Talk:Nadar (caste)/Archive 2

Nadar is the abbreviation for Nadalvar (Nadu+Alvar)
Nadalvar or Mara Nadalvar is the correct name for the Kshatriyas of Pandiya Kula Alvars (Kshatriyas).Even during the oppressive periods between 1550 to 1900 Nadars of Travancore always referred to themselves as Nadalvar Kulam. Nadalum Ramavanmanukkum Nadalvar Kulathil Penn Kodom was an old saying among the Nadars of Kerala. Ramavarma ruling Travancore in 1813 in whose times Nadar community was persecuted.

Nadavas of Thulunad could be related to Nadars (Nadalvars)
The Thulu Pandyan kingdom of ancient times gave rise to Alupas kingdom.The Alupas kings had the title Sri Pandya Dhanajaya and claimed to belong to Pandyavamsha.The emblem of the Kingdom was Double fish. The ancient Pandyan Kingdom of Madurai also issued coins with double fish. The Nadava or Nadavaru of Tulunad (Mangalore) could descend from the ancient Pandyan kingdom of Mangalore.Nadava could be a synonym for Nadalvar aristocrats of the Pandyan kingdom. In the later periods Nadavas could have joined a Nair like northern tribe of Bunts, and became a sub caste of Bunts.

Nadars are Villavar rulers of Pandyan Country
Villavars (Bowmen or archers)and Meenavars (fishermen) are the two ancient dynasties among the Dravidians who ruled the whole of India in the ancient times.The Villavar may represent the Cheras while Minavar many represent Pandyas. The Minavars and Villavars founded the Pandyan kingdom in the ancient times. Nadars are the Villavar warriors of the Pandyan kingdom or the Meenavar kingdom who formed the ruling dynasty. Enadhy or Enadi was an ancient title of Nadars. Enadhy Nayanar was a saint believed to belong to the Shanar tribe. Enadi ( Eyinan (Archer) + Adhi (ancient)),an ancient title of Nadars clearly indicates their villavar origins.The Villavar (Archer) Rulers Pandyan or Panayudaya nadu(Thamraparni area with the capital at Tenkasi)who integrated the Meenavar or fishermen country founded the ancient Pandyan dynasty with the capital at Korkai. The related Villavar clans of Kerala founded the Chera dynasty.The Chera kingdom had Bow and arrow as the insignia. The Chera kings added the title Villavar to their titles. All the Villavar clans added the title Alwar,Alvar or Aluvar. Similarly the Thulu Pandyan dynasty (The Alupas kingdom) added Aluvar or Aluva or Alwa.The Pandyan equivalent people of Tulunad are Nadavas who mixed with Bunts(a North Indian people who came from Ahichatra in UP)and have become a subcaste of Bunts. The Chera kings also added Alwar as title.Eg Kulasekhara alwar, the Chera King who wrote Perumal Thirumozhi in 801 ad. Nadalvar is the title of the Pandyan aristocracy in ancient times. Many of the Alwars of the Chera and Pandyan dynasty became Vaishnavaite saints who often took the title Pattar leading to the mistaken belief that they were brahmins.Perialvar belonged to Sri Villiputhur or Sri Villuputhur, had the title Azhvar clearly indicate the Pandyan(Villavar) origins. Further Perialvar had the title Patta Naadan. The Villavar clans of Pandyan origin are are Nadalvar ( Nadar)Nadavas of Karnataka Nalavar of Sri Lanka. The Villavar of Chera Kingdom,Illava or Ezhavas of Chera Kingdom with origins at Sri Lanka, Billavas of Karnataka. In north India Villavar and Meenavar are Bhil Meenas of Rajastan, Meenas of Rajastan and Bhils of North India who form the Rajput Kshatriya clans.

Nadars are Villavar Bowmen warriors who mixed with Meenavar or fishermen and assumed the title Nadalvar (rulers of the country)or Meenavan or Pandiyan.

Pandiya (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Shanar Malai
After the Nayakar invasion around 1550s many Nadar families were forced to escape to the Western Ghats where they had hideouts from the time immemorial. From 1550s to 1700s many Nadar families fearing reprisals from Naickers reesided in the Shanar Malai, somewhere near Shencottah.

nadarhistory (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The Pandiya Nadu and the role of Villavars and Meenavars
The Pandiya Nadu was founded by the Villavars of Mara vamsam who mixed with the Meenavars of Korkai near the modern Tuticorin. The Villavars of Tamraparni assumed the title Mara Nadalvar or Nadar and the Royal house was established at Tenkasi.Panaiyudaya Nadu (Tamraparni banks) in the modern Thirunelveli gave the Pandyan kingdom its name.The Pandyan kingdom was among the first kingdoms of India and may have a history of many thousand years. Ist Sangha age lasted for about 3800yrs Second Sangha age about 4000 yrs and the Third about 2000 yrs.The recorded history of the last Pandyan kingdom is from 600 BC.Thus Nadars descend from the primitive Dravidian archers who founded the Pandyan kingdom.

Nadar or Nadalvars are the Villavars who mixed with the Meenavar in the ancient times and founded the Mara Nadar dynasty of the Pandyan kingdom. Nadavas of Karnataka of the Tulu Pandyan kingdom may have common origins. Villavars and Meenavars founded most of the Indian kingdoms ancient times. In the North India they were called Bhils and Meenas.

Marar, Mara Vamsam and Mara Nadar
Nadars were called Marar or Maravamsam or unchanging permanent people of the Pandyan country. The dynasty of Pandyan rulers were called Mara Nadalvars or Mara Nadar.

Panaya and Panayudaya and Pandya were the titles of ancient Nadars
Pana(The Palm tree) gives the name of the Pandyan country or Panayudaya Nadu. Similarly the Pandyan rulers were called Panaya Mara or Pandya Mara (Nadar).

Panaya Mara Pandyan kings of Sri Lanka

All the Villavar tribes including that of Pandyan country were involved in the cultivation of Palm trees and Coconut trees.

Pandiya (talk) 13:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The ancient titles of Mara Nadars
Maran, Marayan,Maravarman or Mara Rayan used to denote the Pandyan monarchs. Nadalvar, Nadavar, Nadar are the regional rulers or Governors of the Pandyan kingdom. Nattars are village heads. Sivanthi Nadars were the elite suicidal army. Karukku Pattayathars were the heavy armed soldiers who guarded the palace entrance. Kodi Marathars defended the Pandyan flag. Gramony is the sanskritised form of Nadalvar appointed as officers in the Pallavan kingdom. Chanars are the iron armed soldiers (Chan= iron weapon). Pullu Kai Chanar are the Nadars armed with spears or stakes (Pullu). Panikkars were the Martial art trainers.Vaidyars were the doctors. Asans were teachers and proponents of Black magic and Science.

Meenas (talk) 13:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Pandiya Kula Kshatriya : The Kshatriyas (alvar) belonging to the Pandyan dynasty. Mara Nadar or Mara Nadalvar : Nadars belong to the Mara vamsam a Villavar ruler (alvar) clan of Pandyan country.

Nadars and Religeon
Nadars like their Pandyan ancestors had Dravidian religeon with its gods (Murugan(God of Hill and Paddy fields), Mari(raingod),Isaki(Protector),Sudalai Madan(God of graveyards)with inclusion of few Aryan gods such as Shiva from the ancient times.Murugan was the Major god of Nadars.The Nadars were Jains in the ancient times starting from the origin of Jainism. The Nadars always had a syncretic religeon with Jainism and Dravidian Hindu religeon mixed together. In the eigth century Vaishnavaite religeon was introduced to the Pandyan kingdom.In the last thousand years though Jainism dissappeared the principles used to influence Nadars.In the 1500s some Nadars converted to Roman Catholic religeon by the Portuguese.Vallikada Panikar of Kerala is believed to one family among them.By 1800s Nadars had lost the Pandyan kingdom to Telugu invaders and were outcasts in their own country when the European missionaries converted them to Protestantism religeon later called CSI. The modern Nadars are mostly Hindus or Christians while some are mixture of both.

Pandiya (talk) 13:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Extent of Pandiyan kingdom
The area of Pandiyan kingdom gives the approximate area inhabited by the Nadar community in the ancient times. In the ancient times Whole of Kerala, Southern and eastern Tamil Nadu and Southern Karnataka (Tulunad) and whole of Sri Lanka(which was called Taprobane after Tamraparni) was under the Pandyan rule. Southern and Eastern Tamil Nadu, Southern Kerala (all the areas south of Trichur)was under the Pandiyan kingdom with the capital at Madurai till 880 AD. When Plini the elder vistied Kerala in 100 ad the Pandyans were ruling from Thiruvattuvai Nadu near the modern Thiruvalla. After the Chera rule was established in the Northern kerala a small Pandyan territory called Vallabha nadu which extended from Palaghat Malappuram and Gudalur districts existed but under the Chera Suzernity. The Tulunadu Pandyan kingdom separated from the Nadar ruled southern Pandyan kingdom before 2000 yrs probably ruled by the Nadavas.

The Cheras and Pandyas
The Cheras and Panydyas were related Villavar clans. The Cheras had principalities inside Pandyan territories and vice versa.

The Chera assumed the title Alvar while the Pandiya assumed the title Nadalvar, Nadar.

Pandiya (talk) 15:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Venad, Nairs and Nadars
The Cheras or Villavars who founded the Chera kingdom were originally related to Nadars.The original Chera kingdom came to an end in the 1120 AD. The Chera descendents shifted their capital to Quilon and ruled Travancore in the southern Kerala 1120 to 1314 AD.The last Chera king Ravivarma Kulasekhara Sangramadheera was married into Pandyan family and had the title Ko Maranaya Sri Kulasekhara Ravi Varma.After the Muslim invasion he occupied the Pandiyan Kingdom himself. His son Veera Udayamarthandavarma had the title Veera Pandiya. After 1314 AD the Venad kingdom was displaced by a nair related dyanasty from Kolatunad or Kolathiri or Chirakkal in the Northern Kerala when two princesses from Kolathiri Nadu were adopted and Matriarchy or Marumakkathayam a Nair custom was adopted.Nairs might descend from the Scythians who invaded India before two thousand years and Nagas from North India(ahichatra in Uttar pradesh and Newars from nepal)who invaded the Kerala around 800 ad during the repeated attacks by the Karnatakas Rashtrakudas. Before 800 ad the Nairs were residents of Karnataka. Nagas were the worst enemies of Dravidians. But even after 1314 ad still the kings were not Nairs but Ays and Cheras. But Nairs started mixing with the ancient dynasties and formed the armies while gradually replacing the Nadar related Villavar tribe of Kerala. Soon the Villavars and Vanavars from which the Chera kings descended disappeared. From 1314 to 1530 the Venad kings occupied the ancient Pandyan capital of Nadars,the Tenkasippatinam.Some Venad kings had their capital at Cheranmadevi and Kallidaikurichi while the Royal house of Venad kings was situated at Kalakkad(Mulli Nadu/Desingha Nadu). Though a Pandiyan King called Vallabhan from the old Nadar dynasty regained Tenkasi from the Venad kings at 1530 ad,the Naicker invasion in 1550 destroyed all the traces of Pandiyan kingdom.The decline of the people of Pandyan and Nadar descent in kerala as well as Tamil Nadu started with this period. After 1550s all the Pandiyan principalities inside were occupied by Nairs.Though many Martially trained Nadar families still served the Venad kings as warriors. Valiathampi Kunjuthampi Kadaippadal written during 1700s during Marthanda Varmas period mentions many Nadar families served both Marthanda Varma and his opponents as warriors and protectors along with Kurups and Nairs. But after 1750s Nairs oppressed Nadars and tried to enslave them.From 1800 to 1860 period Nadars revolted against Travancore kingdom. Nadars rights for land ownership dresscode,buildings were restored when Travancore kings under pressure from the British residents passed laws in 1830s and 1860s. From 1750s to 1800s Nadars were oppressed by Nairs. When British rule was established in the 1800s and strong British residents like Col.Monroe(1816)started ruling Nadars started recovering again. Meenas (talk) 14:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The Nadars of Kerala
The Nadars of Kerala had the titles Nadalvar(rulers),Nattar(lords), Asans(teachers ),Nadappanickar(Masters of Martial arts), Panikkars and Channars in the ancient Pandiyan period. The Channars probably joined the Ezhava community in the later periods. Alummottil Channar are a famous martial art family of kerala near Alappey.

Naicker invasion
During the Vijaya Nagara Naickar period an elite Nadar lords called Vellai Nadars were hanged at Palayamkottai. Allegedly 500 gallows (thooku marams)were planted between Thirunelveli and Palayamkottai area. For about 50 yrs Nadars were hanged publicly while a few Nadars were given Jamindhari and Tax collector jobs by the Naickers.Some of the local communities opposed to Nadars joined the Telugu Naickers. Many Nadars escaped to Kerala during this period.Some like Vallikada Panikkars converted to Christianity.

Meenas (talk) 14:23, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The degradation of Nadars
The Pandiyan kingdom was replaced by Chola princes around 1000 ad. This split the Pandyan dynasty into two. The original Pandyan dynasty was pushed to south. Though they might had resurgence in the 1200s, soon the Muslim invasions in 1305 decreased the Pandiyan power. Some Nadars who converted to Islam are still having Nadar as their surname. The muslims with Nadar surnames are in the Mandya and Kanakpura area of Karnataka. The Naicker invasion in 1550s, made the Nadars landless and outlawed. Nadars were not let in their own temples built by their Pandyan ancestors. Some Nadars escaped to Kerala. At Kerala Nairs had occupied the former Chera Kingodm. The Nadars were forced to occupy a lower position after 1300s. It became worse after Marthanda Varma period in 1730s. Nadar women who used to cover their breasts and used to wear a cloth over the shoulders were not allowed to do so.They were not allowed to wear gold, possess more than 10 acres of land and not allowed to build two storey buildings. Meenas (talk) 14:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

People should learn to go through the appropriate proofs b4 blabbering
I wish to know the faulty part of this article. Ur theory is baseless. More ever we hav also asked the readers to refer '''books written by foreign authors about this caste.

Politition names missed in the list N Periyasamy Ex MLA Getha Jeevan Minister for Animal husbandary —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.79.241 (talk) 16:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Nadars should reject the books written by foreign authors
The foreign authors especially Americans are brought by the missionary organizations. The Foreign researchers especially Americans draw their information from the foreign blooded christian community of India of the west coast.The other source they rely on is the British Archives.The Americans come to India with preformed idea think they know Indias past and present after staying in India barely few months. Many of the derogatory statements by the foreign researchers of Nadar community in the past.Without proper knowledge of all the Dravidian languages and culture the American researchers have been insulting the Nadar community which descend from the Pandyan dynasty which may be as ancient as Mesopotomian culture or more. Robert L Hardgrave branded Nadars as an Indian lowcaste. Dennis Templeman Eliza F Kent s recent book about the Conversion of Nadars in the 19 th century to Christianity is outrageous.With poor understanding about Dravidians in general and the Pandyan Kingdom she thinks converting to Christianity may actually eleveate ones status in India. nadarhistory (talk) 15:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

A problem out of nowhere
Books like Ancient Tamil Monarchy, Journal of the Epigraphical Society of India, Vol 26, Mysore, 2000, tell us a great deal about the ancient Nadars and their relationship with the ancient pandyas. They were a royal-race at ancient times but were subjugated and forced out of power by the early Nayak rulers of Tamil-Nadu. Most of the Nadars at that priod were treated like slaves(nadars who were known as shanans and did toddy-tapping) and some nadars(known as nadans who remained wealthy) ,who fortunately did'nt lose all their wealth, served the Nayak kings to collect taxes. At the beginning of the 19th century, the nadars(rich and poor) decided to fight back inorder to regain their lost status. And eventually they succeeded. Though their success triggered great jealousy into their rival castes, the rise of the nadars was an inevitable movement.Their rival castes still are creating an issue that the nadars are of a low-caste despite their high status in the society today. I believe all this problem started because of mr. pandiyan who approached the people who were against this article in a rather aggresive manner. The nadars are silent people and were never regarded as trouble attracters. The violence produced by mr. pandiyan must be the only reason behind all these problems. The site remained untroubled till now. I would be obliged if the administrators of the site would go through the proofs I have posted and keep the nadar article in wiki as it was or have it deleted permanently. We would never want our community to be disgraced like this and we really don't need an article from wiki to narrate our history.Thank you...

Proofs:

1.

2.

3.

4. The Travancore State Manual written by Nagam Aiya during the Travancore maharaja rule (during British India period )mentions the Nadars as Surya Kula Kshthriyas 'வலங்கை உய்யக்கொண்ட இரவி குல (சூரிய குல) க்ஷத்திரியர்கள்'

The Nadars were not good historians and are still not. They usually don't like attention. You can also refer books like 1. Ancient Tamil Monarchy, Journal of the Epigraphical Society of India, Vol 26, Mysore, 2000 2. M. Immanuel (2002) The Dravidian Lineages: The Nadars Through the Ages. A Socio-Historical Study. From Indus Valley Civilization to present time. Published by: Historical Research & Publications Trust, 137/H-4 Bethel Nagar, Nagercoil-629004, Tamil Nadu, India, to get a proper view of our history. There also many other books to refer which I would certainly post later with proper knowledge. Please also compare this caste article with the other tamil caste articles and check for proofs in those articles too. We feel that wiki is being partial. Nadarsagham (talk) 14:02, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Changes
I removed the list of prominent people because it is irrelevant to the history and description of the caste, it was unsourced and because the mafia/underworld section violated the WP:BLP policy. Please make a case on the talk page for its inclusion if you believe these problems can be fixed. Avruch talk 19:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

My question is
The 'prominent people' feature is there in almost all the indian caste articles. You can check it out if you want to. Why is it exclusively being excluded from this article. I don't understand why. We are not just talking about the history of this caste. We should actually look at it in an overall manner. Thank you for your reply. I am looking forward to see the site as it used to be. We ll just exclude the mafia part as per the rules. It is irrelevant and unnecessary...Nadarsagham (talk) 06:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Because this is the only article I've looked at. The fact that it hasn't been deleted somewhere else isn't an argument for its inclusion here. It simply does not belong, but if you want to include it then you should source each claim prior to its inclusion. Avruch talk 16:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

What are some of the other castes with problem pages? I'll edit those in line with policy as well. Criteria for inclusion: must be verifiable through the references listed, must not violate other content policies. Its pretty simple, and if you want to add information then you should provide references for your information (websites, public records, books, documentaries, magazines, newspapers, whatever). I've also removed your commented out warning that was clearly an attempt to control the content of the article. Review WP:OWN. Avruch talk 16:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

All the references you need can be found in the sites mentioned below this article,. I don't know where you are from. But this is Tamil-Nadu. Here caste ism still exists. Excluding well known info's from our site while not even taking a glimpse on the other caste articles included in wiki would be like insulting our community in front of the other castes. Perhaps you should also pay a visit to the other caste articles. I don't want to mention the other castes with problematic pages as it would create an serious issue here in Tamil-Nadu. But for your info, I can cinch that almost all the Indian caste articles are not with proper references. I can assure you that this article is not of any false information. The article is not at all lengthy when compared to the other articles and is quite precise.More ever giving detail for every info in this article would sound strange. For eg: We all know that Bill Clinton was an American president. It would be quite weird to append proofs to the article to show that he is indeed an American. Similarly the individuals I have mentioned in this article are full-blooded Nadars and this fact is widely known by everyone of our state. I can also assure you that this article can never be a violation. I thank you again for your time...Nadarsagham (talk) 04:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not in Tamil Nadu, nor is it intended just for people of Tamil Nadu. I'm pretty sure if you look at the Bill Clinton article, his status as a former US president is referenced. You are correct that this isn't the only caste page with problems. Accordingly, I've gone through a few others and made similar changes. Wikipedia has content policies for a reason, and all articles ought to abide by them regardless of the subject matter - no matter how obvious the truth is to you, the Wikipedia standard of inclusion is verifiability not truth. Avruch talk 13:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)