Talk:Nam Phương

Sections?
is there any reason that the References and Titles/Style sections are not showing up?Kitchawan 22:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Name and undiscussed move
She's more well-known as Empress Nam Phuong. Her original name is a matter of trivia, and shouldn't be used as the title. DHN 03:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * move back to Nam Phuong. Most familiar name should be used according to Wikipedia MoS. We use Bono instead of Paul David Hewson, and we use Ho Chi Minh instead of Nguyễn Sinh Cung. I will get an administrator to forcibly move this back if need be. Chris 01:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Move per below. Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 01:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear Chris, you are quite mistaken. Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother is the best known and most familiar name bur she is listed under Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon. See also Mary of Teck (who became Queen Mary but is listed under her premarital name), ditto Queen Alexandra, et cetera. Please study Wiki convention regarding the dead and former consorts of ruling monarchs, such as Empress Jossephine (listed under Josephine de Beauharnais), Empress Marie Louise (listed under Marie Louise of Austria), et cetera. Your reading of Wiki MoS seems willfully incorrect. Again, why should Asian consorts be any different than any other kind? If there is a logical reason for this, I fail to see it. And to say that you will get an adminstrator to "forcibly move this back if need be" seems threatening in the extreme, yes? And quite unWiki, unless suddenly threats are acceptable.Kitchawan 01:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey, if you want to start slinging around bad faith accusations... What a smarmy load of bullshit you sling. I made no threats, I went through proper channels, unlike you. Your undiscussed unilateral move is contested, there's no need to patronize users who disagree with you. Chris 06:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Move discussion

 * ''From User talk:Blnguyen

Binguyen, While I understand your concern over the Nam Phuong redirect, your contention that WP uses only "common names" flies in the face of actual fact. Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother is listed under Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon; Queen Mary is listed as Mary of Teck, et cetera, all pre-marital names, with proper redirects otherwise. The vast majority of royal consorts who have articles on WP have articles titled with their premarital name, and therefore, with all due respect, I see no logical reason why Empress Nam Phuong, an empress consort rather than an empress regnant, does not. I believe, quite strongly, that her article should follow the overwhelming precedent. I have already changed the links throughout WP to conform to this, so that anyone clicking on Nam Phuong will be redirected to Nguyễn Hữu Thị Lan. Also, anyone logging into Wiki can type NAM PHUONG into the search engine and be lead directly to Nguyễn Hữu Thị Lan, so no confusion will arise at all. (However, re the maiden-name precedent that seems to rule, in the majority of cases, on WP, take note that Empress Nagako of Japan, illogically to my mind, is listed under the name she was granted after her death, Empress Kōjun, which is not a common name in the slightest per WP nor is it her premarital name, which was Princess Nagako Kuniyoshi.)Kitchawan 17:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm not really too sure about this, I'll seek some more opinions. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I can see that in the cases of European names, the kings and queens don't change their name when they become king/queen, and the names are all very common as well, just plain William, Henry, Michael, Nicholas, Frederik, etc so that there will be many clashes due to the numbering and the country of origin. But still people use their throne name, since it is the same as their birth name (just not the full name is used). Anyway, popes etc also use their throne name so to speak. In this case, these names are only used in Vietnamese, unlike eg, Arab countries, where many of them might use Nasser or European countries using Henry or Louis etc. We also do not put Gia Long as Nguyen Phuc Anh. In response to the Queen Mother, you can see that she is not always going to be the Queen Mother, and another person is going to be the Queen Mother at a later point, so her real and royal name is used. Queen Mother is a title I think, like Duke of York and it passes from person to person. Gia Long, Nam Phuong, etc, do not.  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 01:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon kept her name when she became queen consort of England, as did Queen Mary, Queen Alexandra, and others. But Wiki usage for Western consorts is that once consorts are dead, they revert to their maiden names, with the proper redirects. Why should Asian consorts be any different or held to a different standard?Kitchawan 01:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Another observation that might help us on the path to enlightenment. The wives of Russian emperors nearly always were given new names shortly before their marriages. The solution that was determined for these articles was to use the following title: The most familiar name, Alexandra Feodornva, followed by, in paratheses, by her premarriage name, ie Alix of Hesse: Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse), ditto Marie Feodorovna (Dagmar of Denmark). Perhaps this might work in Nam Phuong's case?204.126.250.168 19:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Is the convention that usage for Western consorts is that once consorts are dead, they revert to their maiden names documented anywhere? The failure to use the name The Queen Mother in some form rather than Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon appears contrary to the MoS IMO, and has already been the subject of much debate, see Talk:Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon and the sections preceding it. Perhaps Marie Antoinette is a better example? Andrewa 06:10, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Andrewa, please see this, taken from WP:COMMONNAME: Convention: Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. The principal exception is in the case of naming royalty and people with titles. For details of the naming conventions in those cases, see the Naming conventions (names and titles) page.


 * Please sign your posts on talk pages. Agree that the common name convention seems to be the relevant one here, in the absence of any other more specific convention. The problem is that others have claimed that a more specific convention exists, but they haven't produced it. That's what I was asking for.


 * Naming conventions (names and titles) reads in part Where the name by itself is unambiguous or primary usage, it is pedantry to insist on this form against usage: Marie Antoinette, not Marie Antoinette of Austria. That's actually where I got the example I gave above. The convention that usage for Western consorts is that once consorts are dead, they revert to their maiden names doesn't appear to be there. It does also say There is some sentiment that this "maiden name rule" should be generalized into a convention for all past European royal consorts; however, there is limited support for doing so contrary to actual English usage. This doesn't seem like a guideline at all, it just reports a minority opinion that is opposed to the current guideline. And there's nothing about reversion at death, which was the question. Any other suggestions? Andrewa 03:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

She's more well-known as Empress Nam Phuong. We should use the convention of using the most popular name. DHN 03:17, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm.. I thought so. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)



Please note that other DEAD Asian consorts such as Nagako of Japan is listed under a name which is not common in the slightest. Unfortunately, your reasoning doesn't quite work in this instance. I suggest that we open the matter to true debate.Kitchawan 01:42, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:COMMONNAME. 70.55.88.11 03:10, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:ATTACK. Andrewa 23:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Then Nagako should be moved from Empress Kojun (a title given her after her death) to Empress Nagako (the name she bore for most of her life); care to do the honors and set off a firestorm?204.126.250.73 18:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If Empress Nagako remains the most common name in English, then there may be a case for that move, unless someone can come up with this elusive and much-quoted guideline about dead consorts. At the risk of argument from silence, I'm becoming skeptical that this guideline exists. I think what is being said is rather that there's a cultural practice in Asia, or at least parts of Asia.


 * Wikipedia is not bound by this. But it might be a good standard to adopt. The argument could go like this... If it's the custom to rename consorts at their death, this renaming may not immediately enter into popular usage in English, but long term it will inevitably become the common name in English. So, it makes sense to adopt the long term view of what the common name will be.


 * That may not be accepted, but I think there's a case for it, and it seems to be the practice already in some cases cited above, both from Asia and elsewhere. Andrewa 23:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's a case for it; if the Empress Kojun becomes the most common name in English, we can move the article when it does. But I doubt it will; Emperor Hirohito does not seem to be being displaced by "Showa Emperor". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:05, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We seem to agree on the main points, and I'm not concerned about whether or not there is a case. Good point about Hirohito, see that article. Andrewa 02:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 16:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Mixed heritage?
I removed the unsourced statement that she is of mixed Chinese heritage. Her father was Nguyễn Hữu Hào, one of the richest men in southern Vietnam at that time, and he has a distinctly Vietnamese name. Her maternal grandfather was Lê Phát Đạt, another tycoon in Southern Vietnam. DHN (talk) 08:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

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