Talk:Nadar (caste)/Archive 3

POV and original research vs. scientific angle
Where is written that you can't mention the prominent individuals of a caste. Every caste article does it. Kammas, Iyers, Gounders etc.. Why not Nadars? Are you anti-Nadar? P.S I am not even Nadar? I am a Nair. But I am just looking out for my brother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.252.158 (talk) 17:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC) There is too much haggling in this article about prominence of individuals of this particular caste. In an encyclopedia, the article about a people group should be as close to the anthropological/ethnological/ethnographic point of view as possible.

Caste-promotion should be left aside. It is of no interest to the readers, and it reflects social/political agendas that are mostly POV. Signed: Shiva 122.162.165.45 (talk) 13:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The section "In the field of economics" has a lot of POV. There should be more refs and less of caste-glorification- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 22:35, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Pandyas
The mention of Pandyas in the article has been removed. The claim appears controversial and it is recommended that rfs be added. See here.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 02:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

There has never been an issue regarding the pandyan ancestry between the thevars and nadars,so far. The conflict is actually being initiated by ravichandran entirely! The edit of ravichandran is just triggering unnecessary problems and misunderstanding..122.164.168.69 (talk) 15:33, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I see. I have started this process only because of some fights going on here where one person from a particular community has been calling the other "toddy-tapper", etc. I understand that these abuses have casteist connotations. Articles should not become a place for caste propaganda, definitely not a place where there should be caste-fights. Nevertheless, I insist that references be added from reliable sources for the claim. Besides, it isn't relevant at all if you mention Pandyas as an ethnic group. Since when have Pandyas been considered to be an ethnic group. The Pandya dynasty is a dynasty of kings. There is difference between a royal dynasty and an ethnic group.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 11:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

There are already enough proofs in this article and moreever we don't have to post proofs for your sake. The term you used to describe the nadars (toddy tapers) shows that you are deliberately trying to make people look down on us. The controversy you are talking abt was over a long time ago. As i said there was never a thevar behind this controversy. You made that up yourself. And the reference site sishri.org(a site based on neutrality) appended to this article clearly proves that the nadars are the descendants of the ancient pandyas and this proof has been published in several reputed tamil magazines and newpapers. The controversy regarding the ancestry of the nadars was over a long time ago and the the site was undisturbed till today. Ravichandran is without doubt committing vandalism just to prove that he is right and is deliberately trying to create a point of view that the Nadars are mere toddy tappers. The wikipedia authorities should look into this issue as soon as possible. Bake1987 (talk) 13:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Mister, I guess you can understand English. I was only explaining what is happening here- Talk:Mukkulathor/Archive 1. I've also provided the link. - The Enforcer Office of the secret service 13:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

And mister, that page wasnt obviously a part of this article and i believe it happened a long time ago!! So i suppose you can understand 'long time ago and not now.'Bake1987 (talk) 13:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * One of Wikipedia's foremost policies is assuming good faith. Now tell me, why the hell should I make this up myself? Could you explain the reason? I observe that you have been reverting my edits giving edit summaries as "vandalism", etc. I just found some articles ridden with caste-propaganda. The claim of descent from ancient Tamil emperors seems to be one of them. And I felt it to be my duty to separate fact from propaganda. It's not specific to this article alone. In fact, I've announced here about a dispute-resolution process involving multiple articles. I only provided the link to the talkpage of the other article as claims of descent from ancient kings appear to be one of them. There are plenty of people who work to clean-up Wikipedia articles and I am just one of them. If you are not comfortable with it, I'm sorry I cannot do anything about it


 * If you feel that I "made it up myself", I advice you to make a complain about my behaviour at WP:ANI- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 14:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Besides, I have never disputed that Nadars might have descended from Pandyas. Meanwhile, I had not removed the claim from the article. You can very well observe from the diffs that the claim still remains there. I was insisting on a dispute resolution as I find all caste articles being filled with such claims. And then, as I have provided those very links to you, sometimes these claims have also led to heated debates.


 * And then, do I need to repeat that Pandyas don't form an ethnic group, but a dynasty. - The Enforcer Office of the secret service 13:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Fine, we ll just leave the ethnicity aside. These debates you talk about are very old and don't happen anymore. Just by talkin abt these controversies we may trigger new problems.Bake1987 (talk) 14:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Since, you had accused me of "making it up" and questioned my honesty, I request that you start an WP:ANI over this.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 15:03, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

My job is to protect this article and maintain it according to the wikipedia standards. There was a time when this article was constantly disturbed by people(no one from the thevar community as per the history of this article). The nadars and thevars are rival castes. I don't know if you were doing your job honestly or not,but by mentioning terms like toddy tapper or thevar, you would only attract people against this article. The article did'nt have any disturbances for quite sometime and our people would want it to remain in that manner. And i was just being precautious to prevent another conflict from happening. And you mentioned that the nadars 'might' be the descendants of the pandyas and also deleted the link to the article,pandyan kingdom. Even 'might' can trigger problems here. There are many facts such as inscriptions etc to prove that the nadars are the descendants of the early pandyas like the paravas. Acts like this can only make me doubt your ways. If your intensions were true and of neutrality, i apologize for doubting your concern. My job is just to protect. I am actually a memeber of the nadar sagham(association) and come from a prominent nadar family. My family has many proofs regarding the ancestry of the nadars. I shall scan it and post it whenever i find time. Thank you. Bake1987 (talk) 13:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Firstly, no one owns Wikipedia articles. The encyclopedia has a strict policy against edit warring and discourages people from ruthlessly reverting edits. If you feel that some is editing with malicious intentions and adding unsourced ddefamatory material, you could very well make a complain at WP:AIV or request protection for this page at WP:RPP. But then, first of all, it is best to assume good faith. After all, apart from those obvious trolls, not all those who edit this page does so with malicious intentions. IP 122.*.*.* accused me of fuelling conflicts here. Now, this is very much against WP:AGF.


 * Secondly, it is not my intention to cause clashes between two communities; at the same time, it is also not my job to mediate on conflicts outside Wikipedia. Yes, we do have a policy against vandals. Now, how do we do that? Well, we do allow the introduction of all kinds of stuff regardless of whether it is in praise of or defamatory to a community. Of course, Wikipedia articles should be strictly neutral. But then, any stuff excessively praising or attacking some community should be referenced and the sources added should be based on strictly neutral, unbiased, academic research. Having said that, I don't understand how my words would be inspiring vandals. Of course, anytime you could remove any unsourced material introduced in the article by someone. Wikipedia's policies allow you to do so.


 * I tagged that particular section for POV because it contained words such as "greatest", "prominent", "influencing", etc. Of course, it is an opinion. Who might be "prominent" and "influential" to you, might not be so to someone else. See Avoid peacock terms. Hence, we use "List of so-and-so" and not "List of prominent so-and-so". And then, I was only requesting you to provide the sources at the other page so that we could analyze them. Now, how can you interpret this against someone. I don't think it would cause any harm to you if you are to comply with this suggestion. Now, I just found that caste articles apart from others in Wikiproject Tamil Nadu require cleanup and attention. And this move was only part of this cleanup drive.


 * Of course, you are welcome to edit Wikipedia regardless of whether you belong to Nadar Sangham or any other organisation. However, you are expected to maintain neutrality. Now, I'll elaborate upon Wikipedia's policies in case another situation arises. As of now, this is enough. All that I can say is that please remember that we are building an encyclopedia here and articles are to be based on academic research. For South Indian communities, I would rather recommend the 7-volume Castes and Tribes of Southern India which could be downloaded here. This book by Edgar Thurston is considered to be one of standard reference books for anthropologists interested in South India. Regards- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 04:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Sure...Bake1987 (talk) 11:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

tags
Needless to explain, the article is written with the help of propaganda websites, uses plenty of weasel words to embellish this caste in a way not supported by reliable third party sources. please do not remove the tags without significantly addressing these issues. -- Docku:  What's up?  03:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Docku and another user(i don't want to mention his name) are the only two who are concerned about the history of the nadars. This is without doubt vandalism! The info in the link here was published in several reputed tamil magazines and it also reveals a court case won by the nadars regarding this issue. More importantly this article is from the south indian history research institute. Enough said,i suppose. Stop aggravating the reputation of the nadars and their ancestry. Wikipedia should really look into this. Thank you. Bake1987 (talk) 16:35, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Is this what you are talking about? In that case, Aiyasamy Dikshithar of the Pasur Mutt (Salem district) appeared in the court and testified that the Nadars belonged to the Pandiya kula Kshatriya lineage. sorry, that is not enough to prove that "The Nadars are the heirs of the fallen ancient pandyas. Considered to be a proud, ancient warrior caste and the initial rulers of the ancient Pandiya Nadu (Pandyan Kingdom)". Please find another source to prove this point or just delete until you find one. -- Docku:   What's up?  17:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

"The decree was favorable to the nadars". I don't know y you excluded this part. But that means this claim by the nadars won the court's judgment; which means this is a fact. Are you trying to say that the judgement of a court is false and not appropriate. Sheer vandalism. Ofcourse deccan chronicle can't write a whole page about what happen inside the court because it's not a daily written by a nadar!! What are you trying to do here?? What proof do you want?? You are intensionally aggravating the reputation of our caste by playing with it. Wikipedia should either lock this article for the time being or delete it. People like docku are deliberately trying to spoil our reputation. Thank you.Bake1987 (talk) 18:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * A court ruling on whether a caste in South India are heirs to Pandya kings who ruled Tamil Nadu some thousands of years before. are you kidding me? First of all, who gave court the right to decide that nadars are heirs to Pandyas? Based on what evidences did the court decide?? come on... -- Docku:  What's up?  18:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * We cannot state that Nadars are heirs to the ancient Pandyas based on a court ruling. The judge, who has passed the judgement, is not a professional historian. We rely on published sources for verification and in this case, the source only says that Aiyasami Dikshitar of Pasu mutt argued in favour of Nadars which resulted in a judgement passed in favour of the community. I either suggest that reliable published sources be added or the sentence be reworded appropriately. In this case, the newspaper article only speaks of a court ruling. The sentence could be modified to mention that it is a court ruling in support of a claim and cannot be used to make a conclusive statement on this claim. - The Enforcer Office of the secret service  19:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Additionally, please keep in mind that Wikipedia is uncensored. I guess you might have heard about the Prophet Muhammad pictures controversy. So, it is not about what you like to see or what you don't like to see. - The Enforcer Office of the secret service 19:31, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I am restoring the tags placed on the article by Docku. Please do not remove the tags without sufficient discussion on the talk page and until either there is consensus to do so or until the dispute is resolved (see dispute resolution for pathways for dispute resolution). Also, note that while the presence of the tags does not necessarily mean that the article violates WP:NPOV or other policies, it does mean that information on the page should be better sourced and that material that is not reliably sourced may be removed (please see WP:V for the policy statement about required sourcing, and WP:RS for guidelines on what constitutes a reliable source). It is also better to directly address the merits of the objections to material in the article than to attack the motives of the other editor involved. Regards. --RegentsPark (Maida Hill Tunnel) 18:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

(Addendum) I've left the descent edit in to give the editor time to find a reliable source for the claim. --RegentsPark (Maida Hill Tunnel) 18:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Very well. If the standards and rules of wikipedia are so precise,why are the rules of wikipedia only applicable to this article alone and not to the other articles about the other tamil castes. If wikipedia follows it's rules for this article alone, it can only mean that some users in wiki are trying to practice superiority. Very well. I shall take this issue to the tamil nadu police and see that this article is deleted for good. And ofcourse find out the real identity of people like docku who have consistently disturbed the reputation of the nadars. This shall be my last edit. Wikipedia is not fair and definitely not made by common people. Do as you wish..Bake1987 (talk) 20:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Threats to find the 'real identity' of editors are not taken lightly on wikipedia and I suggest you withdraw that comment. As for the other Tamil castes, anyone, including yourself, is free to challenge material included in those articles. Other stuff exists does not mean that the policies and guidelines are no longer applicable for any one article. This is a volunteer endeavor after all. --RegentsPark (Maida Hill Tunnel) 21:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * apears to be a sock of . -- Docku:  What's up?  13:21, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This is quite unusual. I ve been watching this article for quite sometime. I am a nadar myself. This claim regarding the ancestry of the nadars is becoming quite a conflict. The article is frequently bothered and often considered controversial. But I am also amazed that articles about castes like paravar,mukulathore,mudhaliar,paraiyar,vanniyar etc are with very little references and remain unaltered. To be even more precise they don't have any references at all. I ve never seen a neutrality disputed or weasel whatever tags in these articles and i don't see any of the editors who frequently edit the nadar article there either. These articles even have false statements. My point is that a new user or someone who edits a specific article frequently can't do the correction part for the articles i ve mentioned, as it would eventually result in a conflict between the nadars and other tamil castes due to this problem. I recommend that they should be edited by a experienced editor. Affecting one caste article will affect other caste articles too. If the articles i ve mentioned remain as they are, i can only say that wikipedia is being partial because of some users. I hope wikipedia comes up with a wise solution for this problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.193.166.26 (talk) 13:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you cared to visit the articles of other communities? Do have a look at Mukkulathor, Vanniyar and Paravas and you will find that all of them have tags. In my opinion, User:Bake1987's habit of making personal attacks or threats aren't the slightest bit beneficial. I started an unofficial dispute resolution process and he called me anti-Nadar, casteist, etc. This is an article in an encyclopedia which does not belong to any community. So talks of protecting this are futile. I've called for an RFC. Let's hope things get resolved.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service  17:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Legal threats such as I shall take this issue to the tamil nadu police and see that this article is deleted for good. And ofcourse find out the real identity of people like docku who have consistently disturbed the reputation of the nadars by User:Bake1987 and apparent socking as evidenced by here and here should be enough for a block and semi-protection of this page. -- Docku:  What's up?  17:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I'm traveling in India with very slow internet connections but let me know what you think of the latest edits by IP 122.etc. If they are kosher, good. Otherwise, let me know and I'll revert and semi-protect the page. --RegentsPark (Maida Hill Tunnel) 17:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It is hard to determine 1) if these additional books cited by the IP are reliable 2) if they support the claim at all. I dont have access to any of these books and neither can i find them online. May be Ravichandar can help determine that. -- Docku:  What's up?  18:29, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He! He! I am not an expert with regard to this. Maybe a search in "Google Books" would help. In most Google Books doesn't publisher propaganda pamphlets or self-publihed works. There are exceptions, too, but those in Google Books are fairly reliable.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 01:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

RfC:Descent of Nadars from Pandyas
It is written in the article Nadar that Nadars of Tamil Nadu have descended from the ancient Pandyas. However, User:Docku feels that the references are not reliable and had tagged the article. But these tags have been repeatedly removed by a particular user who is also making accusations of casteism.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 17:05, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Section break
We have posted the required references links(books). And if this controversy is still carried out by docku and enforcer. It is pretty obvious that their trying to practice superiority here. The neutrality tag and weasel tag was never posted to the mentioned articles.Noone is talking about the references which was posted recently. Looks like docku and ravichandran are taking revenge. I don't think wiki is about what docku thinks. The books are reliable. Just because you can't go to the library nearby,doesn't mean that unreliable. The fact is you don't care a damn. Moreevr i think thery are in google books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.104.66 (talk) 03:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Well I found the first two books in google books. I heard about this fight from orkut. I just did cut and paste and there they are. I don't why they seem invisible to some. Well they look like good books to me. The other three books by sishri etc and i ll try finding them in the library. This whole fight is about a baku who calls himself bake and two editors. I don't think this has anything do with the article. Why worry about a perfectly anonymous fool who claims to put wikipedia behind bars, I wonder? If this is a fight between you 3 go to playground and sort it out. Why bother orkut and wikipedia. Anyone with exp? now is the time to step in.122.164.188.8 (talk) 11:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * just because the books are listed in google books dont make them reliable. I could write a biography about myself and manage to list it in google books. Will u use that book to write my biography? -- Docku:  What's up?  15:14, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There isn't any fight here and nor do we intend to take any revenge or anything of that sort. However, User:Bake1987 was reluctant to answer amd was repeatedly reverting good-fath tagging as vandalism. So, we've requested third-party mediation upon this.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 01:49, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

My question wasn't answered properly.There are tags in the other articles also to indicate the lack of refs.But the claims in these article remain undeleted.This is not so in the nadar article.The claims were deleted completely from the page as if they are all not true.Perhaps someone besides these three should bring this to a conclusion.The claim that the nadars are the heirs of the ancient pandyas is also quite common.For instance,the nadars use the fish emblem very usually as their symbol.A wellknown fact.Wonder why docku and enforcer are very offensive about this.Not so neutral to me.This is obviously a fight bt users. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.193.168.51 (talk) 07:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The claims have not been removed. Please have a look here. - The Enforcer Office of the secret service 08:25, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Mr.Bake1987 and friends, I hope you guys know that legend and History are different things... -- Docku:  What's up?  14:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If you guys have problem with other caste articles, raise the issue there. Everyone has the right to edit any article and you are welcome to go ahead and delete unsubstantiated claims in any article. Please be adviced that nobody owns any article including this one. -- Docku:  What's up?  14:58, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Also People are over concerned about bake.I don't think it is a sin to protect.Wiki should ont be just favourable to docku or enforcer.It should also be favourable to the nadars.Or else you can't call it neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.193.165.77 (talk) 15:01, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What?? you guys have no clue what this wikipedia project is all about? you guys dont even seem to know the difference between articles and users. No one writes articles favourable to others. It is neither newspaper nor blog. did you atleast read what is encyclopedia, legend, history and WP:Ownership??? -- Docku:  What's up?  15:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Hope you know the diff between hypothesis and fact. Bake and friends?? This guy did't even go through the posted and is always talking as if he is very sure of himself just by going through 2 books written by irrelevant people. And the way he expresses his views shows his arrogance. The claims were deleted by docku. Refer the history of the page. If we delete claims of other castes it will only cause problem. Rules of caste ism are different. These deletions should be done by a neutral person. That is by people unlike you.

Comments by Abecedare (talk)
The current statement in the article and the appended references are: The Nadars are the heirs of the fallen ancient pandyas. Considered to be a proud, ancient warrior caste and the initial rulers of the ancient Pandiya Nadu (Pandyan Kingdom).
 * History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 Page 277 By K. Rajayyan
 * Anatomy of a folklore, ottan kathai By M. Immanuel
 * Manadu(Tamil) Page 6 By Tacaratan (Madras, India)
 * Natar varalaru(Tamil) By Mocacu Ponnaiya
 * article in The Hindu
 * www.sishri.org

Can someone provide the complete bibliographical data for the first four references (publishers, isbns if available, etc) and relevant quotes (in Tamil/English) ? That will allow us to judge if the article statement is well-supported and refine its phrasing. (I have read the Hindu article, while SISHRI is an unaccredited "private research institution" with a POV, and its website should be treated as a self-published source, i.e., usable only on an article about the organization itself.) Note: Most of the references in the article are community websites etc with no known process for editorial oversight or fact-checking. These are clearly not reliable sources for wikipedia and should be removed. Sources like the books listed in the Further Reading section should be used to rewerite/reference the article. Statements that are not currently supported by citations to reliable sources should be marked up with tag, and later removed if no sources are forthcoming. Abecedare (talk) 01:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The article in The Hindu could be considered reliable. But it does not claim that Nadars have descended from Pandyas. I was able to find some sources on the net. Let me present them here.- The Enforcer Office of the secret service 03:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Rajayyan's book is here, and here lies Anatomy of Folklore- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 03:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Do you, or anyone else, have access to these books, so that we can look for the relevant quotes ? It would be a good idea to look at these and other detailed studies of the community, rather than relying on random websites, or even newspaper quotes.
 * Converting women by Eliza Kent, cites Robert Hardgrave's The Nadars of Tamilnad to say that Nadars (Shanars) started claiming to be Kshatriyas and descendants of Pandya kings in the 19th/20th century, with the aim of improving their social status. That book too may be worth looking at, besides Robert Caldwell's writings on the ethnography of the community and the conversions to Christianity. Anyone have access to these books ? Abecedare (talk) 03:45, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have Robert Caldwell's book in my possession, but I strongly feel that he was, to some extent, biased. For the same reason, I haven't suggested Edgar Thurston's Castes and Tribes of Southern India. These books seem to be slightly tinged with bias typical of the colonial mentality of those times- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 05:00, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * These books suggests political reasons for these claims.- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service  03:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 By K. Rajayyan Published by Raj Publishers, 1982 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Sep 30, 2008 432 pages

Anatomy of a folklore, ottan kathai: a deified spy and his king Viira Martanda Varma By M. Immanuel Edition: illustrated Published by Historical Research & Publications Trust, 2005 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Oct 7, 2008 ISBN 8190150618, 9788190150613 133 pages —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.172.164 (talk) 03:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks IP! Now we have the complete bibliographical information for at least all the English sources. The next step would be to collect relevant quotes from these works. I can get the Rajayyan and Hardgrave books by next week. If somebody can get hold of them earlier, feel free to add information from them here. Of course, other (reliable) references are welcome too. Abecedare (talk) 03:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Based on the accessible sources, I would suggest the following neutral rewording:


 * Still, I wish to wait until you are able to get hold of the other sources. - The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 04:51, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I would prefer to look through what the authoritative sources have to say on the subject, before beginning the discussion on article wording. Else, I'm afraid we may be distracted by heated discussions on the exact wording, without having access to the complete information. The research should take a week or so (to get hold of the books), and in the meantime the article tags inform the reader that parts of the article are unreliable. Any objections to this suggestion ?
 * Incidentally, which sources (besides Eliza Kent's book) is the above paragraph, especially the second sentence, based on? Can you add quotes from the sources you used somewhere below on the talkpage ? Abecedare (talk) 05:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * [This is my source:

- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 05:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting, but also somewhat confusing. The "Korkai, ...in fact Nadar" sentence seems to give some credence to the theory that some Pandyan rulers were Nadar, while the last sentence seem to deem that improbable. Possibly I am missing some nuance here, and will understand it better once I have read up more about the Pandyan and Nadar history. Abecedare (talk) 03:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, the Nadar Mahajan Sangham vaguely claims that the Nadars have descended from the early as well as the late Pandyas. The early and later Pandyas were probably two different dynasties which called themselves Pandyas. While the early Pandyas ruled from 200BC to 200AD, the Later Pandyas ruled in the 13th and 14th centuries AD. Now, though both these dynasties claim to belong to the same family, this claim is somewhat dubious. Now, in this book, Rajni Kothari says that though there is the possibility that the Nadars might be related to the Early Pandyas there is little evidence that they had anything to do with the Later Pandyas- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 05:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That clears up my confusion regarding the quote! Abecedare (talk) 05:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Abecedare for the comments. I dont have access to any of the books. If the anonymous users (IPs) have access, they can go ahead and cite the page number and exact quote. and if any of these authors claim Nadars, Pallar, Thevars or any other castes are descendants of Pandyas, I would like to know the methodology (other than speculation) used by them to draw these conclusions? -- Docku:   What's up?  04:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * wonder if anyone has access to this book by Dennis Templeman? -- Docku:  What's up?  17:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Update: I have received the Rajayyan and Hardgrave books, but haven't got the time to look through them yet. Plan to do so this weekend and add relevant bits here. I have library access to the Templeman book, but will refrain from getting it for now - don't wish to extend my pile of unread books further :) Abecedare (talk) 18:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

A question
I have a small issue that needs clarification. I find that Thevars and Pallars, apart from a number of other communities are claiming Pandya ancestry. Could those who support the claim that Nadars have descended from the Pandyas explain this?- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 03:25, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

History of Tamil Nadu, 1565-1982 By K. Rajayyan Published by Raj Publishers, 1982 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Sep 30, 2008 432 pages

Anatomy of a folklore, ottan kathai: a deified spy and his king Viira Martanda Varma By M. Immanuel Edition: illustrated Published by Historical Research & Publications Trust, 2005 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Oct 7, 2008 ISBN 8190150618, 9788190150613 133 pages

The thevars and pallars are also the descendants of the early pandyas. The paravas and nadars too. These people are predominant in the southern districts of tamilnadu which used to be a territory ruled by the pandyas. Especially the nadars and thevas. The book by Eliza and by many british authors state that the nadars claimed themselves to be the heirs of the pandya rulers to improve their status. However this claim was strongly denied by the nadar and they counterattacked the british historians like caldwell and hardgrave with full proof claims. I don't know where i read this from, but i ll find it and post the necessary proofs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.172.164 (talk) 04:04, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * IP, yes it would be good to have sources that express the Nadar community's point-of-view too. If you can locate related reliable sources (published books, academic articles etc) please add information about them and from them here. As per wikipedia policies, we don't have to decide which of the views about the origins of the community are "correct" or "true". Only inform the reader of the notable published views. Lets also remember that there are no emergencies on wikipedia, so we can take the next week or so to visit our libraries and gather our sources. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 04:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hullo, when you explain things please make it clear. Friends, if you are expressing something from the Nadar point-of-view you ought to explain that it is the view held by Nadars. You cannot make conclusive statements over it, that too, if there has been some dissent expressed over it. Now, the article says that the Nadars are the heirs to the age-old Pandyas. Since there has been considerable opposition to this claim you cannot introduce it in the article as if it is a widely accepted view.- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 10:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch for the time,Mr.Abecedare. We were actually waiting for someone like you. The book by immanuel is a good book according to the nadar point of view. There are many books which goes according to the nadar pt of view. Most of the books written by british people were actually based on Hardgrave and Calwell's opinion. But these claims were strongly denied by the nadars. Since it's you, I ll let you know something. As far as i know, (i havent read the book by immanuel, just heard of it), ancient incriptions say that there were kings with titles like nadar and thevar. These titles were considered to be their surname. But as far as I know there are no concrete solid evidences that these kings were the ancestors of the nadars and thevars of today. The history of this article used to begin with the sentence 'It is believed that the nadars are heirs of the ancient pandyas'. I don't know who changed the sentence into 'The nadars are heirs of the ancient pandyas. Books like immanuel etc state that the nadars are the heirs of the pandyas and books like caldwell state ,with reference to the status of the nadars in the 18th and 19th century, that the nadars adopted a method called sankritisation to enhance their status. The problem is you can't assert they are both not true. And there are many books which are favorable to both of these claims. Moreever people like caldwell were abhored by the nadars. I ll ask my uncle for the book by immanuel. Thanks for your intervention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.172.164 (talk) 06:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * As a general rule, 'descendants of' rather than 'heirs of' is better phrasing. Something like 'The Nadars are thought to be descendants of the ancient pandaya kings', properly sourced, would be fine in the article. --RegentsPark (Maida Hill Tunnel) 12:14, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have given an appropriate suggestion in the previous section.- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 12:49, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * IP, unfortunately, I don't have access to the Immanuel book through my library, so it would be good if you could get it from your uncle. You are right, that Caldwell's work has to be used with caution; it is of great historical importance and should be mentioned as such in the article, but it also represents the view of a 19th century Christian missionary. The Hardgrave thesis/book, on the other hand, seem to be a more recent and scholarly study and I'll add notes from it here once I have received and read through it. Given all the sources we have located, we should have enough material for a section or two explaining the history and transformation of the Nadar community. Abecedare (talk) 03:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Other issues
The sections "In the field of economics" and "Influencing personalities" have very few inline citations and are heavily laden with POV. I suggest that the whole section "Influencing personalities" be converted to a list and moved to List of Nadars and linked from this page. - The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 05:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

The brief biographies of WPA Soundarapandian Nadar and others could be moved to individual articles- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 05:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Good idea. -- Docku:  What's up?  15:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree that a separate list (with proper citations) is a good idea; individual articles can be created too, as long as the subjects meet the notability requirements. Abecedare (talk) 03:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I had early initiated this WP:RFC for the benefit of this article. Owing to persistent harrasment from a user who has been assigning motives to my starting this RFC, I am withdrawing this RFC. Henceforth, it is upto you to terminate or continue this process. However, I shall not participate in this process nor will I endorse it. I shall also henceforth not bother about caste-articles looking like public toilet. If at all you feel I was being biased, I am sorry about it.- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 03:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have made the list and removed all POV-laden sentences. made some individual articles. I dont think making a new List of Nadars is necessary right now. This website lists a lot of people who are nadars. It is definitely a propaganda website, and lacks reliability. Nevertheless, i would wonder how and why they would want to lie about living people. Of these, I find Manuel Aaron, David Davidar, Rajagopal of Saravana Bhavan, Chandra Mohan of Arun Icecreams, Selvaraj of Saravan Stores quite notable. What about Harris Jayaraj? his wikipedia page claims so. I will go ahead and add these names, if there is no objection. of course, it can be moved into a separate article if and when the number swells. -- Docku:  What's up?  21:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Harris is a nadar. . I hope there are also other editors paying attention to your edits. Because this article should'nt be just according to your pt of view. No offence. And for your info, kuttyjapan.com and nadar sagham.com have nothing to do with the real nadar association. The Nadar Mahajana sagham.org is the only official site hosted by the nadar association. The rest are actually hosted by some nadar. Please remove the official website tag from these links. Nice work. Thanks.[Special:Contributions/122.164.175.84|122.164.175.84]] (talk) 06:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I would like to know W. P. A. Soundarapandian Nadar's full name and the date of his death. I could not find these on the web- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 20:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok. I ll get back to u after getting the info. Thanks122.164.29.166 (talk) 17:50, 2 April 2009 (UTC)


 * whether all these above IPs are just one person or more than one, I would recommend getting an account(s). It doesnt feel comfortable not knowing. -- Docku:  What's up?  18:35, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

W.P.A.Soundrapandiyan Nadar- Born:15/9/1893 Died:22/2/1953 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.206.216 (talk) 00:14, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * do you have a reference for that? By the way, why dont you please get an account? -- Docku:  What's up?  00:17, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot, anon. I had added the date based on this news item. However, now, it seems he was born in mid-September and not the end. Yeah, anon, it would be nice if you could create an account. And also, if you contribute on a variety of articles and not restrict yourself to articles pertaining to one particular community. We don't insist anyhow.- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 13:22, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Anon, Please mention your source for date of birth and death here. Also, it would be great if you could expand his initials W. P. A. Thanks- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 13:26, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

My name is Vijay. Well I got this info from the local nadar sagham. They are valid. Perhaps you should append a citation tag to it for the time being. Yes I can also help the other caste articles out. I ll just post you the appropriate links and let you do the editing. I don't think I can be a neutral. I am a little busy right now. I ll post them in a week's time. ThanksVijaypandiyan (talk) 02:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC) The new article upper cloth can be a little more neutral. Perhaps we should just leave out the 'breast baring part out' or mention it in a different manner. The conflict between the nairs and nadars part in the article, makes the nairs of travancore seem more superior to the nadars. No offence. Please look into this issue. The article on Soundrapandian was perfectly neutral. Good job. Vijaypandiyan (talk) 03:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC) I have made some corrections in the article upper cloth. See if they are appropriate, Ravi.Vijaypandiyan (talk) 03:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

For a second, I thought that people like docku were actually helping to make the article a little according to the pt of view of the nadars. But gradually he is going back to the square one of the arguement. This is scary indeed. Arent there anyother editors around?? Docku is without doubt a malayalee and his edits are very not according to the faith of the nadars?? His article upper cloth was shocking to read. I can't believe. He also says that this happened to the tamil nadars as well(tall tale). But this happened to a very,tiny section of nadars who went to kerela due to their poverty. Without doubt this is caste discrimination. The rumours about him is indeed right. Please someone look into this controversy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijaypandiyan (talk • contribs) 16:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Kamudi temple case
This looks like an interesting case which can be mentioned in some detail in the article. page 36-49. -- Docku:  What's up?  15:31, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. I ll come back to you soon.122.164.172.164 (talk) 02:41, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Nice find, Docku! This and the other books mentioned above should really allow us to transform the article soon. Abecedare (talk) 03:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Having earned the trust of the anonymous users and I, having no reason to question your competence or neutrality given your past contributions, am willing to accept reasonable compromise corrections and phrases proposed by you. Please take your time and I will definitely chime in my suggestions in between. Thanks for helping us out one more time. -- Docku:  What's up?  04:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There were many such incidents like the Kamudi temple case. I doubt whether mentioning each and every one would be within the scope of this article. We could instead create a section on the Anti-Shanar riots of 1899, probably even a separate article on the same. Neutrality would be difficult to maintain but it is definitely an important incident in Nadar history- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 04:55, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Images in the infobox
Though the user claims the copyright for the images in the infobox, I seriously doubt whether he does own them. Bake1987 claims that he owns the copyright for the images because he had scanned and uploaded them, but the uploader does not say anything about whether he owns the copyright for the images uploaded by him. Were the photographs taken by the uploader? Does he have the required copyrights for commercial use of these images? What is the rationale for his claim of copyright. The text on the images are completely silent about all these.- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 06:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The book by docku contains valuable informations. But I think they are already in this article. This Anti-Shanar seems interesting, but writing things about a conflict between the maravars and nadars may not be a easy task and avoiding such unwanted conflicts is the best thing to do. Perhaps we should post an external link or something regarding this. And about the quotes in the book by Rajayyan. I have a book known as Nadar varalaru(History of nadars). It is a book published by the nadar mahajana sagham. The book contains quotations taken from other books regarding the nadars and I got the info about Rajayyan's book from it. It quotes that "the Nadars are strongly believed to be the one of the pandyan houses that ruled over the Madurai country until the muslim invasion An inscription at kalladaikurichi stands as its testimony". The nadar varalaru is a tamil book and I am actually translating it from Tamil. These are the lines from Rajayyan's book. Mr.Regent said that it would be fine to include the line the nadars are believed to be..the ancient pandyas with app refs. I thank everyone for understanding our point of view. I have placed an order for the book by immanuel and most probably i ll be getting it in a weeks time. Well i think we can use the book as a reference regarding the varma kalai topic. And regarding the pandyan ancestry of the thevars and pallars. I don't know much about the ancestry of the pallars but i have read an article from tamilnation.org which states that the pallars are the descendants of the pandyas. But I am quite sure that the paravas and maravas are the descendants of the pandyas. The history of any tamil caste is without evidence. For example, the term shanan did'nt come into existence till the 15th century as per the tamil history. The nadars are the 3rd largest caste in tamil nadu and the 2nd largest caste who speak only tamil. They are also one of the most predominant castes in the southern districts of tamil nadu which used to be pandya nadu. But history has no trace of such a large race being in pandya nadu. It has info about the maravas and paravas etc. But the term shanar was never mentioned. The history of most of the tamil castes are usually oral history. They have no evidences. The reason why I didnt want people to use books based on hardgrave is because these books very easily claim that the history of any tamil caste was a mere pretension to improve their status. These so called pretensions is the only history we can present. This is not a case which is meant exclusively for the nadars but also for some other tamil castes. I hope this point is well understood by our editors. The nadars might have had something to do with the late pandyas(perhaps till the nayak invasion). Because history was pretty thorough after the 15 th century and history says that many native kings were uprooted during the nayak invasion. I think I read this in the wiki article about the pandyan kingdom. I ll be coming back after I get the book by immanuel. Thanks again for understanding our point of view.122.164.154.93 (talk) 13:38, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The fact that creating such an article is going to create communal tensions is no reason why such an article should not be created. And, by the way, we have articles on Insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir, Kashmir conflict, Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. I don't think the article on Anti-Shanar riots is going to create more controversies than either of these. To simplify, it isn't a big deal for Wikipedia. Yeah, there is a possibility that Hardgrave's book could be biased; but that's no reason to replace it with a blatantly one-sided account. I have reworded the statement and presented it above. We could mention the fact that Hardgrave's views have been alleged to be biased and have been protested by Nadars, but we need sources to back the same.- The Enforcer <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">Office of the secret service 19:37, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I hope the article would turn out fine according to the pt of view of the nadars & wiki. Will be back after getting the refs. Thanks.122.164.167.26 (talk) 12:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Vijay Amritraj, Shiv Nadar, Sarath Kumar, Kamaraj images from Internet. same as in this article. i bet it is copyvio.. -- Docku:  What's up?  17:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

File:Sivanthi_adithan.jpg may be deleted
I have tagged File:Sivanthi_adithan.jpg, which is in use in this article for deletion because it does not have a copyright tag. If a copyright tag is not added within seven days the image will be deleted. -- Chris  01:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

History of Nanjil nadars
The below article is collected from various books. Please feel free to write back if any doubt arises. Get me in my blogspot nanjil.blog.com

HISTORY

The history of origin of or Villavas or Sanars or Nadars as they are popularly known is not exactly know. However glimpses of there life in southern part of Tamil nadu can be brought out from various inscriptions. Around 500ACE Valluva kings ruled northern parts of Nanjil Nadu (Eraniel – Kalkulam region). It was know as valluva nadu. There are citation poems in Purananuru by Avvaiyar (puram 137-140) praising the valluva king. The Chera Nadu was ruled by Villava kings also known as Nadars or Sanars. There symbol was Palmyra flower. Even today in Kasargode area of Kerala the toddy tapers were know as Villavas. In vikarama chola ula, OttaKKuthan refers to the chera king Kanaikkal Irumporai as Villavan or Nadar.

Life in Nanjil Nadu

The religion of these people were Jainism. Even today the remains of those glorious jain past can be very well seen in Kanyakumari Dist. Chitaral jain monuments, Nagaraja temple at Nagercoil (it was padmavathy temple then) are a few examples. In puram 74 which was written by the king Kanaikkal Irumporai, himself he tells about ending life by starvation [prayopavesa] as is known in Jainism. There was no caste influence in those period. Vegetarianism was also not practiced. Any person going to kings palace were given rice cooked with beef and palyamara juice. Also there was no evidence of child marriage in that Society. There are reference of seven stages of womanhood based on the age (Perunkathai). They are Pethai upto 13 yrs Pethumbai 13 – 16, Mankai 16 – 19 , Madanthai 19 – 25 , Arivai 25 – 30 , Terivai 25 – 30 , Perilampen above 40.

The people were well educated and there was no bar on education .Some of the eminent scholors at those time were Ilango Adikal, Kambar to name a few. There are some unconfirmed study about Nanjil Valluvar and Tiruvalluvar.

Christanity in Nanjil Nadu The account of Cosmas, a Nestorian from Alexandria who traveled along the coast of Present Kerala about 525 ACE gives vivid description of Christian settlements. Legend has it that Thomas of Cana along with a band of Syrian merchants arrived here at !st ACE, Constructed Seven churches along the coast and was killed in Mylapore. The Life history of Thomas of Cana is given separetly.He visited Nanjil Nadu in 52ACE and constructed a church in Tiruvathicode in the name of Mother Mary. Today the Church at Tiruvathicode is the oldest standing church in the world.

Fall of the Kingdom.

By the 7th century ACE Varnasaram took deep root in South India. The Manu was supported by many powerful kings of Chola and Pandaya Kingdoms. The powerful, Educated were voluntarily given Brahmin and Sathariaya status. It was an irony that from the same tribe some were taken into upper caste and left out people driven to lower caste. Further there was a systematic destruction of all writings pertaining to other religion and anything that stood against Varnasarama. Even the sangam was called for the destruction of all writings of other religion by fire. It is an irony that famous books like Vajra Suchi, Buddhacharita were all destroyed and today we get only the Chinese translations done at 400ACE.

By 1000 ACE King Raja Raja Chola Completely conqured Talakkulam, Eraniel, Kalkulam, Vilavamcode and marched into Kollam and destroyed 2nd Chera Empire. Nambudiris became the most powerful and the Villavas were driven out from corridors of power.

By 14th Century AY dynasty came into power with the backing of Nambudiris. In Tolkappiyam it was stated that AY’s came from Dwaraka along with Sage Agastya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arsmin (talk • contribs) 07:02, 5 June 2009 (UTC) The term 'coercion' (from the history section) must be immediately removed by the wiki people. I don't understand how wiki can be responsible to post somethinf that inaccurate!!! Undo that insane edit as soon possible. This was most probably edited by a brah--min. 59.96.23.55 (talk) 15:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Coercion? When the hell did this happen? How come wikipedia support such a claim. Make the page available to everyone. not just to some morons who have no idea of our history,duh.