Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive 4

Removed copyvio from http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:i0_LfS0JdB4J:www.iwpr.net/galleries/yezidi/ytext.html+%22But+the+Armenian+education+ministry+has+promised+that+there+will+soon+be+Yezidi+text+books+and+classes+taught+in+their+language+twice+a+week.%22&hl=en

Anon edit
I stumbled across interesting information in the book that is cited on the main article page. It says that as many as 40,000 Armenians were brought into the Karabakh region. Its also claims that 75,000 Azeris were brought into the northern coastal regions of Azerbaijan which Armenians made a slight majority.
 * which book? When brought? mikka (t) 22:19, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[No Title]
'The map of the Soviet Azerbaijan, where it is indicated with green color that Armenians made the majority in regions outside of the Nagorno Karbagh is absurd and inaccurate. Kelbajar and Lachin regions of Azerbaijan, the green color indicates as being mainly Armenian populated is worng. ALmost 99 percent of the population of both these regions were Azerbaijanis, untill they were expelled by Armenian barbars, fundamentalists and fascists. Therefore, I storngly suggest the elimination of that map from the page. Sooner it is done, the accuracy of Wikipedia will be ensured. For more information about this issue, visit www.human.az &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.195.182.195 (talk &bull; contribs) 19:12, 18 December 2005.

The present is the reality.. So I agree thatr this map is correct

true facts about Karabakh from the neutral source
Sirs,

I read your debate with sad feeling. Today we witness once again how people with no historical education whatsoever attempt to argue on historical issues. Unfortunately, History is a very vulnerable subject. For the “outsiders” (under this term I mean people of academic background other than History) History may seem an easy subject, since it does not imply formulas or specific scientific rules. However, let me tell you that when a non-historian speaks (or even argues!) with the historian about his discipline, the best way for the latter to escape from the numerous and astonishing nonsenses and thereby safe the ears is just to “agree” with the other side and end the conversation.

For this reason, I will not even start the conversation with many of you, especially with Mr. Galstian and Mr. Lautreamont. Again, the reason is that you guys have absolutely no clue (sorry for the tone) about the history of the region. What you say is what you read in the articles of the same kind of “history-lovers”. You guys have never studied in the world archives, you have never used specific historical methodologies and techniques, and you simply don’t know the subject. Believe me. All you are arguing for is what you would like it to be, but not what is in reality. History is an exact subject. It always leaves evidences, which are... guess what? yes, historical sources.

It is the historical sources that provide the researchers with the information. It is the historical sources the researcher make the conclusions from. And only the researcher who uses (and knows HOW TO USE!) the historical sources can make correct conclusions.

As a person who spent all my life in doing researches on Middle East and Caucasus, as the Professor of History at Cambridge University with teaching experience at Yale, Manchester, LSE, as an absolutely impartial side, I will just brief you some facts that are indisputable and are the HISTORY.

- Armenians have not lived in Transcaucasia for the centuries. It is a myth. The first massive Armenian immigration to the Erivan, Nakhichevan and Karabakh Khanates started in 1828 and it was encouraged by the Russian Tsarist government. The Russian Ambassador to Iran, Alexander Griboedov, had described the resettlement of the Iranian Armenians in the above mentioned lands in his memoirs. Even after the first massive arrival of the Armenians to Transcaucasia, the original Muslem population (mainly Azeris) remained the majority in Erivan, Karabakh and Nakhichevan.

- There still exists the monument in Nagorno Karabakh which commemorates the arrival of the first immigrants to Nagorno Karabakh. It was erected in 1978 in Leninavan (Mardakert region of Nagorno Karabakh) to mark the 150th anniversary of the Armenian immigration. Until recently, there was a script on the monument, but after the outbreak of the conflict, Armenians had erased the script.

- All pre-1828 Christian buildings in Nagorno Karabakh are Albanian (don’t confuse the Caucasian Albanians with the European Albanians). Albanians were the only indigenous population of Nagorno Karabakh, and they were assimilated into the Azeri ethnos in the Middle Ages, long before the Armenian immigration. Therefore, only the modern Azeris can be considered to be the descendants of the Caucasian Albanians (the fact accepted by the world historical scholarship).

- Only after the Crimean War, 1853-55, when the second massive immigration of the Armenians from Turkey took place, did the Armenians outnumber the Azeris in Transcaucasia. The purpose of Russia’s promotion of the Armenian immigration was to create a Christian province in the South which was to serve as a stronghold for further Russian penetration of Iran and the Ottoman Empire.

- Armenian immigration continued in the 1890s after the disastrous rebellion of the Armenians in Anatolia in 1894-95.

- There was no so-called “Armenian genocide” in 1915. The Ottoman government ordered the resettlement (even not the deportation, since it was the resettlement within the same country) of the Armenian population from Eastern Anatolia to Syria because they started massacres of the Turks and Kurds on the eve of the Russian advance. Armenians in all 6 villayets were in minority. The goal of the Dashnaktsutsiun leaders was to provoke unrest in Anatolia, cause sympathy of the Entente and to acquire a statehood after the defeat of Turkey. More than 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were killed by the Armenian rebels in 1914-18, while around 600.000 Armenians suffered during the resettlement. “Genocide” is the state policy of extermination of the nation. There was obviously no such a policy adopted by the Ottoman government in 1915, and what it ordered was the reaction to the Armenian violence towards Turkish and Kurdish civilians.

- Stalin never “granted” Karabakh to Azerbaijan. In 1921, the decision was made to “leave” Karabakh within, and not to “transfer” to, Azerbaijan. If you look at the Protocol of the Kavbuero Meeting of 5th July, 1921, (every historian nowadays can order the document from the former Party Archive in Moscow) you will read exactly the word “leave”. So, when you “leave” something somewhere, it obviously implies that it was there before. Masterly manipulating with the words, Armenians pursue the aim to justify their territorial claims to Azerbaijan. In addition, in 1921 Stalin did not have enough power to “grant” territories or to take such kind of important decisions. He was an ordinary minister (narkom), and his power was very limited. Contemporary advocates of the Armenian Cause use Stalin’s name, known for his brutal dictatorship, to justify their territorial intentions.

- More than 400 geographical names in modern Armenia were renamed from Turkic to Armenian.

- The first violence in the 1980s took place in late 1987, when the Armenians expelled 4.000 Azeris from Kafan, Masis and Goris. Azeri refugees were the first in the conflict. They were sent to Sumgait, where only 3 months later the tragedy broke out. It is the undisputable fact that two ethnic Armenians (Grigorian and Oganov) were arrested in Sumgait for killing at least 6 Armenians. Armenians are responsible for the first violence in the conflict, which is the expulsion of the Azeris in 1987.

- The first victims in the conflict were Azeris - two guys killed by Armenians few days before the Sumgayit tragedy in Askeran.

- No single bullet had fallen on the Armenian soil since the beginning of the conflict. The war took place only on the territory of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan is the victim, Armenia is the aggressor.

These are only few facts. If you are interested in more information or if you want to read my books and articles, leave your message and address here. I will be happy to send them to you.

Regards, Dr. Steven Howletts Cambridge University &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.143.175.186 (talk &bull; contribs) 07:11, 5 January 2006.


 * Interesting that the only stuff on Google where I can find your name is on Armenia web boards. I couldn't find your name in the Cambridge websites for England AND Massachusetts... --Khoikhoi 07:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * And why would he be contributing to Wikipedia from a cable connection in New Jersey? - FrancisTyers 09:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The guy doesn't exist. Fad (ix) 18:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Fad and other Armenians in Wikipedia. The guy does exist. I copied this letter from your forum web site http://forum.hayastan.com/lofiversion/index.php/t19964.html with pleny of accusations and bad words against him. If he didn't exist why then in so many Armenian web sites he is discussed and accused. He told me in his private communication that he is afraid for his life and the life of his family. He received several indimidation calls from the Armenian terrorist organizations including ASALA which killed over 80 Turkish diplomats. So now you might know why you can't find him. He is just hiding as many American authors who know and tell the truth.[added by anon. user 64.167.141.155 on 05:48, January 11, 2006, exposed by --TigranTheGreat 11:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)]
 * Anon. user 64.167.141.155, here is what you originally wrote and later decided to delete (again apparently out of embarrassment): "I copied this letter from this web site http://forum.hayastan.com/lofiversion/index.php/t19964.html which is an armenian forum. i couldn't find the original web site where it was posted." If the original post existed you would be able to find it. The reason you can't is because the post is a hoax filled with falsifications, and most likely the author doesn't exist either. When you state that he is hiding because "ASALA has threatened him" (a non-existent organizations that has not been around for over 20 years!), you are exposing the hoax. Once again, stop posting false propaganda and stop your disruptive conduct. Your attempts to provoke will fail, and so will your access to wikipedia for clear violations of its rules .--TigranTheGreat 11:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

tigran who told you that ASALA ceased 20 years ago. Were you part of it or are you part of it that you know it? you acknoweldge that ASALA has killed over 80 Turkish diplomats. no terrorist organization, especially the armenian one has ceased ever, they just transformed themselves into fundamentalist dahsnakstyun party. You can't say that the dashnakstyun does not exist. It is indeed in power in armenia. Don't forget. The author and the articles are real. He is hiding as he is scared to death due to death messages he got from armenians after his letter. Many American hisotrians behave similarly. You might know Justin McCarty who publicly said and says that there wasn't so called 'armenian genocide' and the armenian genocide is nothing more than the propaganda and mobilization tool of armenians. He is one of those who received death threats and afer that reduced his public appearance and conferences.

The terroism is wide spread among armenians as the recent event where the armenian Vladimir Arutunyan tried to kill the Georgian and American presidents. He is now sentenced to life sentence. http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw113703930213B262