for not using 20/20 stats to mean anything that they're worthless? How wonderful.

It seems that you're missing the entire point.

Average!Guy is bad. Always. Bringing up 20/20 is meaning to say that he is even bad at 20/20. Not that he's bad at 20/20 and not beforehand.

''Who is Guy bad compared to? Karel?...Karla...Raven''

They're all crap. Karla is in the running for worst character in the GAME. Guy and Karel are both pathetic. Raven is somewhat better than Guy, yes, since he can actually do reasonable damage to things.

His con will cripple him if he uses axes, however.

...an Iron Axe weighs ten. He has 9 con. Coupled with one never needing to use anything heavier than Iron weapons. One attack speed loss is not 'crippled'.

He also comes underleveled.

...you're trying to say that Raven comes underlevelled to a guy that uses unpromoted people all the way up to Victory or Death? Bahaha. NINO comes underlevelled, and even then it's not a problem getting her EXP WITHOUT RUINING YOUR RANKINGS. Raven... does not come underlevelled. Nowhere near it.

When he is recruited, he'll mostly likely outclass your team in terms of killing things for a while.

You're... kidding, right? Guy, outclass people at killing things? Guy, who it takes several turns to kill BRIGANDS on ELIWOOD NORMAL? He'll outclass MATTHEW, maybe. And Serra. Possibly Rebecca, who's just as bad as he is. Outclass Oswin, Marcus, Hector, Lowen, Eliwood, Dorcas, Bartre? No. No way in heck. Even Bartre only hitting once does more damage than Guy hitting twice WITH triangle advantage.

This is not of course to say that Guy is unusable. He's quite usable, since FE7's enemies fail at life. But being usable doesn't mean he's good at all. Karla is usable. --Dark Twilkitri 04:52, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Nobody who plays the game the way it's meant to be played (ie: for rankings) will reach it normally. People who play for Link Arena will reach it. People who play for supports will likely reach it. People who play just to win will probably reach it with several characters, since disallowing characters from reaching 20/20 and thus becoming experience drains is one of the CHALLENGES involved in playing for rankings...


 * Yes, I was talking about playing through normally. Hence the "Nobody will ever reach it normally."


 * As much as it pains me, ranking playthroughs are not normal for the majority of people. The majority of people WILL have several characters at 20/20.


 * The reason I dislike using 20/20 stats is caps. Charaters may reach and have the ability to pass them. I feel it's better to compare units at midgame.


 * Average Guy is bad. Always. Bringing up 20/20 is meaning to say that he is even bad at 20/20. Not that he's bad at 20/20 and not beforehand.


 * Alright, I understand your reasoning now. Let's talk about 20/20 Guy and Raven for a second. Compared to Raven: Guy has 4 less HP, 6 less strength, 1 more skill, 4 more speed, 3 less defense, 2 more resistance, and 8 more luck. The only significant lead Raven has over Guy is strength. Guy will dodge more. Raven's strength lead can be countered by Guy's critical rate, depending on whether or not you depend on crits. Note: I'm not saying Guy is better than Raven. I'm saying he isn't crap compared to him.


 * Taking a random enemy sniper from FE7j Cog of Destiny, it has 7 defence. Raven and Guy are both using Iron Swords.
 * Raven's critical rate is 13. Power is 30. Normal damage is 23, critical damage is 69. Average damage is .13 x 69 + .87 x 23 = 28.98.
 * Guy's critical rate is 29. Power is 24. Normal damage is 17, critical damage is 51. Average damage is .29 x 51 + .71 x 17 = 26.86.


 * All Guy has over Raven is a dodge lead.


 * Okay. Raven's better. That wasn't my point.


 * ...an Iron Axe weighs ten. He has 9 con. Coupled with one never needing to use anything heavier than Iron weapons. One attack speed loss is not 'crippled'.


 * Let me add more to my point: Raven will not be able to use higher tier axes well because of his low con. You can't discount that as a weakness just because the game is already easy as hell.


 * Since he's never going to NEED to use any higher-ranked axes, I find that highly irrelevant. He really wants a higher one? Killer Axe weighs him down by 2 and Silver Axe weighs him down by 3. Still not seeing the crippling.


 * Not crippled, but disadvantaged. If it's a weakness, it's a weakness. Not a significant weakness, but still one.


 * ...you're trying to say that Raven comes underlevelled to a guy that uses unpromoted people all the way up to Victory or Death? Bahaha. NINO comes underlevelled, and even then it's not a problem getting her EXP WITHOUT RUINING YOUR RANKINGS. Raven... does not come underlevelled. Nowhere near it.


 * Raven comes on chapter 16 at level 5. He probably won't get any levels until chapter 16x. Eliwood's tale starts at chapter 11. That's six chapters full of experience for your other units.


 * This is relevant how?


 * I highly doubt your units will only be level 5 by 16x.


 * Do we have different definitions of underlevelled? Underlevelled compares to enemies, not to your own characters...


 * Yes, yes we do.


 * You're... kidding, right? Guy, outclass people at killing things? Guy, who it takes several turns to kill BRIGANDS on ELIWOOD NORMAL? He'll outclass MATTHEW, maybe. And Serra. Possibly Rebecca, who's just as bad as he is. Outclass Oswin, Marcus, Hector, Lowen, Eliwood, Dorcas, Bartre? No. No way in heck. Even Bartre only hitting once does more damage than Guy hitting twice WITH triangle advantage.


 * I'll be comparing them all at level three. I won't include Oswin, Dorcas, and Marcus because they'll definitely be better than Guy at the time.


 * Because everyone being level 3 at this point is likely >_>


 * How about level 4 then?


 * Bartre : HP Bar +8, STR Bar +3, SKL Guy +6, SPD Guy +8, DEF Guy +1, RES =, LUC Guy +1.
 * Guy w/ iron sword - 11 MT and 11 AS vs. Bartre with iron axe - 17 MT and 3 AS.
 * Bartre has a huge lead in MT but Guy's AS destroys him. Guy will survive quite a bit more longer, with his defensive stat lead.


 * ...a one in defence beats an 8 in HP, now?


 * I was counting speed as a defensive stat. As for Bartre's HP lead, it's definitely a factor, but he doesn't have the defense to back it up. Coupled in with the fact that he'll barely dodge anything, I'd say Guy wins in survivablity.


 * I may have overestimated Bartre's power, though. But the enemy only needs 5 defence for their total damage to be equal (or 6 if Guy has WTA). This is all assuming you take Bartre as only having gone up one level, of course.


 * At level 4, the only thing that changes is that Bartre's strength lead gets one more point. I'd prefer Guy's 17 dodge and 8 AS lead over Bartre's 4 strength.


 * Eliwood : HP Guy +1, STR Guy +1, SKL Guy +5, SPD Guy +4, DEF =, RES =, LUC Eli +2.
 * Guy w/ iron sword - 11 MT and 11 AS vs. Eliwood w/ iron sword - 11 MT and 7 A.
 * Guy wins because of his dodge and AS lead.


 * There is no way Eli is only going to be level 3 here (unless you're playing Hector mode, perhaps. And even then...).


 * Level 4 Eliwood evens up the difference in HP and strength and gains a point of speed, res, and luck. Guy still leads in dodge and AS. At level 5, there still isn't much difference as Eli just gets one point of defense, skill, and HP. They're pretty much equal aside from Guy's speed.


 * Lowen : HP Low +2, STR Low +1, SKL Guy +6, SPD Guy +4, DEF Low +2, RES =, LUC Guy +2.
 * Guy w/ iron sword - 11 MT and 11 AS vs. Lowen w/ iron sword - 12 MT anad 7 AS.
 * Guy has a big lead in dodging and will double more. Lowen's most important lead is 2 defense.


 * Enemy pretty much has to be a Myrmidon, or the character you're using to be Bartre or Hector, for you to not double anything in the early levels. What Guy's going to double over Lowen is negligible. Only the Myrmys, and you want Lowen to be fighting them and not Guy anyway because of WTA.
 * Lowen is also far more likely to be using an Iron Lance, not an Iron Sword. Who uses swords when they can use lances (assuming WTA isn't involved)?


 * The iron lance gives Lowen a 3 MT lead. When Lowen's level 4, it's Guy's 9 dodge and 6 AS versus Lowen's 3 MT and 2 def. Lowen wins, but the gap isn't huge.


 * Hector : HP Guy +1, STR Hec +2, SKL Guy +6, SPD Guy +6, DEF Hec +3, RES =, LUC Guy +2.
 * Guy w/ iron sword - 11 MT and 11 AS vs. Hector w/ iron axe - 16 MT and 5 AS.
 * Hector will do a lot more damage in one hit while Guy will double a lot more. They'll survive about as long, so they're more or less equal. - FreePepsi 09:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Which once again depends on the enemy's defence... as for saying that they'll survive about as long, though...


 * It's Guy's 13 dodge versus Hector's 3 defense. I don't see neither having a big lead. Hector slightly beats him, but not by much.


 * This is also assuming that Hector's only gotten two levels, which is somewhat less likely than Eliwood having only gotten two. --Dark Twilkitri 17:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hector level 4 gains 1 more HP, skill and speed. That would make it Guy's 12 dodge versus Hector's 3 defense. There isn't much change. At Hector 5, it'll be Guy's 11 dodge versus Hector's 4 defense. Hector wins, but still doesn't totally outclass Guy in terms of survivability.


 * The numbers are indeed saying that Guy isn't drastically beaten by most people... at this point. Instead he's about equal, vaguely above or vaguely below most excepting Marcus and Oswin (why Dorcas was excluded is beyond me, but whatever). I will concede this.


 * About the Dorcas thing: I left him out because he comes in Lyn's tale, so he'll likely have more levels than your other units, assuming you use him.


 * However, this is still nothing like When he is recruited, he'll mostly likely outclass your team in terms of killing things for a while.. --Dark Twilkitri 04:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I exaggerated greatly on that point. Anyways, what units do you think severly outclass Guy in the end game? Minus the obvious ones (Hector, Oswin, ect.)


 * Hm. Assuming physical characters only... Dart, even if I'll never use him. Eliwood, against common belief. Farina, even if I'll never hire her. Fiora. Lyn, even if I'll never promote her. Sain. That's just the characters that severely outclass him, though, I think a lot of characters somewhat outclass him. --Dark Twilkitri 03:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Dart, the Lords, and Fiora I see, Farina not so much. Maybe Sain too. Could you explain that one?
 * Farina isn't really useful at all. Like Nino, she comes at an very low level and there are already two perfectly good units in her class that come way earlier than her and can be promoted by the time she's recruited. There's also that price thing, though it won't be a huge problem in HNM. Slightly better stats isn't enough reason to use her over her sisters. Guy comes early, has no price, and will stay useful throughout the game. Statwise, they're almost equal except for Guy's better speed and Farina's huge defense and resistance leads. - FreePepsi 06:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Sain, enough speed to double most enemies, and his strength completely eclipses Guy's. He has problems with skill, but that can be accounted for in many cases with weapon triangle. He can also use Lances and Axes for even more of a damage lead.
 * Okay. There's also that whole mounted thing, so yeah, Sain is overall the better unit.
 * Farina, again enough speed to double most and more strength than Guy, but mostly the defense and resistance leads that you mentioned yourself. Being able to take damage > being able to dodge it, and it's even better when the character in question is already a good dodger. As for her starting low level... she starts at level 12, which is nothing like Nino who starts at level 5 several chapters later. I don't call 12 at that point especially low either ._.


 * Yeah... I stated that she was better than Guy, statwise. Though I could have been more clear, so forgive me. 12 isn't Nino-low, but still low. Farina will still require a bit babying to get her up to par with your other units. Florina starts at 1, but has Lyn's Tale and nine chapters of HM over Farina. Fiora doesn't have quite as much of a level lead, but will still be higher than Farina. Both have stats comparable to Farina minus strength.


 * As far as I was aware, we were discussing which characters outclassed Guy statwise, not which characters were more useful ingame... if Farina is excluded Dart should be also.
 * Uh, nearly all of my points on Farina are about usability. Why didn't you say anything sooner? As for that Dart thing, I consider him better than Guy because of better support partners and actual strength growth. The only important thing Guy has over Dart is skill and supports can (mostly) take care of that.
 * Because before I thought you were mainly trying to say she wasn't as good as she is, not that she didn't have high usability. And I was saying that Dart should be excluded on usability grounds if Farina was, nothing about his stats. --Dark Twilkitri 10:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Dart is nothing like Farina in terms of usability. He doesn't come late, have a price, or start a low level compared to your units. Also, I do consider stats a factor in usability, just not the most important factor.
 * Doesn't have a price? A 50k hit to your funds ranking isn't a price? Unless you don't know how the funds ranking works, or you've changed your opinion on what a normal playthrough is... Or I misinterpreted you, which isn't that improbable, it having happened numerous times already apparently ._. --Dark Twilkitri 08:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, you got me there. Since we're not arguing any other points, is it safe to say that we're done?
 * I guess so. --Dark Twilkitri 10:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There isn't much to say when comparing Dart to Guy. Both come early at decent levels. Both will prove to be great units throughout the game. Dart just his job better than Guy does his.


 * I take unpromoted characters into Victory or Death. Farina being a reasonably high level unpromote several chapters before that doesn't bother me at all. --Dark Twilkitri 01:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay. That's you.


 * there are already two perfectly good units in her class that come way earlier than her and can be promoted by the time she's recruited
 * I'm generally nigh on Victory or Death before I promote a pegasus... --Dark Twilkitri 11:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * ...and I usually have one of the sisters promoted at Living Legend. You also get the first Elysian Whip on Pirate Ship. Still, I'm dropping this point, as it's based on play styles and such. - FreePepsi 23:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what's so wrong with Guy. There is no way in hell he'll outclass everybody, true, but on my last playthrough he maxed out STR, SKL and SPD, his HP was 55, and his LUCK was at 23. Granted, his DEF and RES were pretty bad (at 12 and 10 respectively) but he's not awful. And Raven is definatly one of the best characters in the game! On my new playthrough, I've only had him for two chapters but he's Lv.12 now and he evades everyone and kills everything.

Guy and Raven are the best swordsmen you can get in the game. Shame that a well-trained Dart with a Swordslayer will crush them all though. heh.