Talk:Nair/Archive 7

Vote for Caste or Community
Let us resolve this democratically! Just add your vote below in one word. Only signed votes would count. Use 4 ~ to sign your post. I could only find another major website with this much information on nairs. They use the word community to represent themselves. http://www.nairs.org/home.php?projects

Vote Here:
 * 1. Community Thampran 16:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 2. Caste Manu
 * 2. Community Veracious-sojourner 22:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 3. Caste made up of several communities Kshatriyan 08:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * 4. I vote for Community (Samudayam). Malayalees say "Nayar samudayam" and not "Nayar Jathi". Panikkar
 * 5. Community Bostonboy35 18:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC) (Caste started 3-9AD, nayar community known from 2-3BCE.)


 * Please read this. Nair is a caste, not a community. This is what it is known as commonly throughout the world. There is no "unilateral decision" here. Here, we go by the most common definition of something, and not by an interpretation. -- vi5in [talk] 22:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What is commonly known or comprehended isn't necessarily right. The Majority of Caucasian Americans think Hindus worship cows and all Muslims are terrorists, does that mean they are right? It's derived from their ignorance and ineptitude in understanding something in totality. It's factually inaccurate not to mention pejorative to call Nairs a Caste 1. Lower castes assimilated into the Nair fold and took up the surname "Nair" these segments of Nairs are eligible for reservation unlike their upper stratosphere counterpart of Nair. 2. There are even cases of Pulayans/dalits being inducted into the Nair Pattalam and given the surname Nair after showing exceptional valour in the art of warfare. Nairs as a whole are way too diverse to be counted as a caste, when there were divisions of Nairs who were Kings Lords and Warriors whilst other divisions of Nairs were Servants how can we call "Nairs" as a caste? So if we write what is commonly understood throughout the world, is that not merely proliferating ignorance, and not enlightening people with the truth? Because the truth is not so dichotomous Veracious-sojourner 23:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Vivin did not mean, i believe, what u interpret it as. If you look into all the old writers on Nairs they are known as a caste and not a community. Manu


 * The Nair caste (original) were the "Kings, Lords, Warriors" that you talk about. The "Servant" Nairs were people who received or adopted the Nair title, but do not intermarry with the former Nairs. Just because the "Servant"/"Barber" Nairs have the Nair name doesn't mean they are part of the same caste as the Warrior Nairs, just as Punjabi Nayyars (some of whom have Nair as last name) are not part of this article. Kshatriyan 08:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The former is a minority. Can you quote a single Nair King? Can u give any referece to "caste Nair" before the arrival of Nambuthiris. What do u mean by servant/Barber ? I agree that Barber (Vilakithala) and Washermen (Veluthedath) are considered a different community. But "servant" is a broader term. Majority of Nairs were servants, be it serving Nambuthiri / Kings / Nair lords. User:Panikkar


 * I see the user Panikkar obviously is a pioneering quantum physicist who has invented his own time machine to travel back in time and check the status of every Nair tharavad and then he designates them as " servants ", whats the point? Don't make statements without historical evidence it just makes you look like a belligerent buffoon (no offence intended). Well both of you guys are are of two extremes one of you claims the majority of Nairs were servants the other claims the Majority of Nairs were Lords/Warriors. The truth is they were both warriors/lords and some kings and they were also servants. No community on earth can be 100percent anything, the truth is Marathas, Jats, Nairs, Reddys, religiously were all designated as Shudras but sociologically they were warrior clans the majority of which did not do servantile duties. The only true so called "kshatriyas" in India are the Rajputs and a handful of Varmas. Even within the Rajputs you will find those who did servantile duties for higher Rajput households or Brahmins. So how can you say Nairs did not do servantile duties? It's evident some did! Secondly to Panikkar the ingenious inventor of the time machine, maybe you should read historical evidence and not comprehend it in such a biased manner so that it satisfies your obfuscated anti Nair sentiment. Historically even the word " Nair " was a synonym for warrior why else would the army of Kerala be called the " Nair Pattalam " why else would the kings of kerala only recruit Nairs into this Army? Secondly as for " Nair kings". In South India the most ardent snake worshippers were Nairs, the Nairs had almost identical rituals and customs as the Chera kings, even the etymology of the word " chera " is a type of snake. many historians agree that the chera kings were Nairs. read the 3rd paragraph of this article if you want proof http://www.shelterbelt.com/KJ/khnairs.html and lastly its obvious by now that just because you don't have the surname Nair it does not mean you are not Nair. The samanthan kshatriyas of kerala Eradis Nambiars Karthas were all Nairs, once they became chieftains some of them went through hiranyagarbha and acquired the surname of " varma " The Varmas of kerala have identical customs to Nairs and they always married pillai ladies from the thampi clan. So its pretty obvious the Varma kings were originally Nair too, to this day they intermarry only with Nairs or amongst themselves. When a son graduates and is vested with the title of DR does it mean the son is not the fathers son anymore? Its a simillar case with Varmas just because their surnames have changed doesn't mean they are not Nairs, since their customs, rituals is a mirror image of Nair customs. There were Nairs who were servants, there were Nairs who were kings, but as per historical evidence the majority were soldiers. Lastly to the user panikkar, if the majority of nairs were servants the indian government would have given them reservation like ezhavas have. Veracious-sojourner 01:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What u mean by a warrior? Do you mean all soldiers were warriors? But its true that all soldiers were servents. Not vice versa. Nairs were servents of Mansas, temples and kingdoms. In the last case they were soldiers. Soldiers were from many Jatis of not just from nairs though they occupy a major portion. Please dont bring this chera nonsense to wiki. This chera claim is like claiming Kozhikkode is the land of kozhis. These type of co-occurrences can be found in many caste, place and house names. But thats nothing to do with truth.124.125.228.163 10:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough to not bring in the point of chera, lets leave that. However you didn't address many of my other points, because your reasoning couldn't counter any of it. Your indoctrination over what a servant is rather flawed, here are the reasons for that. The majority of soldiers in kerala were of Nair stock hence the kings called the army of Kerala as "Nair pattalam" if you mean these people who were soldiers are servants merely because they served someone else then as per your reasoning 99 percent of people in the world are SERVANTS. A minister a prime minister a general they all serve a higher powers too. So you should elucidate what you claim a servant is. There is a Nair subcaste called Paliath, Paliath Achans were heriditary prime ministers they were servants too right? Because they served a king. All Ezhavas in Kerala are also servants too even when some of them were kalari teachers and astrologers, right. Now do you see how absurd your rationale is? A kalari teacher, an astrologer a soldier etc cannot be classed as servants. Its rather pejorative and insulting to call a whole community a group of servants be it Nairs or Ezhavas or anyone. Lastly judging by your definition of a " warrior " you don't seem to have a dictionary anywhere around your house, if you did you would realise the definition of a warrior is "One who is engaged in or experienced in battle" This is exactly what a soldier is, thus they are warriors. If the Nair pattalam was an inexperienced army i doubt they would be the only army in asia to defeat a european power ( the Dutch in the battle of colachel ), if these soldiers were mere servants i doubt there would be so many historical quotes over kings bragging about how many nairs are in their army. Yes i am also aware there are minor segments of every community who were soldiers, but the point they were minorities and none of them had their own armies none were as well trained as the Nair pattalam this is why historians designated nairs as a warrior clan since the majority of that community were in the profession of warfare. even the british designated nairs as a " martial race " they saw them as a threat and banned kalaripayatu so Nairs lost their strength. If you want me to buy you a dictionary so you can look up the definition of " warrior " i will be glad to. It isn't my intention to glorify anything but i think you can understand how demeaning it sounds to be called a servant, so my intention was to correct you on that thats all. Veracious-sojourner 13:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This is a description of some reputed personals and colorful stories. Both Nairs and ezhavas were shudras either by repute or by profession. Both were engaged in similar professions, but nairs were very close to Brahmins and Royal houses and become more poerful as land loards and naduvazhis. Many nairs become soldiers than any other community members. But there were a lot of farmers as well. And ahout Chera. As per malabar manual, cheraman perumal was originally cheruman perumal. He was cheruman, that is a paraya clan.


 * As stated by the anonymous user even a soldier is a servant. Check the definition in your dictionary. You claim that Varmas are Nairs (per your time machine), but Varmas deny that. The reservation enjoyed by Ezhavas is the outcome of caste politics. When Nairs were allowed education in 19th, only a minority of Ezhavas could avail that and they had to look out for jobs outside Kerala. Hence the reservation (I honestly feel the reservation concept should vanish gradually). Should that mean that Nair were not servants? There are references stating that Nairs served in Rich Ezhava houses in the past? Btw, Ezhavas are enjoying only 10% reservation. But you (Nairs) enjoyed more reservation in the past.
 * Who are those historians claiming Cheras to be Nairs? What time machine are they using? Panikkar

There is huge difference between a soldier and a servant. It is basically the difference between a protector and a slave. Nairs were protectors of the society in the past. I never said they were all kings or lords. A minority of them were kings and majority were soldiers, I mean a FRONTLINE WARRIOR WHO CARRIES A SWORD OR BOW AND ARROWS. Also all the servants of Nairs and above were Nairs who in real sense can be termed as the Sudra Nairs. They were however, a minority. There were also private security personnels who served the very rich Brahmins and Kshatriyas. They also served many early foreign settlers of this country like the Jews and the British East India company as security forces.

In short, a minority of Nairs were kings and another minority were servants. But the main chunk of this community were armed men who either served a country or rich establishments of that age. So basically they can be termed as Protectors of the society who were known as “Arunoornas” and “Nattukkoottams” who acted like a “Parliament” and helped the king of the land in many ways including supply of armed men from their “Kalaris”. Also they had the power to “Veto” the king during decision making. The “Ettuveettil Pillamar” went even a little too far in reaching up to the throne. (Ref. Asiatic Research published 1864)

You don’t really need a time machine (BTW, Mr. Panikker has an obsolete one) to guess that Nairs and the ‘Chera’ connection. “Chera” in Tamil means Snake which again refers to “Naka” from which the word 'Nair' derived. Yes, Sometimes it better to have some minimum common sense and analytical skills while comprehending things. There again, that’s where the soldiers go ahead of the servants, you see. User:Keraleeyan —The preceding  signed but undated.

Ok everyone, you have all blown away Panikker's weak points. To the extent he can't even answer them. So now move onto something more worthwhile. Don't bother arguing with someone who is so insecure that he thinks insulting another community makes his community look good and his objective is very clear when you read any of his posts here. Bandwidth bandit 05:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

List of Nair Kingdoms
Here’s a list of princely states ruled by Nairs. (Ref. Malabar Manual, Chapter 4, Page 3)

1.	Randatthara 2.	Iruvai nadu 3.	Kurungothu 4.	Payyurmala 5.	Puzhavai 6.	Kavalappara

Considering the population of Nairs during that time, the no.of Nair kingdoms were a minority and most of them were soldiers. The servant Nairs were a minority and were never treated on par with other Nairs. Also there were Nairs who worked as accountants (kanakkapillai), ministers and chieftains. However, The word ‘Nair’ was synonymous to ‘Warrior’ as in the case with ‘Bhataru’ and Bunt.

In Travancore, ONLY Nairs were considered for the army (even today you can see the stone which the prospective candidates had to lift 101 times to get into the army). Meenachil Karthas who were rulers of “Meenachil” (Palai, kottayam) were a Nair kingdom in Travacnore.

Just making open ended statements like “Nairs were servants” doesn’t look good in a forum unless you are able to substantiate your arguments (it reminds me the cat that drinks milk by closing its eyes, thinking that no one will see the stealing act !).User:Keraleeyan —The preceding  signed but undated.
 * They might be nadu vazhis and these naduvazhis and kings are different.Though malayalam word Naduvazhi is same as sankrit word Raja, Naduvazhis only village rulers. Even ettara yogam were tamil pillai naduvazhis but set up by namoothiris —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * These kings were not Naduvazhis. U will find a list of these people in history books. They were independant kings and after Tipus invasion of Malabar Rajah Kesavadas of Travancore reinstated them at their kingdoms. The Meenachil Karthas were, i think, defeated by Marthanda Varma and Meenachil was annexed. The Ranni Karthas willingly ceded their kingdom. They were not mere feudal lords but independant chieftains. Manu —The preceding  signed but undated.
 * ie, thousands of kingdoms in small area on malabar cost!!!!u know, even tribals had their kingdoms and kings! Each caste had their own rulers. They cannot be called as King. Kartha is kind of owner of a kara(means land) and its wealth. They were called adhikaris or chieftians or landloards or naduvazhis. Not a raja. The word kartha derived from karam theerpar.The original owners of the land and its wealth were Namboothiris(After the brahmin era). They used some people for tax deciders and collectors(karam theerpar). They later known as kartheepar and then karthaakal. They slowly became owners of this land and used kudiyans as agricultural labours there. Slowly they became land-loards and chieftains ie. Naduvazhis. The word karthavu is recent usage part of 3rd gegenration of sankranization and is common in kerala cristinanity. Meeaning universal savior that is god itself. In olden times, cristians, jews, muslims and hindus used padachavan means creator(who is savior too). Just like Aamma and achan replaced by Mathav and pithav, padachavan replaced by strashtavu for hindus and karthavu for cristians. This word have nothing to do with kartha. Now this wikipedia has become collection of articles and contents with no logical base. It has become a media of some useless people(of most of the caste in india) who claims their caste of kshatriyars and warriors. Even meenas(ST) of north amd pallars(SC) of tamil nadu, claim this.(There might be 1 or 2 rulers and warriors from all these caste). Time has reached to clean up all these nonsense from wikipedia.124.125.228.163 09:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me remind you that we are not talking of tribal chiefs here..the people u mention are feudatories of kings...eg the ettuveetil pillamar (ofcourse their loyalty towards the king was only namesake). The Kartha title is derived from "Karthavu" meaning Lord. Reference will be found in Nagam Aiya and Shungunny Menon. The Karthas i mentioned may have originated the way u mentioned but at the time of Marthanda Varma they were independant rulers and Marthanda Varma had to enter into separate treaties with them. If they were only Naduvazhis on behalf of some kings then this would not be essential...and let me tell you the Meenachil Karthas are of Rajput descent.. Manu —The preceding  signed but undated.
 * Yet another claim with no base and no valid cogent evidence!! Karthas initial surname was pillai later turned to be kartha after becomind tax deciders and tax collectors. They were tamil vellalas. They form fist migrants of pala, ponmunnam area once inhibited by present day SC/ST populations. An article(as part of church annual celebrations) has come in MM some time back, tells an incident about a church feud with One Mr muthunayakam pillai(A karam theerpar of the locality) about the land allocated to them regarding tax collections(Land allocatted to them by another karam theerpar who have already become a chieftain). Guys so much educated are making silly claims to make identified themselves as descedents of royal monarchy. This is really pathetic.

More PATHETIC is to believe in an article which has come in MM. Meenachil Karthas are of Rajput origin. Their title was "Damodara Simhar" which refers to 'Singh'. They migrated to Madurai during 14th century AD and reached Palai, named "Meeachil" after "Meenakshi" which obviousely refers to Meenakshi of Madurai.Many of their customs are same as the Rajputs including the family name Mevada (Mewar) and they had many rituals which are different from the Nairs like funeral processions and family deity as 'Bhavani' etc. However, this is only w.r.t the Meenachil Karthas and not applicable to other Karthas. User:Keraleeyan —The preceding  signed but undated.


 * Yup i didnt say all karthas were rajputs...i dont know abt the karam theerpar thing but shungunny Menon in his history of Travancore states clearly about the existence of Kartha and Kaimal titles long back and their origin from Karthavu. Anyways... Manu —The preceding  signed but undated.

Keralolpathi
I have created the Keralolpathi article and mentioned its discrepancies etc. I was slightly surprised when i read in Shungunny Menon that it was composed in the 17th century by Thunchaththu Ramanujan Ezhuthachan and the various flaws it has. Interstingly he places more confidence in the Sanskrit Keralamahatmayam while finding the Malayalam Kerala Ulpathy a compilation from that ancient text. The Mahatmayam which is a Hindu Purana btw calls Nairs the descendants of Deva Rakshasa and Gandharva women with Brahmins while the later Ulpathy calls them descendants of Sudras who came with the Brahmins. However the details like the Aryans coming from Ahikshetra etc are the same in both the texts. The Mahatmayam deals with the Parasurama period alone ie the creation of Kerala and the people while the Ulpathy deals with history uptil the British period which also proves that it is not an ancient work. Just thought id let u know abt the article..and one more thing..i found out about Hiranyagrabha..it is not a ritual that converts a Sudra to Kshatriya but merely a Danam or gift to Brahmins to be made by any great king on his coronation...there are 18 such danams and Hiranyagarbha is the first..besides the Malayali kings, Shivaji and even a few Mughal emperors, Rani Ahalya Bayi Holkar etc have performed the same.. Manu

To the contributors of Nair Article
I have found following statements handicapped

''Some anthropologists are of the view that the Nairs are not indigenous to Kerala, as many customs and traditions distinguish them from other Keralites. Some examples are their own form of inheritance (Marumakkathayam), warfare (Kalaripayattu), Gods and Goddesses (Nagas or serpents, and Bhadhrakali), and numerous sub-castes and surnames. There is also a belief that the Nairs are Nagas.''

Marumakkathayam is fond in many communities in south india like Nair, billava, thiyyas of noth kerala(amoung thiyyas of south kerala, some follows Marumakkathayam while others Makkathayam). This custom is followed many other communities in karnataka, called Aliya Santhana there. In tamil nadu also its followed.In TN the concepts of Murai veedu, Mura Kulam, Murai Maman are very common even now. It was followed by almost all communities in Sri lanka(Still some communities in kandi follows this extensively than in kerala) Its also noted that its not practised by any north indian or aryan communities of south india including Namboothiris of kerala.

The stmt their own form Kalaripayattu is confusing. Kalaripayattu practised by many communities in kerala including Nadars, ezhavas, brahmins, mappilas and cristians. Even the trainers of ettuveetil pillaimars were ezhava panickers.

Nagas or serpents worship in Tulunadu is done by billavas similar to thiyyas of kerala. they are called Poojary s there. Its not done by Bunt caste which is similar to nairs of kerala.

Malayali Bilavas(a suscetion of Billava) of [Tulunadu]] (also called belchadas or belichappads)is only community there who have Bhadhrakali worship. Many castes in kerala like Arayans and ezhavas have Bhadhrakali temples. Before Sankinization of kerala most of the gods of thiyyas of entire kerala were Marutha, chirutheyi etc (all forms of Durga or bhadrakali). Kuruppanamrs of kerala are part of ezhavas and actively involved in many Bhadhrakali temple rituals owned by the ezhava community.

So i think it wud b more accurate to add the "also practised" to the above statements.

Also like to point out thats Nairs used Manja charadu (even rich families)for marriages while most other communities like thiyyas and nadars used nool chardu, either made of gold(By rich families) or Mukku pandam(by poor familis). This is there all south indian states. the concept of Manja charadu is not there in north indian communities.

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 12:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your confusion on 'their own form Kalaripayattu', it could be attributed to the fact that as a community, Nairs were the most ardent followers of Kalari payattu as part of their occupation. Though other castes were also practicing the same, it was mostly for peace-time activities like as instructors in Kalaris and as physicians for ‘Marma’ and “Nadi’ treatments and they were a mere minority. The main vocation for all other communities were something else like Ezhava, Nadar (farmers mainly toddy) Mappila and Christian (trade). Brahmins (?? Did they practice Kalari payattu??)

I do agree that there were other communities which also followed Matrilineal system. Matrilineal system was basically followed by warrior clans since they loose their men folk in war. Thiyas of malabar were also part of warrior groups (even they were part of Mamankam). However, the ‘Murai’ system in TN is not related to that. They follow patrilineal system. The family relations in TN are totally different from that of Kerala. 'Murai Maman' (maternal uncle) is a prospective groom for a girl where as in Kerala, Maman is considered as a progenitor.

Bunts/Nadavas are considered as equivalent to Nairs. In fact Manual of Madras Administration states that both the communities belong to the same race with similar background and vocation. And they too very much follow Matrilineal system (of course not at present). They were also serpent worshippers.

Marutha and chirutheyi, how are they related to Bhadrakali?? Durga is different. Kali is considered as kuladevatha (family deity) by many Nair families. Kali temples are very rare in S.India (though there is a general notion that they are same as Bhagavathi/Amman/Durga etc). Most of the Kali temples are in the North East part of India. User:Keraleeyan
 * i think this discussion going beyond its limits.It would be good if all understand Caste dominance is a history now. I just questioned about some statements in the article in the talk page. i asked to to include word "also' to the statement. Marumakkathaayam was used by many communities in kerala(thiyyas in south also uses same but some follow makkathayam). makkathayam) is common with aryan communities. this was my point. Also about temple i will give an example. There is a small village in kollam distrct called ampalmkunnu.There are many temples
 * (1)Nettayam Indilayappan(A form of krishnan) temple
 * (2)Valiaya vila bhadrakali temple
 * (3)Nellikkode Sri Krshna temple
 * (4) Valiyode Madan(now teated as lord shiva) Kavu
 * (5) Kanjirampara narayana temple
 * (6) Nettayam bhagavathi temple


 * Out of this All krishna/vishnu temoples(1, 3 and 5) owned by nairs. All devi(kali and bhagavathi ) temples(2 and 6) owned by ezhavas. The madan kavu is owned by pulays and other SC castes.What i have seen is a lot of Krishan temples across the kerala have been owned by nair sect or families. Ezhavas doesnt have much. They own most devi, shiva and subramanya temples. Though a lot of exception to this can be found this is common across kerala.
 * I have never told Bunts and nairs are different. But told that serpent/kali worship is done by a billava subcaste. There are poojaris, baidyas and belchapadu or belchadas. If you give less stress to B in billava u will get the old name of ezhavas, thats ilavar. Billavas and ezhavas of same race and comes under same teaching of guru.Old ezhava god chiruthey is SreeDevi. Its one form of kali which have many forms. The word kalari is mentioned in Sangam litartures when the caste names like nair un-heard-of. nayanar mentioned in sangam litarature are not nairs. they belong to diffrent backward classes like nadars. Nayanars were shivite saints who also practised a kind of serpent worship. Many of the hindu nadars families in tamil nadu have kali as famili diety though all names append with amman. Nadars called(sometime abusively) the sons of kali in chenkotta areas. What i am trying to say is Serpent worship is not only done by nairs. Marumakkathayam was common in tamil nadu which has ceased long back. This was evident in maly communities like thevar, maravar, telugu naicker. I agree to ur comments on Muraimaman. But that was a right(power enjoyed), which shows thats its residue of some common tradition.
 * Its extensively prevalent amoung in srilanka. So in karnataka, amoung billavas, bunts etc.

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 10:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all i wanted to REQUEST all these people participating in this discussion to concentrate on what i have pointed out.

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 10:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Daya, Your point is valid and substantiated with references. You may edit the article. User:Panikkar

NAIRS ACADEMY OF INFORMATION RESEARCH AND SERVICE(NAIRS)
Link It would be better idea to refer some of the articles here. The site is of Nair owned and says Kali worship is done many comminities in kerala including tribals. For Nair article we can refer this though for other articles it cant.. Link Link Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 07:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That was a very imformative and compact website. Great. Thanks for the link Dayaanjali! Manu
 * Thanks Dayaanjali! -- vi5in [talk] 16:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

List of Notable Nairs
Ok, so I went through the list. It's good that most of them have wikipedia articles. Here is what I suggest though. We should see if we can re-create the article. But it will need to be actively maintained because it's often the subject of vandalism. Vandals like to add their own names to the list. I've moved the page to Talk:Nair/List of Notable Nairs. Leaving it in the article makes it extremely long. -- vi5in [talk] 16:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Unwanted Discussions
The unwanted discussions (caste war would be a better term) have been deleted from the talk page as they have no bearing on the article whatsoever...please kindly refrain from such discussions, which include attacks towards individuals and communities..this is for healthy discussions which may be productive for the article...if at all some personal stuff needs to be sorted out, i assume wiki allows you to do that on your talk pages Manu

Upper Caste or Lower caste?
"Nair" is defined as an "Upper Hindu caste" in the article. The term "upper" is relative. Upper to whom?. Nair is the lowest among caste hindus (Savarna) in Kerala. Nair is below Nambuthiris, Varmas, Ambalavasis. So why not you say "lower caste"? Panikkar

"Upper" or "Forward" status is not just decided by where the community is positioned in the caste hierarchy (which is basically initiated and defined by the vedic people). It is primarily decided by the historical relevance of the community, the current status, economical and social position the community enjoys.

Based on this definition the Nairs were a forward or upper caste and continues to be so where as Ezhavas and below are considered as "Backward" and "Lower" though they are the majority. By this yardstick, even many minority classes like the Parsis, Anglo-Indians, Syrian Christians are also considered as 'Upper" or "Forward" though they were never part of any vedic defined social hierarchy.

Tomorrow, this might change and Ezhavas might also become a “forward” community technically, but will they be ready to forfeit the privileges and the umpteen reservations they enjoy as part of being a “backward” community label. Today, any community should consider itself lucky to be part of a “backward” community. User:Keraleeyan —The preceding  signed but undated.

An unlikely claim with no relevance to the Nair article whatsoever. Anyways no one should enjoy reservation at this point in time. Nairs are historically upper caste and that is a more accurate description of the Nair community then as a lower caste even though technically among the caste population Nairs were on the lower end despite Varmas being of the Nair community. Need more research into origins of Nair's and their sub-groups. B Nambiar 14:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh Yes, this is a likely scenario in the near future. Ezhavas are definitely ahead of Namboothiris but Nairs and other brahmins like Iyers had a breather of late, thanks to the IT boom. Even in the past, the ezhavas had been well off in certain pockets like Tellicherry and parts of Kannur. User:Keraleeyan —The preceding  signed but undated.


 * Once again, the topic of the conversation has come to compare Nair and Ezhava. Please stop this, if you want to compare the two groups do it elsewhere, not on this talk page. Also "upper caste" of the Nairs refers to their previous position, when caste had significance. Today, caste is meaningless in determining whether someone is educated, forward or part of upper class. The articles Namboothiri, Nair, Ezhava, Rajput, etc. is only of historical significance.Kshatriyan 23:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The main article looks pretty neat now, why not add more pictures with the likes of Mannam, Kelappan, Kathakali and Kalaripayattu to make it more colorful. User:Keraleeyan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.15.16.20 (talk) 06:36, August 28, 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there should be more pictures of Nairs, especially in traditional clothes, as well as more information about their origin/myths of origin. The list of famous Nairs should be put back up.Kshatriyan 08:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I support the more pics thing but i wudnt really want to have the list of famous nairs back. The article becomes monotonously long and it will lose its neatness. Let it be separate with a link from the main article Manu —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manu rocks (talk • contribs) 10:01, August 28, 2007 (UTC)


 * It is not the Nairs that call themselves " upper caste " it was the Indian government that designated this. Nairs were sociologically upper caste they were the upper stratosphere of society hence the Indian government did not warrant them reservation if they were lower caste they would of got reservation long back since a so called "lower caste" is always eligible for reservation and the Nairs have never had reservation. Secondly the South Indian caste system cannot be looked at through the traditional varna system of brahmin kshatriya shudra etc. Because in South India both the dominant and weaker castes are grouped religiously as shudra even though sociologically the warrior clans should of been classified as Kshatriya. For example the Reddy's and Maravars of South India formed the upper classes of society and many kings were derived from their lineage but they were still religiously classified as shudra. Lastly the Varmas of Kerala are not a different entity from Nairs the difference is only in the name. I am from a Varma familly and our traditions and customs are identically the same as Nairs. I took the liberty of asking elders in our familly about our genealogy and they all said that Varmas were samanthan Nairs who acquired ascension to kshatriya status and got the Varma surname through hiranyagarbha, this trend started with Raja Kolathiri. The proof of this is 1. some of my eldest 1st generations of grandfathers had Nair surnames like Eradi and other kiriyathil surnames 2. In the past Varmas would marry exclusively from Nair subgroups like Thampi the women of this clan had the surname "pillai" for example panapillai amma, to this day we usually marry Kiriyathil Nairs. 3. all our customs and traditions are same as the Nairs. Dr jayan varma81 05:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * jayan Saar (Clone of Manu). Good try :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manushyan (talk • contribs) 21:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Manushyan, y wud i need a clone when i have an id already? dumb guess but thus jayan varma aint me. User:manu_rocks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.109.87.105 (talk) 04:05, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Everything i said above is a fact there is nothing dichotomously different about Nairs or Varmas. Feel free to check the facts yourself. Secondly your rather flummoxed assumption that i am Manu was extemporaneous behaviour at its finest, you made yourself look rather silly with an assumption without any proof. Because i don't even know who "Manu" is. However if you wish to subscribe to those premeditated notions why not check my i.p address to distinguish who i am? i usually stick to medical wiki pages i only posted here now because someone was saying something profoundly incorrect. Anyway i won't bother posting on caste related pages any more, I have realised that caste related pages on wiki are a haven for insecure frustrated losers to do all they can to insult other peoples communities indirectly in a pusillanimous manner or directly insulting other communities *i won't mention any names you know who you are*. One day these ruffians shall realise what they are doing is very detrimental to Indian society, no one will progress this way. Dr jayan varma81 05:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest, as a student of ancient Indian history and philosophy, it seems to me that- throughout ancient India, there were two large ethnic groups, going by the literary and folklore evidence -- a group that seems to have gone by the name of 'deva' or derivaties of it and another which seemed to have gone by the name of 'naga' and derivatives of the same. The sanskrit 'deva' seems to have morphed into Dev in Hindi and Oriya (lots of surnames/castes there), De in Bengal, Devar in Tamil Nadu, Dheevar (etc) in Karnataka, Thevar in southern TN and may I also suggest that both the Dheevara and Theeyar are likely to be off-shoots of this same community. It may also be noted that none of these communities are either forward castes or extremely backward castes and seem to be hovering somewhere in the middle. At least, as far as the Theeyar, Thevar and Devar communities are concerned, they did seem to make a living out of weapons such as swords, as indicated by their old customs which gave a lot of prominence to these weapons. Ditto with their folklores. Besides this, there are also similarities in appearance between these groups. There seems, however, to be an absence as far as the centre of Indian caste cauldron is concerned - the Gangetic valley, unless one takes the Yadavs to be the Devs here. While that will explain why Krishna's father was called Vasu-Dev, it doesn't explain where the 'Ya' came from or why they are also called Ahirs. However, in favour of the argument is also the apparent physical similarities between Yadavs and the other Deva communities.

Second is 'Naga'- The remnants of this community is also to be found across the country (besides in ancient literature.) We have Nagar brahmans in Rajasthan, Naga sadhus (who do not look mongoloid :-) ) in UP and Bihar, Naidus in AP, Nags in MP and Maharashtra, Naiks in Konkan and Karnataka, Naikars in Tamil Nadu and Nayars in Kerala. We also have Nagas in the north east. As for mention in historical literature, Nagas are mentioned in Mahabharat (Krishna defeating Kaliya - the naga of the Yamuna, Arjuna's son being predicted to die at the hands of Nagas etc.). Nagas find extensive mention in ancient Buddhist literature, especially when talking about Andhra, which seems to have been one of their strongholds.

A rather interesting thing is that the north Indian script is called 'DEVA-NAGARI' and that the word for town in hindi is 'Nagar' and for civilization is Nagarikta.. While Dev seems to have soon become equated with Divinity. Anyway, like the erstwhile great Mauryas of Bihar and Mallas of UP, both groups seem to have definitely fallen on hard times later on. Both are OBCs in most states (except of course, the Nagar Brahmans).

Another interesting thing is that the Arayans of kerala are the only community I know of who have a name even remotely similar to Aryans.. I have quoted all this, so that people who are zealously claiming lineage of kings and gods understand that nothing is permanent.. and belonging to no group can make you better than what you are.. this is not the place to boost up your low self-esteem, and this childish bickering exposes insecurities. so let us go easy on this a bit.. Sreejiraj 16:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Famous Nairs
I have re-created the article List of Nairs and added pictures of Nairs to the Nair article. Please help in making this article better. Malayaliyan 10:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Good work, Malayalian. The article looks more colorful now. However, there is still more space for improvisation. I think the pictures of Mannam and Kelappan are very much required. Also there are many big names missing in the List of Nairs.Keraleeyan  —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 06:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Pictures
The addition of some of the new pictures like for the kalari and chattambi swamigal makes sense. (1)However it will be very nice to add the picture of male attire. Because the Dalawa´s dress is not representative of general male dress of medieval nayars. (2) Moreover i donot undersatnd why Vasco Da gama in zamorin´s court is presented as a picture in a nayar page ? (3) Can´t we shorten the vivaham section with old and new to a more concise one paragraph each ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 10:45, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Saamoothiris are basically Nairs hence the pictures inclusion in the article B Nambiar 11:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Samoothiris are Samanthans. But anyhow, cant we add the picture of the Paliath Achan? He is wearing the typical attire Manu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.38.211 (talk) 07:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Samanthans can also be Nairs, as he article refers to them as feudatory allies of Malayala Kshtariyas which certainly does not exclude them from the Nair caste. B Nambiar 09:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Well thats a nice idea, a picture of paliathachan would definitely be more appropriate for the nair page. As for the samoothiris they are not nairs or samanthans anymore. Initially of course they were eradis (samanthans) to begin with however they became kshatriyas (nediyirippu swaroopam) after acquiring polanadu and vanneri and after being declared Rakshapurusha with the help of brahmanas.It is to be noted that his transformation happened even much before travancore (later venad swaroopam) became kshatriya and today the title of eralpadu is restricted to only one of the samoothiri princes (the other being munalpadu). Samoothiris later acquired yajnopaveetham (ponool) simultaneously retaining their rights as ultimate master of all akathu charna nairs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 13:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

In which case the Vasco Da Gama/Saamoothiri picture must be removed. B Nambiar 14:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Misconception of Hiranyagarbha and dana
I noted that earlier somebody had refuted the claim that Hiranyagarbha was not a ritual of converting a sudra to Kshatriya and that it is only a gift (dana) to brahmanas performed by kings. I therefore thought of providing a more comprehensive information I had. Huge Danas were done in the past to either show piety or even as a means of a sophisticated bribe to appease brahmans so as to get something in return. Brahmins on the other hand performed these either for financial benefit or preservation of their culture from budhism or for political benefits. Of the danas- Tulapurusha dana (donating weight in gold) and Hiranyagarbha dana were commonly used as bribes for either purgating sins of kings or ascending to Kashtriya state. Among Rajputs - Pawars (Paramaras), the Pariharas (Pratiharas), Chauhans and the Solankis /Chalukyas had used bribes packed in the form of dakshina to fire sacrifices at Mt Abu in 6th-7th century to attain Agnikula kshatriya status and the brahmanas in return were protected from budhism. The cholas had used hiraynyagarbha as early in Parantaka Chola´s time as 907-953 A.D or both later in 1014  A.D. at the ThiruVisaluur temple, Tanjore  for purgation of sins as well as for attaiing Kshatriya status and the Brahmanas had gained financial benefit and propagation of vedic religion, Kolathiri used Hiranyagarbha dana in 1617 for attaining Kshatriya status. Travancore had used tula purusha danam. Many times these the dana was preceed by a yajna and the dana was a dakshina. In case of Hiranyagarbha dana, hiranya sooktham from rigveda was chanted and the ritual involved a smbolic travel through the womb of a cow as purification and then followed by the dana to the preists. For instance lets see what three historians/sociologist have to say about the Rajput incident. Dutt R. C., 'Later Hindu Civilization', p.38 about the Rajputs "Everywhere they favoured Puranic Hinduism, and the Brahmans rewarded them for their toil, and reorganized the new race as the Kshatriyas of modern time." Prof. Mukherji makes a note, which is now more or less an accepted view that "The fact seems to be that when a foreign clan or a tribe became Hinduised that ruling families were recognized as Kshatriyas while the rank and file lost their tribal character and developed into an Indian caste of inferior rank." Dr. Ambedkar has observed: "One view is that they are foreigners, remnants of the Huns who invaded India and established themselves in Rajputana and whom the Brahmins raised to the status of kshatriyas with the object of using them as means to suppress Budhisms in Central India by a special Ceremony before the sacred fire and who were therefore known as Agnikula kshatriyas...." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 15:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Quotes section
I feel that the Quotes section is unnecessary. It seems to only glorify Nairs and as a result, is rather POV. It doesn't add much to the article by way of information either. -- vi5in [talk] 17:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It obviously does glorify the Nairs but isn't really POV as quotes themselves are genuine and informs the reader of which outsiders actually witnessed and commented on the Nairs. Perhaps to make it less POV, I suggest adding all quotes concerning Nairs from people of prominence i.e including the ones which don't show Nairs in a good light. But I'd like the section to stay as removing these quotes because of glorification is not reason enough to cut the section out as they do have some informative value such as the castes image to foreigners for example, which justifies its inclusion in an encyclopedia.B Nambiar 17:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * How about this? We can leave the ones that are cited. Let's take out the ones which aren't. We can add them back as soon as we are able to find citations for them. -- vi5in [talk] 02:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds great.B Nambiar 05:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Cited Nair-Ezhava comparisons should be included in the article.
Due to the refusal of the rather irrelevant and misleading statement ". "As per the Census in 1931 of Travancore, number rich business people among the community was better compared to Malayali Sudra(Nairs) and Nanchinattu Sudras(Vellalas), even after being denied government jobs." to be removed from the Ezhava article there should be cited Nair/Ezhava comparisons also included in this article. B Nambiar 12:23, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well unfortunately when Nairs make Nair-Ezhava comparisons even from the most objective stand point-it tends to be classified as casteism or as statements that fuel cast conflict- though it somehow does not seem to apply the otherway round. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 14:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Comparisons (objective or not) are unnecessary in this context because they really don't belong in this article. In addition it is sure to cause all sorts of trouble from overzealous types from both sides. Believe me I've had to deal with my fair share in this article before when all I was trying to do was to make it more objective. Now I'm having the same problem in the Ezhava article. -- vi5in [talk] 02:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

That is true. Wikipedia is no place overzealousness, for reverse casteism or tit for tat. Lets maintain the objectiveness of the Nair article. B Nambiar 05:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC) Nambiar, Please read my postings carefully and consult the contents with History experts so that you can write sensible responses. What I find now is like a nagging women you keep on singing the same song again and again. This is absolutely mean and ridiculous behavior. Repeating lies will not create new history, it can only harden your criminal intent. Being sarcastic and abusive will not help lest you could bring shame to your parents .Being uncivil will not unravel  unknown pages of history. I don’t attack anyone,I just presented some historical facts that are true. you felt it as an attack as it was contradicting with your whims and beliefs. we are discussing about Nairs and Ezhava then you brought in Christians for their wealth. Isn't it sidetracking? Your world is kanjangad,there is much more in kerala beyond kanjangad.You are like the legendary frog(Panchatantra) in the well. You travel the length and breadth of kerala and see for yourself the condition of nair community. I have found that atleast 30% of them are poor and 40% lowest middle class. In many places they are below SC economically and educationally. I know a few nair boys who are coconut climbers. Sometime in 1985 when Narayana panicker came for the annual celebrations of Erickavu NSS Karayogam,in his public address he had mentioned that 16 of the community members were toddy tappers then..!!.His speech was to encourage the community members to shed their past and look for new opportunities. You can check this with NSS HQ at perunna in changanaserry. For Nair fanatics like you Toddy tapping is a mean profession so you like to identify the entire ezhava community by this profession. You get a perverse pleasure in belittling ezhava community. This has been the traditional position of castiest nairs all the time. But for me I consider toddy tapping as a noble profession and I would love to do it, if I had to do it, Since It is a 1000 times better than prostitution, pimping and working as a servant in a Brahmin household and mercenary work.. Who were Devadasis?what does kothichi (whore) mean(kooth+Achi)?These are all terms associated with your community. You don’t feel ashamed? what is the state of your head? You are so paranoid about kashtryia tab and toddy tapping.The population of Ezhavas are about 12.5million++.Toddy tappers are around 7000 people now as per CITU and INTUC records. What is the percentage of toddy tappers? It is less than 0.0006%.Majority of ezhavas were(1) agriculturists,(2) physicians (3) Into Kalari (4) Toddy tapping etc.In the case of Nairs, 100% females were prostitutes and 100% men were servants.Naduvashis could be less than 0.00001% of the total population of Nairs.For you there are two kinds of truths-convenient truth and bitter truth. you are mentioning only convenient truth. And I see a competetion among the community members to glorify the past.!!This will not help project the real face of the community. But for you all ezhavas are toddy tappers!! And all nairs are kings and warriors!! Hypocrisy supreme! So foolish! So igonorant!?.Dont be Cissy,Learn to call a spade a spade. Nairs are Sudras in the 4 tier hindu caste hierarchy.This is an established fact accepted by all including nairs.But I have always maintained that caste is man made and I don’t believe in it.I am just correcting the Himalayan blunders some editors present with the Nair and Ezhava caste. For other Editors. 1.I have no intention to offend Nair community. 2.I am against caste system 3.Thampi- The surname of a person who has a Kashtrya father and Nair mother.For females ,Thankachi/Thampatti. 4.Focus on improving the article rather than wasting on non issues. 5.Ignore B.Nambiar 6.Origin of Nair has nothing to do with Naga or Nayaka.Learn a bit of phonetics and philology before you talk about word origin. same is the case with Elam. 7.In srilanka the majority(80%) are Sinhalese,15% Tamils and the rest is made up by Malays and burgers. Sinhalese are the people who migrated from Orissa and Bihar. Sinhalese language is of Aryan origin and it comes in the Indo-European language family and very close to Sanskrit like Oriya language. 8.The number of Ezhavas are more than that of muslims in kerala.Muslims get 8% reservation in professional colleges as against 9% for ETB(Ezhava,Thiyya,Billava)

9.Ezhavas are a little over 30% of the total malayalee population and Nairs nearly 17%. Muslims 24%,Christian 19% 10.Ezhava migration from srilanka in such large numbers(back calculation) are not possible considering the poor maritime history of East Asians(my opinion).More research is required on this subject.T.Damu has written a book saying that Thiyyas came from Uzbekistan.If he had seen any uzbek or Romanian in his life he wouldn’t have written such blunders. 11.Majority of ezhavas were farmers or farm hands.All toddy tappers were ezhavas.Their number currently stands about 7000  against the total ezhava population of  12.5million++.. Anil4773 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.151.88.111 (talk) 06:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)  Sign your comments!.

Anil4773 such hypocrisy!, please relax, and refrain from personal attacks(I have not done so in my previous posts which goes against what you claim), you must realize they have little effect coming from what seems to be a raving, agitated and evidently insecure random user. Most of your largely anti-stereotypical claims must be cited to be believed or included in the article. As long as you do not add such OR to Wikipedia it should be ok to continue on your amusing tirade, sorry for winding you up so much by the way. Again the claims of prostitution is irrelavant to Sambandham, just because some Ezhava/s claims it is so in spite hardly matters, because it differs from actual prostitution. For your information yes, Nair's are warriors and kings historically, with Namboothiris on top of the caste system, I can prove this. Claims like this: "In the case of Nairs, 100% females were prostitutes and 100% men were servants.Naduvashis could be less than 0.00001% of the total population of Nairs." clearly written in spite and without regard to actual truth and facts. You cannot hide the only objective facts I am stating, that Ezhavas are Avarnas, and that "toddy- tapping is an occupation traditionally associated with the Ezhava caste" (many references), despite the many professions some Ezhavas were involved in, which I guess must be why you got so wound up. I'm perfectly comfortable with the fact that Nair's belong to the Sudra varna in the unique Hindu caste system in Kerala, though I find it hard to believe that(referring to Nairs) "atleast 30% of them are poor and 40% lowest middle class". Anyway no references = no credibility. "1.I have no intention to offend Nair community", obvious hypocrisy there. Please look over what you have written once before commenting, and just because a certain Anil4773 say it is so won't make it a guaranteed inclusion into Wikipedia articles. "But for me I consider toddy tapping as a noble profession and I would love to do it", by all means release some stress by doing so. Have a good one.B Nambiar 02:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Vivaham - condense it please....
Viv, the vivaham section is too elaborate and is killing our article. Could you please condense the whole thing (the old form and new form) in to one para each please. Probably you can also add about difference between pudamuri, uzhamporukkal and veedaram kairal if u want. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.99.165.173 (talk) 15:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it does seem rather long doesn't it? I think I got carried away (I have been accused of being hyperlexic and hypergraphic writing way too much). I got the information from Indulekha and it seemed really good. I'll try and condense it while leaving the essential parts in. -- vi5in [talk] 02:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we can create a whole new article for it? But the term "Vivaham" is so general as to mean any marriage right? How about Nair Vivaham or Nair Marriage? Then we can link it to the main article. -- vi5in [talk] 02:38, 20 October 2007 (UTC)