Talk:Nair/Archive 2

Removing Classification Controversy Section
About the Nambiar article. A very coincidental thing happened yesterday. I was browsing the latest issue of NSS newsletter 'Service'. There on p.36 a phot of the NSS sectretary narayana panicker laying a foundation of a school (?) in North malabar. The caption indicates among others a 'NSS Nayaka sabha member E. Karunakaran Nambiar'. I think that answers our friends recent changes in the Nambiar article.


 * Did you read carefully my last posting??? If NOT, pl do. I'd written how calling Nairs Shudras could be misleading, given the way the term Shudra is understood in rest of India, especially north. The crux of my earlier post was Why should we have a subheading 'Classification Controversy'?? Similar castes like Reddy and Marathas do not have it in their articles. Why should such a subheading be there???? Another thing . Ask a Mallu about malayalam-Malayalam dictionary and the word that comes first to his mind is Sabdatharavali. Find how I find the words: Nair- (bahuvachanam of Nayan)Keralathile malayakshatriyan Nayan-Nayakan Malayanadu-Malanadu (Kerala) Does it mean something to you??? --RAKS


 * now thats interesting..infact i myself was just, before reading ur post, wondering whether we really need a classification controversy article..o yes shudra means sumthin different in the north....true...i agree...meanwhile lets have a discussion as to whether the classification controversy part shud be removed manu


 * Manu, I think that the "Classification Controversy" class might have to be removed. First of all, the majority of the discussion on this page is around that. Secondly, it doesn't seem like a major issue. The caste system is totally different in Kerala and so probably caste doesn't even have to come into it. It seems to be causing more angst than resolving anything. But I am not sure if that is reason enough. What do you think? --Vivin Paliath ( വിവി൯ പാലിയത് ) 05:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Manu and Vivin, i am with you. Why should there be a subheading when it ought not be there, in the first place????? I hope the thing is removed in the first instance. Let's give it a decent burial -RAMS (30 August)


 * Very well, I am removing that section of the article. As far as I know, no one has really tried to "classify" Nairs according to the traditional caste system. --Vivin Paliath ( വിവി൯ പാലിയത് ) 16:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * hEY Vivin and Rams....im with u....lets get that off the page...i mean y do we need an identity in the 4 tier casts system when we know our place as warriors....just mention nairs as warriors and a martial caste...and get that classification thing off...and RAKS, yes i am from central Travancore....my tharavad is Mulavely and is located in Cheriyanadu...one of the few Subramanyam Temples of Kerala is in Cheriyanadu....- manu

Hai MANU Is Cheriyanadu near Chenganoor or Thiruvalla??? RAKS

On the question of Naga and Rakshasa
Naga and Rakshasa are two totally different terms.people can say all sorts of things.Please be factual when you post articles on wikipedia. Also Keralolpathi is something written in the 19th century and largely POV as it was never accepted.

Rajeev Rajendran Nair.

Well speaking of that, the Kerala Mahatmayam mentions tht Nairs were born to Brahmin men from Deva, Gandharva and Rakshasa women. Similarly it also says tht the aryans parasuram brought found kerala uninhabitable and hence returned...but when parasurama brought them back they found that nagas from the underworld had occupied the place...hence they say parasurama said tht in every house there woud be one corner called kavu where the nagas cud flourish, undisturbed by the aryans...and so apparently the lands were returned to the aryans and the nagas got kavus instead...Manu

Who is Aryan?

Then who according to you is Aryan?All the land in Kerala wasn't occupied by the Brahmins or Nairs.A kavu at the back of a house is a common thing in Kerala.Does this mean that all the people in Kerala are Aryan according to you? Another thing the Kerala Mahatmyam again is a recent text and could be POV AS WELL.When one goes to the inscriptions from the Chera period of Cheraman Perumal it shows the Nairs as being the landlords in several places and these are only about a thousand years old.After this period probably Sanketams came up where the Namboothiris had power..but later evn these were formed into Rajyams where the evemtual kings were all derived from Nair houses.What say you?And Deva,Gandharva,Rakshasa assembling woman from these disparate ethnic groups fro a single trip down south should be quite a problem don't you think?

Rajeev Rajendran Nair


 * Whoa!! ur talking as if i said all that....its wriiten in the Kerala Mahatmayam....whether or not it is true who know..Manu

Veenu Nairs
Hey Veenu Nairs ie Chakala, Vilakithala etc are OBC's rite? but even Kalari Kurups and Kalari Panickers are obcs....but arent they gurukulam teachers? how can they have reservations...ofcourse since obc stands for other backward classes and not castes we wud have to assume that they are in the list due to economic backwardness...


 * I've heard that in north malabar and Thrissur area certain castes have names like Kurup. They are not nair Kurup and belong to OBC. Why Mannadiar is an aristocratic Nair title in Palakkad area. However in Palakkad itself, there is a subcaste of Thattans (Viswakarma) called Mannadiar. People with surname of Pannikkar are found amongst Nairs, Ezhavas as well as Kanniyans. So you see, caste names, like appearances could be deceptive. --Rams

Archived
I have archived the previous discussion. Please ensure that you post all new discussions to THIS talk page, and not the archived one. --Vivin Paliath ( വിവി൯ പാലിയത് ) 16:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Myth of the Last Perumal
Hey after Vivin said that claiming descent from a mythological figure was a method of gaining legitamacy, ive been thinking about the Cheraman Perumal story. Perhaps, as against the popular story, Cheraman Perumal actually FLED to Mecca and didnt just leave, coz of the Chola invasions. Maybe the Nair chiefs who rose over the crumbled kingdom claimed all sorts of relations with the Perumal to make their legitimate claim as Kings...and gain a backdoor entry into Kshatriyahood. what say u...Manu

Some of the corrections made to the article:
'Pagan' is a term which would more fit into Medivial Christian milieu that was used to decribe people who were not monothestic. And it was not a flattering terminology either. I wonder how it befits an encyclopedic article. There is no evidence, documentary or otherwise to prove large scale flow to other religions consequent to the rigid customs and traditions observed by the Nair community. -RAKS (September 2, 2006)

The title 'Nambiar' is held by cetain Nair feudal lords in Northern Malabar area. There is a caste of Ambalavasis called Nambiar, Kunjan Nambiar being the most famous example. However, Ambalavasis are not Nairs. The sentence explaining 'Nambiars' have been modified to a more unambigious form. Swaroopathil Nairs formed not only the ranks, but part of the officer cadre as well. -RAKS (September 3, 2006)


 * Hey, Ambalavasis are supposed to be Nairs only. But they are at a ritually higher level. Read Logans Manual. he mentions that certain temple castes of the Nairs were given higher status than the Nairs proper...manu


 * Hallo MANU, Logans manual while written painstakingly and as carefully as could be possible by a Eurpoean of those times, is not always correct. He has a tendency to conclude based on 'superficial' evidences. It should be admitted that the social structure of those times prevented him to go indepth into the social mores and fabric as he may have wished. Ambalavasis are more closer to Brahmins than Nairs. Similar to Brahmins, Ambalavasis (Pushpaka Brahmins) have gotra,certain subcastes have upanayanam etc. -RAKS


 * Manu, is it you who included that photo to the article??? It look very dignified. -RAKS


 * hey...ya i added it....i was wonderin whether sum1 mite remove it...anyways...RAKS, my grandad is an ambalavasi....ambalavasis like Nambeesan, Nambiathi, Moosad, Ilayathu etc have gotra and upanayan...warrier, marar, pisharody n all, who are the major populace among them, dont. besides even amblavasis are considered sudras...though above illathu nairs and below kiriyam nairs....refer to www.nairs.in..nevertheless, their origin is anyways jknown to be from the Nair caste.....its like the case of knanaya christians...while they live on the myth of having migrated from israel, their actual history is recorded in hindu puranas...they are supposed to be nairs and namboodiris who went sumwhere and became brashthu...so they were outcast...they converted to christianty but the other christians refused to accept them..thts y they started intermarrying...today they say they intermarry due to their high rank alias caste above all other christians...similar to this is the case of ambalavasis...ask an ambalavasi if he is a brahmin, he will say no...namboodiris have always called them sudra as well...they were equal to nairs in all terms, except that they didnt touch nairs.. as for Cheriyanadu, Cheriyanadu is near Chengannur...actually exactly in the middle of Chengannur and Mavelikara...but Chengannur Taluk..u know anyone there?Manu - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.144.97.143 (talk • contribs)


 * MANU, Ambalavasis are a Super Caste, consisting of many castes with different social standing in olden times. I know certain Ambalavasis like Marar is considered by Nairs as inferior to them. Certain others like Varrier have had a perpetual debate with Nairs each one claiming superiority over the other. Illyathu is genrally considered above Nairs. Their men may marry a Nair but not the other way. I left the Ambalavasi part from 'Nambiars' because as of now Nairs and Ambalavasis are considered different castes. I hope you'd put up the Tharavad pic too. Keep on with your good work. As I told you my Tharavadu is Thottapuzha at Edanattidom near Aranmula on Aranmula-Chenganoor route. Our branch shifted to Changanacherry long back, may be more than a century back. Our Kula devata is the Edanatidom Bhagavathy in the form of BalaBhadra. Abnout nairs.in. It's good that someone at last started a presentable website. And the lay out and info are good. They seems to have worked hard on it. But i found a lot of anomalies/mistakes that i'd brought to their notice. They replied telling me that they are receiving a lot of mails. Many of them are suggestions and clarifications. They have refered these to an expert and working on it. The happy part is that they take our response very positively. HAPPY ONAM!!!!! -RAKS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raksmanna (talk • contribs)


 * Hey...yes i know that in Travancore Marars are considered inferior...my grandad is one...triggered quite a controversy when my grandma married him...is it true that old articles from temples are stored in Aranmula Temple? One of the old Karnavans from our family had built the Cheriyanadu Subramanyam Temple and donated the Kodimaram...they found a Chembu Thagadu under the old Kodi Maram stating all that...it is said that the plate is in the Aranmula Kshetram now...anyways..


 * Ambalavasis including the thread wearing ones were never classed as Brahmins...whenever alms were distributed to Brahmins, Nambeesans, Moosads, Ilayathus etc were excluded...shows that they donot have Brahmin status but are Ambalavasis only...


 * Nairs.in is a good site...a few grammatical errors...and factual ones too...but as u said, presentable...i was just wondering about the shabby condition of the nairs.org site when i found that...and happy onam to u 2..yes i added the tharavad pic too...Manu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.144.101.6 (talk • contribs)


 * Nair ladies are known as Nairchis in most parts of Kerala. Nair+ Acchi(lady) joins together to form nairchi. There is no point in removing that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.91.253.137 (talk • contribs)


 * MANU, is it you there now????RAKS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raksmanna (talk • contribs)


 * where? and if u mean the nair+achi post i havent typed that...manu - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.144.106.89 (talk • contribs)


 * Manu Didn't you see the edits of somebody yesterday who seems to be hell bent to smear the nair caste. If you haven't then see it in history. Nair bashing in Public seems to be a favorite past-time for some. They seem to equate it with being egalitarian. Then somebody has proposed a theory about the origin of Tharavad kulams. -RAMS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramkumb (talk • contribs)


 * HAHAHHA....that thing about kulams and their origin was hilarious...i mean..dude they were dug up for bathing...and not after a house had been removed etc....he must have read about the fate of the ettuveetil pillais and concluded that all kolams were actually ditches where houses once stood ...can there be such stupid people? manu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.144.106.89 (talk • contribs)


 * MANU, Yes, i found it positively funny, to say the least. now a debate is raging in 'Caste system in Kerala' led my Manju. He certainly has some points. the castesystem in Kerala should not be viewed with the prism of the Chaturvarna system. i've added my own contributions. Pl go to history, discussion and the article -RAMS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramkumb (talk • contribs)

No Nair Chauvinism Here!
A user named Ramkumb seems to be using Wiki as his propaganda media. I would like to tell the Nair activists that this is not a place for your biased Nair eulogy. He has not even bothered about adding an edit summary where he vandalise article removing historically established points like the loose marriage system giving rise to promiscuity etc. Epithets like illustrious would better sutit a Nair Organisation pamphlet than an encyclopedia article. You may desist frm such unscrupulous removal of content and adding biased views. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.91.253.208 (talk • contribs)

Unbiasedness is a virtue which should be expected from one side of a debate. First cousins are not confid to nair community. It exist in muslims the world over, castes like ezhavas, tamil Brahmins etc. There are many ways to express a statement. you could put them in such a way as to sound it as sinful or as a virtue. Or you could state in a more objective way. I don't think that anyone who had gone through the edit of the illustrious friend who wrote the above post would term them as unbiased. Calling first cousin marriage incestous and putting a personal; verdict is deplorable. Statements like Nair women were mistresses of upper castes are horrible examples of twisting facts to suit one's perverted arguments. there are jokes about all castes in Yeh mera India. Dangling them publicly is undignified. Probably my friend should have a good look at himself in a mirror and ask himself whether he is doing what he preaches. RAKS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raksmanna (talk • contribs)

"Unbiasedness is a virtue which should be expected from one side of a debate." You need to eat your words unless you missed a "not" by mistake. Incest is sexual or marital relation between kindred. The case in point qualifies for that title.Tamil Brahmins had the custom of a girl marrying her own uncle on the mother's side (Mother's brother). That Nair community served as the mistress base for the upper classes is a well known fact. You can find that in more than one work of Ilamkulam Kunchanpillai. You want me to stand naked or clad before a mirror?

Putting half truths and twisted arguments to suit one's arguments and then putting a veneer of impartiality is an old method. Our friend who remains unnamed is using a tried and tested technique. Tamil brahmin boys also have a practise of marrying the maternal uncle's daughter. i guess i know the practise of the community i belong to. Muslim boys marry even paternal uncle's daughter. your impatient angst in your last post makes one wonder whether you haven't a personal agenda. The tremendous contribution of the community in the past and present are not even passingly referred. UPPER CASTE BASHING for all the real and imagined ills of society seems to be the inthing. The Brahmin is ultimately blamed for the social backwardness of certain communities today. Our friend seems to be following the same path. Then you should be prepared for reponses to your argument. But why get impatient when somebody expresses different opinions? SREE

Sree, you are right. It seems to be the fashion today. If he reads works like Indulekha and Marthanda Varma, he will understand how wrong he is. Maybe he should read them and get his facts right. Probably he has not heard Nairs who were commanders and diwans like Raja Kesava Das or Veluthampi. He beleives that if half turuths are repeated 10 times it would be truth and others are expected to believe them. In spite of all the famous people it has produced through the ages and the tremendous contribution in all walks of life, the writer likes to be blind and think they do not have an illustrious history and likes to think that encyclopedic writing follows the rules set by him. As you said, twisting or bending facts either because it suits his agenda or due to ignorance. How he dismisses others views? With utter impatence and contempt Ashwin

You deal in vague generalities and demand facts from others? Yes, I gave you some facts. I explained what incest was. It is a generally accepted definition. I mentioned a reputed historian (incidentally himself a Nair) who has mentioned a number of times in his works the promiscuity prevalent among the Nair caste. Stop shying away from the facts and try to answer them.

The implication of 'incest' varies from society to society. What's considered incest in one society may not be considered so in others. About mistresses, if you mean sambandham, Nampoothiris had sambandham with varmas, ambalavasis and nairs. The children of these marriages were recognised as children of the Nampoothiri but did not have claim to paternal property. I read in another article in wikipedia that nairs could legally keep concubines from so called lower castes. It was accepted as norm by all and i don't think it would have created any furore then. I think the issue of morality then should not be viewed with the prism of modern sense of morality. If your comments had generated so many responses, it may be because it was felt that you did not take into consideration the status the community enjoyed and as one pointed out the contribution to society yesterday and today. And may be you sounded impatient to criticism. Again, my friend why add caste jokes??I am not for verbal sparring RAKS

Some comments regarding the latest edits 1. The edits have added some names in the 'Classification based on Profession'. How those castes are different from Nairs (as commonly used) has been discussed already in the article and thus a separate heading alloted. The same discussion had been carried out at length, including the non-inclusion of these castes in community organisations like Nair Service Society. 2. The new additions were made on the basis of the argument 'If you have this section new entries also must be there'. The classification were earlier given in the hierarchial (decreasing) order of the [power, prestige and nobility of the various subcastes in ancient Kerala. One wonders why the new additions of castes whose occupations were considered less prestigous, were put before the most powerful subcaste, the Kiriyathils on the very top of the hierarchy. One wonders why the author of the edits who was so eager to set the record (in the way as he sees it) right,failed to notice this. 3. No discussion was attempted or views expressed before or accompanying the edits. 4. Those attempting edits may please attempt to discuss the topic to be changed/revised. Edits that serve to fulfill anybody's personal agenda or personal bias (for or against any caste, community, ethnic group etc.) may be avoided. Then the same response could be expected from those holding different or opposite views. Attempting to forestall a response or argument by alleging chauvinism or personal agenda would only lead to prolonged bitter and acrimonious debate that serves no purpose. No editing has been carried out by this author pending a healthy exchange of views. RAKS (Sept. 20, 2006)


 * RAKS, The answer is very simple. We are not dealing here with what Nair has been a hundred years ago. When you say "How those castes are different from Nairs (as commonly used)"... you are relying on a fallacy too poor to deserve a serious treatment. I live in Kerala and I am sure, in Kerala, Nair is "commonly used" to denote the denominations I added. 2. The hierarchy (which left a very large chunk in the lurch) was so stupid that I didn't care for that at all. 3. Edits don't require prior consensus. 4. My edit had no agenda as you hint at. Rather the article is seriously non-neurtral and casteist and factually blundering to boot. None conversant with Nair traditions of Northern Kerala seems to have participated in the edits. Much of the article doesn't even apply in the case of Nair of Northern distrticts. More edits more comments to follow. Kuntan 08:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well....those castes which were included by sumbody in the list above kiriyathil were never considered as 'nair's by the other nairs....even today, as said before, they have their own samajams and are out of the NSS jurisdiction....besides initialy, as far as i have heard, they were not known by the 'nair' title at all...they wereknown merely as chakalas or vattakatans etc....I also noted that mr Kuntan has added several articles related to nairs for deletion such as thampi, unnithan, samanthan etc...might i ask yManu

It is a pity that these casteists are afraid of revealing their identity. The fellow above removed the additions and thought he could hide behind some generic head like manu. "NSS Jurisdiction" doesn't count on Wiki.Kuntan 09:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Kuntan If you stay in Kerala, you would know that all the castes wthat are added are not considered nair, but are specially specified. You know very well that still no Nair would knowingly marry from these castes. why you hide all these. Then pray, why are they not included in NSS??? Why shouldn't they be??? If you are hell bent in propogating your own caste agenda and threaten to bend facts to suit you, do not expect others to shallow what you write. RAMS

Hey RAMS, Your casteist remarks don't deserve a reply. Wiki has its origin not in the NSS, I am sure!Kuntan 12:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well firstly, Manu is my name...and others here know my identity...dont need to specifically reveal it to you....anyways gettin back to the topic, see those people have been classed under a separate subheading in the subcastes section of the article...as for the NSS, yes ur rite NSS jurisdiction doesnt count on wiki...but it does in the case of the Nairs...ur very statement that "NSS Jurisdiction doesn't count on Wiki" itself proves that u seem to be used to doing anything on wiki just coz theres less control...anyways u may keep adding those names, i shall keep deleting them..atleast so till a proper discussion decides wht to do...and may i ask y uve added the deletion tags on Thampi, Samanthan, Unnithan etc?....manu

Hey Manu, where does the link you gave at the end of your comment lead? Why don't these people sign their names?Kuntan 14:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The members of Kerala Brahmin Sabha are Brahmins. Why they are members?? Simply because they are Brahmins. Nobody else. Why no Ambalavasis, Nairs or Ezhavas are members? Simple, because they are not Brahmins. I beleive it has nothing to do with a superiority complex or one being more superior or inferior than others. The members of NSS are Nairs. Beacause it is considered to be an organisation of Nairs. I think it hold true for any community organisation. SNDP is constituted by Ezhavas. By the same argument, Veluthedathu Nair Samajam would open its membership doors only for veluthedathu Nairs. NSS does not control wikipedia, but it is an indicator of the fact that only Nairs belong to NSS and nobody else. The same holds true for Brahmana Samajam. Else, why should there be separate organisations for Veluthedathu, Villakithala Nairs etc???? Right??? I think it is bad if you evade queries raised in Discussion under the guise of casteism. In India, every body knows that people tend to prefer to marry from their own community. And why those deletion tags, when Samnanthans are part of the history of today and yesterday in Kerala? Shouldn't there be more restraint?? I wonder isn't this the Bashing i mentioned in my post some days back. SREE So, you won't marry these sub-castes and you don't want them referred along with you. Since they are not given entry to NSS they should be called "others" and left out of all categories? When you say others you mean they are not part. Great logic indeed! You have shown your true colours! Things will be a lot easier now. Kuntan 15:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I repeat that MANU is my name....anyways what u said is totaly right...what we are all merely stating is that since Vilikithala etc were never considered Nairs proper and since they all are reseved, we have mentioned them in a separate list, giving the known history of the people. Now why do u think that THAT part of the article is factually incorrect? - Manu

Signing posts
It is very difficult to follow the above discussion and to know who said what when. It is important to sign your posts. Please see Sign your posts on talk pages -- Armadillo From Hell 04:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Tharavadu
Somebody has edited Tharavadu section as below.


 * Tharavadu is a system of joint family practised originally by Nairs and '''later by certain other castes.

'''

I have deleted the words in bold. Most of the systems in Kerala is also observed in Tulu regions. And it's difficult to know if some of these structures in Kerala were the original forms or that found in the Tulu regions. Tharavadu system practiced by the Malayalee communities in Tulu region(present day Northern Kasaragod) identify each Tharavadu with Illam names(a kind of Gotra common to all non-Brahmin Tulu/Malayalee communities in this region). I have read that lineage system in India is pre-Vedic and in fact even today could be observed in some of the the tribes like Chenchu. As I see it, most of the non-Brahmin Malayalee communities south of Kasaragod do not have this lineage system which might show some of the tribal markers might have been lost.

Also, if I remember correctly Tharavadus came into prominance with Brahmin Tharavadus. So it's difficult to judge what was its initial form and who shaped the later day structure.

Manjunatha (21 Sept 2006)

Regarding Nair subcastes/castes
First of all, please do not remove the TotallyDisputed-Section template until a compromise is reached. As a compromise I suggest removing the section until the information can be verified (citations required). Secondly, the entire list has to be NPOV'ed - information about which caste is "higher" or "lower", including "weasel words" need to be removed. There is no need of any casteist agenda here. Since we are dealing with a highly sensitive subject here, it is my opinion that the entire section needs proper citation. Otherwise, it shouldn't exist at all. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്) 15:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, that is the sensible thing to do meanwhile.Kuntan 15:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Vivin,
 * A consensus is a good thing at all times. But it should not be a compromise for the sake of compromise. Kuntan has indeed pruned and edited certain sections to make it more presentable. But pl note the following
 * 1. Nairs are the martial mobility of Kerala. That is a fact recorded by all historians and works of the period, including in the encyclopedias. I looked up topics on Rajputs, marathas etc in wiki and found that their martial past is not denied. Why deny the past
 * 2. The similarity to Samurai has been recorded by many including the Gatzers.
 * 3. The points/clarifications raised in Discussion should be addressed by all those concerned in either side of any argument. Social tied and marriage alliances are important indicators to the setup and practise of caste system.
 * RAKS


 * Raks, Kuntan is trying to NPOV the article. Some parts do come across as "glorifying" the Nairs, which we don't want here. You are welcome to add your citations, justifications, and information regarding the Nair subcaste hierarchy. Please do so, so that we can reach a consensus. I don't have anything to add regarding this, since I am not familiar with Nair castes and subcastes. Raks, please use the "colon" to indent your posts so that they are easier to read. To reply to mine, you would use four colons. Kuntan, the information regarding Nairs being similar to Samurai was added because I recall reading it in National Geographic article in the mid-90's - I will have to look it up. How about leaving it in the article, with a "citation required" notice? Anyway, I will remove the subcaste section until we can reach a consensus. --15:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Vivin, I am afraid I anticipated you there about removing the disputed part. I don't mind samurai reference in the article. You were correct. Both Nairs and Samurais were mercenaries (historically they were, I am not judging). I can't still understand why these people are not signing their names.Kuntan 19:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Kuntan, no worries. Anyway, I removed the entire section. But the article as a whole needs a LOT of restructuring and rewriting. If I had more time, and more access to the internet, I would do it. But that's not going to happen for at least a few more months --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്) 16:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Kuntan, I've added the this sentence "(and less commonly royalty, as in Palakkad and Kozhikode)" in 'Origns and History'. I hope you cab appreciate that it is a fact that you would not deny. I admit that you'd edited the first para of the same section into a more readable way. RAKS (Sept 23, 2006)


 * Vivin,I've added the rather readded the part relating to nairs' martial past and their similarity to Samurais. (But i've not added 'illustrious'. You are right. It sounds a bit trumpeting one's glory) I won't comment on deleting Nair castes. One thing i'll say, that all subcastes refered there do exist. Caste system was nothing to be proud of. In fact, it wss one thing that dragged our Indian culture to darkest depths in the past. Its bad effects could still be found in the society now. But when we write about a caste, we have to write about it as it existed. Too much glorification is as bad as manipulating facts. One need not be boastful of one's community at the same time, being apolegitic would not help. I know Kuntan has done a good job in pruning certain portions. At the same time I hope he can appreciate other's view points. Every body, try to take part in discussions and not evade questions/clarifications etc. RAKS


 * RAKS, If you know where the references are, please list them. That's the only way we can put them in here. Honestly, I can't think of a single place that lists the different kinds of Nairs. These may be "social truths" but that won't help because controversy, pride, and ego are involved. Secondly, please use colons to indent your posts - it makes it MUCH easier to read. Also, please sign your post with tildes (~). Thanks. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്) 16:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello...the best thing ofcourse is to reach a consesnsus after discussion...but do we all know much about various subcastes???? i mean hardly any info is available...also i see that the Kettukalyanam part has been almost removed....we need to get that written properly too - Manu


 * Added one point in the Kettukalyanam. RAKS


 * Somebody removed the link of List of 'Famous nair tharavads'. i tried to revert it, but found that such a link does not exist now. It is deleted. WHY??????

RAKS (Sept 27, 2006)


 * Somebody have vandlised the List of famous Nairs. Pl see the film and mohiniyattam fields. I did not check the rest of the list - RAKS

Length of Article
The article needs serious abridgement to reduce Kilo Bytes. The quotes on Nairs can be done without with no harm to the body of the article. Savemalayalam 05:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Nambiars
What is wrong with the Nambiar article. I have read from a historical essay that the title of Nambiar was created only in the 15th century for high nairs who protected Namboodiris and were given samanthan status. Whats with the indo aryan origin? and nambiars i know havent even heard of it...they all say they are nairs...Manu

Classification of Nairs
In the article, it is claimed that Nairs are Kshatriyas/Warrior Class. But according to the Class system in India, they fall into the Shudra class. Nairs are not Dvijas. Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are Dvijas. Since Nairs are not Dvijas, they are of Shudra Status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.17.230.9 (talk • contribs)

Nairs are not dvijas since apart from brahmins, there are no other dvija castes in Kerala, or South India for that matter. So your argument is not logical, because your model only applies to North India (where those who are not dvijas are shudras). In the South, only Savarna and Avarna are present, with the Savarna equating to the "dvijas" of North India (those who undertook the brahmin, kshatriya and vaishya jobs), and Avarna being equated with the North Indian "shudra" (laborious jobs,etc.) Kshatriya Grandmaster 03:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Well yes Nairs are not dwija simply coz they dont wear the thread...u need the thread to be dwija....anyways there was complete misinformation in the samanthan article which i had created...i was under the impression tht samanthans were royal progeny...but its not so and so i myself have corrected the article...it was after reading personally the travancore state manuals and nayars of malabar...yet people, who probably belong to those castes, keep putting in their names in the list...i recently removed kartha and kaimal....all karthas, menons, pillais etc belong to the illam category of nairs or so the book say..similarly the Nambiar (Kshatriya) article is complete nonsense...nambiars are mentioned particularly as'highest sudras of Malabar' in these books and there is nothing at all to prove that they 'entered kerala in the 7th century with the brahmins and are of indo aryan origin etc..' tht is plainly nonsense..but im not even making an effort to correct the nambiar article...mr kshatriya grandmaster, formerly knight, seems to strictly believe in aryan origins of the nambiars and their kshatriya status..im just concerned regarding the misinformation the article gives...Manu

As per the Hinduism in Kerala Nairs are Shudras and there is no doubt about that. It was their choice to accept shudra status and be part of the hindu religion supporting Brahmin supremacy.. The Castes that you call as Avaranas are those who refused to become slaves of Brahmins. It's true that some Nairs were given kshatriya status by Brahmins. I guess Varmas are promoted Nairs. But this doesnt mean that the entire Nair community belongs to Kshatriya varna. I believe in Varanas being defined by profession and not by Birth. - Rajesh.

Manu You're right but partly. The chaturvarna system was not followed in South as in North India. May be because, it came later to south with brahmanism. The Brahmins installed a system with them at the top and the rest of population in Kerala and south were divided into different castes ensuring their dominance in the social structure. That's why you don't find the marriage of women of Varma, Ambalavasi or nairs being married by Nampoothiris who happen to be younger sons of an illam. You won't find such a system in North. Nampoothiris considered themselves the highest type of Brahmins and considered other brahmins like Konkanis and tamil Brahmins below them. In Noth, no Shudra caste were given a say in the administrative and cultural system. Where would a Shudra man would be the Diwan, Commander in Chief or given the custody of temples??? I think families like Ettuveetil Pillamar, Paliyath etc are too well known to be mentioned here. But in Kerala, Nairs have dominated the nobility and administrative set up for centuries. Their dominance in military and administration is a fact well documented. Would one find anywhere in North, the king marrying a Shudra lady?? Leave alone king, any ordinary Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya man?? The consorts of many of the kings of Kerala were aristrocratic nair women??? Read the biography of a king, like Swathi Thirunal, Shakthan Thampuran. Why, The power struggle between Marthanda varma and his cousins, the Thampis are well known. It should be remembered that Thampis claim to throne had support of the nair nobility like Ettuveetil Pillamar and the Ettara Yogam that controlled the administration of Temples. The Yogam was composed of Prominent illams and nair Tharavads. Many of the ancient temples in kerala had one nair tharavad or other had a nair Tharavad as custodians. And these Tharavads appear prominently in the origin of such temples. The Thachuda Kaimal is the raksha Purushan of the Koodalmanickam Temple. It's true that some of these temples are taken over by the goverment now. The point i would like to make is this: The caste system Kerala and to an extent in South India is different from that in North. So trying to work out a one to one correspondence (in the mathematical sense) between the social setups in Kerala and North would be presumptive and overlooking the characteristics of the local region. For your information, Thampis, valiyathans etc are royal progeny. But this does not mean that every progeny would have such titles. Most of the prominent nair Tharavads (be them of Pillais, Menons, Karthas, mannadiars) had marital links with the royal household of the respective regions. Such alliances benefitted both- the king in that he could ensure military support when neede, the tharavad in the prestige bestowed and influence they could have in running of the state. RAKS

That is exactly the point...so basically the Nairs are kshatriyas only...if u say they arent then half the kshatriya clans of India, the Marathas, Jats, Reddies, Bunts (Aishwarya Rais comm) etc wud be considered sudras...the thing is in kerala the nairs themselves said 'we nairs are sudras'...whereas other sudra-kshatriya clans like marathas refused to accept that and so people consider them kshatriyas...i dont see any reason for debate...nairs are kshatriyas though religiously they are branded sudras...

as for royal progeny...well if u notice unnithans and pillais intermarried...coz apparently these were the classes closest to the kings of Kerala..The difference is that with Unnithan and Valithan...they were titles that were given to progeny of kings who had no teretorial sovereignity only during Marthanda Varmas times...this was because he had newly conquered central travancore etc and needed loyal nobles and chiefs...so make ur relatives marry their women and grant them a special title...with that u get both their loyalty and ur control over those regions remains safe...thts all

And one good news is that many of the fictional things related to nairs have been verified by me...i have purchased a copy of the travbancore state manual which has helped a lot in gaining correct information regarding everything..and somebody PLEASE correct the Nambiar article tht speaks of the fantasy of aryan origin etc...ive given up even trying to correct

And i need some help...i am searching for an Unnithan family from Karackad or Karakkad or whereever that is in Chengannur Taluk...they ruled the place...we have our roots there...incase anyone knows...UNNITHANS FROM KARACKAD ie..thanksManu

07 Dec: The Nambiar (Kshatriya) Article is reaching its apex of nonsensicalness...now theres upanayan and sacred thread also for nambiars...i wonder when all these social changes took place n we never got to know...Manu

There is nothing so nonsensical about this.The Ambalavasi sect of the Nambiars in Travancore wear the sacred thread which can be worn only after Upanayanam.

Rajeev Rajendran Nair.

Perhaps you failed to notice that i mentioned the Nambiar (Kshatriya) article...yes ambalavasis do...but the very name (Nambiar Kshatriya) is wrong. Manu

Koothachis
Ok whats the meaning of koothachi? is it a title or sumat? the samanthan article is being constantly vandalised by a user SanjKaimal by adding nair names etc..again i am reapeatin ive specifcally read, learnt the samanthan groups and not a single nair clan fits into it...they are the fixed 6 grps..thsts all...

This user mentions tht samanthans women are koothachis and i think he had even written thevathichi...ive heard of thankachi as a title...and thevathichi is a slang word...thts y im askin u guys...whts kootachi?Manu

koothachi is another name given by locales for devadasi's or similar women who host some dance programme [kooth) in ancient days. these devadasis performed not only dances but also some extra carricular activites like entertaining people with sexual abilities. gradually the dances were abolished and only their other profession remained. thats why later on koothachi became synonymous to prostitutes ref: ജാതിവ്യ്വസ്ഥയും കേരള ചരിത്രവും. പികെ ബാലകൃഷണന്‍. കറന്‍റ് ബുകസ്. 2005  --ചള്ളിയാന്‍ 13:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah so as i guessed,,,the user is a vandal...and well his attitude is tryin to promote nair ladies as koothachis and thevadichis seems a lot like the old member kuntan....neways/...atleast the meaning is clear Manu

POV info regarding Kalaripayattu
I have removed the following text as it is extremely POV:

''The nairs pioneered the art of warfare by creating the worlds oldest and one of the most articulate martial arts Kalaripayattu. The ramification of Kalaripayattu meant that it was further spread up north and evidently evolved into other forms of martial art such as Kung fu. Whilst the rest of the world and India were fighting wars in a barbaric manner the nairs had given birth to eloquent civilised art forms such as Kalaripayattu and from that came Marmam Marmam was a very advanced way to temporarily or permanently disable or kill an opponent using only a finger strike. Marmam capitalised on the copious knowledge of acupressure and other deadly arts that the Nairs had. However in recent times Marmam has been used only for therapeutic purposes it is known to cure many ailments and illnesses.'' --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  21:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Some examples are their own form of inheritance (Marumakkathaayam), warfare (Kalaripayattu), I think this statement is not true. Many of the Ezhavas also followed Marumakkathayam and they were also well versed in Kalaripayattu. Please remove such statements.

Editing Ezhava page
Hello Nair friends - Please content youself within this article to propagate your fantasies. I am an Ezhava. I have seen people editing Ezhava article adding information about Nairs. Please refrain from it. - Rajesh.

Major rewrite
I have undertaken a major rewrite of the article. Secondly, I have removed to classification of Nairs as "sudra". While true to a certain extent according to the varna system, they can also be considered as Kshatriyas seeing as they were martial, and were also rulers. Leaving it in there is only going to start an edit war. --65.39.85.244


 * Hey ur rewrite is appreciable...perhaps you can rewrite the Nambiar article which is totally, forgive me, crappe. Nevertheless, you seem to have forgotten the list of surnames while editing this article Manu


 * Oops! I went ahead and added it back in. I think I accidentally deleted it while rewriting the article. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  10:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Nambuthiri Supremacy
I saw in your article tat "Nairs" lost their power after the arrival of Nambuthiries.. This is very unusual. How can a priestly class (a minority) dominate over a ruling class and the later being considered a Shudra? It's unbelievable.. The most likely chance could be that, some other community (possible thiyya/ezhava) was ruling kerala. Some people believe that Cheraman Perumal was a Thiyya. And the Nair's sought the intelligence of the foriegn Nambuthiries to sieze the power from the ruling community.
 * The Cheras have been thought to be Nairs. By your own logic, wouldn't it seem "absurd" that the minority Nambuthiris and Nairs could seize power from the ruling Ezhava or Thiyya class? There exists no record of such a major conflict. The Nambuthiris, after arriving in Kerala, established themselves as the foremost caste by virtue of being Brahmins. This has nothing to do with "Nambuthiri Supremacy". It's just history. In fact, you can see this is the story of Parasuraman granting land to the Nambuthiris by flinging his axe to the sea. It actually comes from an old Chera story where the Chera King Velkezhu Kuttavan throws is spear into the sea and claims land from it. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  18:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Vivin - Do you have any records for Cheras being Nairs? Also parasurama story is only a story not reality. How can someone claim land by throwing spear :)
 * I think you misunderstood me. What I meant is that there is more evidence to support the declining power of Nairs, and they replacement by the Namboothiris. I didn't say that the Nairs [i]are[/i] the Cheras, but only that they have been thought to be. That being said, I took it from the article. Perhaps that needs a Fact tag until evidence can be cited by it. Please sign your comments. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  23:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He didnt misunderstand anybody..he just doesnt seem to have reasons..i recently came to know tht there seems to be a lot of hate towards the nairs among people of other castes...not tht im proud of nairs having subjugated them all n upheld the caste systeme et cetera....but just surprising Manu

Nairs as Sudras
From O. Chandumenon's Indulekha (in the Foreword): "...Meanwhile, changes taking place in agriculture (increasingly tuned to export and the money economy) and land ownership/tenure had increased the wealth and standing of the Nairs (a martial group, Sudra by caste) in relation to that of the Nambuthiris...". Seems like a good enough source. What say? --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  21:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * cOOL....yup add it...i m proud of being a Nair and the article will actually seem more cool and interesting, also factually correct technically, when on one hand it states they were Sudras and on the other that they were upper caste.and tht instead of peasants and dalits they were warriors etc...i am all for Sudra Manu


 * too diplomatic.. But it doesnt seem to exist in the article anymore. Who would like to be called a Sudra? A resolution was passed in the last NSS general body meeting that Nair shouldn't say Nair is Sudra. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.147.57.6 (talk) 13:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC).
 * What people would like to be called is quite irrelevant. This is an encyclopedic article. We need to state things from a historical perspective, not an ideological one. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  06:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Balle Bhesh! So, the daggers are drawn, eh? Too many cases of unemployment!

Well, I have reason to believe that the article on Nairs 's n't well written. I have reservations on the quality of the text, in the first instance.

It might do an ocean of good to remember that webcasting implies the whole world's privy to what you type out on the computer.It's the best policy then to keep in mind the erudite elite among the prospective readers.

Encyclopaedia presents quality information in a precise as well as concise manner.An edit need not be a consensus amongst a large group, as long as the matter presented is authentic and can be substantiated any moment, through use of the many implements,-in this case- ,of history and anthropology.

Let's strive together to transform this article to one that meets the most rigourous quality appraisal.KundanKoothattukulam 07:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

KunDaaa - Mind your words.


 * People removing the infobox, and rewriting it, please refrain from doing so. I am going to request that this article be blocked from edits by new users. --Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  14:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Picture
HGey ive added a picture of a Nair lady...i took permission from the Arumana Family for the same...i think it will be suitable for this article...quite a grand picture Manu

The picture'a alright,though I feel the thighs being a bit too wide apart suggests the matriarch had an extremely sensuous and impudent bearing.For that reason, the portrait is not truly representative of the tribe of charming Nair belles that's vanished for good.Nevertheless, all credit goes to Manu for ferretting out this momento from a bygone era.KundanKoothattukulam 07:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Talking of pictures, why not bring in portraits,

-of illustrious generals like

1.IravikuttiPillai Padathalavan (his army defeated the Dutch in the battle of Kalachal near Trivandrum; the Dutch Captain DeLennoy was brought to the Travancore Court as prisoner.Iravikutti Pillai was assassinated later on by the treacherous Pandya soldiers; he was beheaded and his severed scalp was presented to Tirumala Naicken of Madurai)

2.Veluthambi Dalawa, the General of Travancore during the reign of the impotent and effeminate ruler BalaramaVarma. Thampi refused to accept suzerainty of the British encroachers on the soveriegn state of Travancore.Thampi's Charter of Freedom (well known as the Kundara Declaration of 1802) challenged the British East India Company.Deserted by the cowardly Paliathachan with whom he had forged an alliance with, and surrounded by the British, Thampi killed himself at Mannadi near Pathanamthitta in the year 1809.The foriegners hanged the corpse again in Trivandrum where it remained for days for the vultures to feed on.The "Ruler" of Travancore did not raise a finger when the personification of Malayali valour and vigour was humiliated thus.PayyamvelliChandu 08:38, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Cowardly Paliath Achan indeed. There may be not be any hope of pricing my neutrality in this matter seeing that I am from Paliam, however history would seem to disagree. The Paliath Achan himself went against the British. He was forced to surrender when the British threatened his entire tharavadu. That being said, many of the Dalawa's allies had to do the same thing for similar reasons.--Vivin Paliath (വിവി൯ പാലിയത്)  01:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

-of warriors like Thacholi Othenan

-of artistes such as K C S Panicker, and others.PayyamvelliChandu 08:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * We cud get in pictures but we need to be careful regarding the copyright thinsg etc....the picture i added is from the Arumana family itself...so no prob..we cant copy from another website....but try....i suggest Shashi Tharoor and Lakshmi Sehgal etc also...and yes Kuntan she has every reason to be haughty...she was the maharajahs wife...as for your disturbing comment, i choose to ignore it..Manu


 * Aye! Aye manu! What's so disturbing about a comment? It's a comment after all. By the way, I have nothing to do with "Kuntan". i hope you must have come across names such as Mukundan, Kundan Laln Saigal etc. "Da" is pronounced as a Khosha Vyanjana ( "tha"-gharam, "dha"- athigharam, "da"- khosham, "tdha"- athighosham, "na" - anunasikam).

"Kuntan", on the other hand is the Malayali slang for a gay youth!PayyamvelliChandu 09:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank You...but i wasnt talking abt u...i was talking abt the writer of the previous post...he seems to be an old boy from wiki who had been banned recently...seems hes back...and with support...and kuntan happens to be his name i think...he had said so..and sign ur comments Manu

Oh that! That too was me. Payyamvellichandu and Kundan Koothattukulam are two pseudonyms of the same person who is different from any other "Kuntan" that you are referring to.I have n't visited these pages before today.

"Kundan" is a synonym for Krishna and is popular in North India.PayyamvelliChandu 10:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In that case my sincere apologies....the old kuntan (his name ws tht) was a pain..Manu