Talk:Namantar Shahid Smarak

Questions
In trying to edit the article, I'm unclear on some things: Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 04:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Should it be "Indora Bridge 10" or "Indora Bridge No. 10"? It's both ways in the article.
 * It says "The Indora Bridge No. 10 which inspired thousands of Bhim Sainiks to launch the long march". How did a bridge inspire people?
 * It says the monument is in honour of the "the valour and the sacrifice of Dalit martyrs". I'm clear that the 27 people died as a result of sectarian violence. I'm not clear if other people also died, but these gave their lives voluntarily, or if these were the only people who died. Is this a monument to those 27, or to all who suffered as a result of the violence?
 * It's descibed as a monolith, but it says there are 27 sculptures. Those seem incompatable.
 * What's the order for the list of martyrs, should it be alphabetical?
 * Would it be accurate to say "Buddha Jayanti (the Buddha's birthday)"?
 * I took out the sentence "Even five died in police repression." because repression is very unclear. Did they die in police custody or were they killed by police? If there's another source that makes that clear, it could be added back in.
 * It says "The Marathwada region was under siege with the threat of violence for over two years." Which two years. At the beginning or end of the 16 years, or at another time? Were Dalits under siege, or everyone?

Dear SchreiberBike, Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 12:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The citation says both addresses, so I believe Indora Bridge 10 and Indora Bridge No. 10 is same.
 * During Namantar Long March (in 1978) the Indora Bridge was one of the prominent points in Nagpur city. So, this point is inspirational point to the people.
 * The monument is dedicated the people who died during Namantar Andolan.
 * This is monument has 27 sculptures. Would that be incompatible to call it monolith?? What synonym you suggest then?
 * The martyrs list is not alphabetical. I don’t see any particular format for it right now. Putting in alphabetical order would be nice idea.
 * Buddha Jayanti is the birthday Buddha. However it is popularly known as "Buddha Jayanti" in India. So let’s keep it in the same format as mentioned in the citation.
 * “Even five died in police repression” means during Namantar Andolan… Police shot (killed) 5 protesters . In that repression 5 people died.
 * The Dalits (only) of Marathwada region were under siege in 1978-1980.


 * Some more thoughts and questions.
 * Would it be accurate to say the Namantar Andolan lasted from 1978 to 1994 and the monument was erected in 2013? I think that would add context in the first paragraph.
 * Monolith calls up an image of something like a monolithic column. Would monument or memorial, or even memorial monument work better?
 * Where it says "In response to the Maharashtra Legislature's renaming decision, anti-Dalit pogroms erupted and many Dalits were killed." Was it really objection to the renaming decision, or was it more an attempt to reassert political and social domination over Dalits who had gained some political power?
 * Would it be accurate to change the sentence which says "For 16 years, the Namantar Andolan worked against caste oppression." to "... worked to change the name of Marathwada University to Dr. B. R. Ambedkar University and struggled against caste oppression."?
 * This is a delicate issue; and I mean no disrespect to those who died, but it says "valour and the sacrifice". To me that implies that people voluntarily took risks or otherwise did things to help others by their sacrifice. In American English valor is used most frequently for the bravery of a soldier and sacrifice in that context means the person gave their life to save others or to serve some greater goal. It seems different from people who were victims of a pogrom/riot. I'm not sure if valour and sacrifice are the right words.
 * Is this sequence correct?
 * there was a movement to rename Marathwada University to Dr. B. R. Ambedkar University
 * in 1978 the Maharashtra Legislature approved the renaming of the university to Dr. B. R. Ambedkar University
 * something happened and the university name was not changed
 * non-Dalits in the Marathwada region conducted riots/pogroms against Dalits from 1978 to 1980
 * tens of thousands of Dalits suffered
 * 27 Dalits were killed (5 of whom were killed by police)
 * Dalits continued to struggle for their rights and to rename the university
 * resistance and oppression by non-Dalits continued
 * in 1994 a compromise was reached and the university was renamed Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar Marathwada University
 * in 2013 the Nagpur Municipal Corporation erected the Namantar Shahid Smarak
 * Thanks for your help, SchreiberBike talk 03:30, 7 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear SchreiberBike,
 * I have made first two changes.
 * Maharashtra Legislature (it has two houses upper house and lower house, both the houses approved to rename)approved it in July 1978. On this approval, the upper caste Hindus reacted by anti-Dalit violence( Dalits were victim of Caste system in India ). As a result government postponed renaming for uncertain period. And then Dalits started Andolan by Satygraha, Jail Bharo Andolan  and Long March. Dalits were not in the political power. Many social and political factors were involved this violence. But Caste system in India was one of the dominant factor according to many commentators.
 * That would be right to say "worked to change the name of Marathwada University to Dr. B. R. Ambedkar University and struggled against caste oppression". But I think it would be repetition of the university name in the article.
 * The citation says them Bhim Sainiks (Soldiers of Bhim) where Bhim is referred to B. R. Ambedkar and Sainiks means Soldiers. Ambedkar was untouchable who abolished the caste system legally in the Indian constitution. The name of memorial is Namantar Shahid Smarak where "Shahid" means martyr. The sources have repeatedly used the word sacrifice. Please read Namantar Andolan also.
 * About the sequence
 * First two points are correct. We need not mention 'something' part of third point here as it is already covered in Namantar Andolan article. In the fourth point, ten thousand wrong number. Actually 25,000 were the victims of violence and another 3,00,000 were in the Long march of Namantar Andolan. They also suffered. (please read Long March). 5, 6, 7, 8 is correct.
 * Please let me know if you want to discuss anything about the vernacular citations ?
 * Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 09:14, 7 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the article is really starting to look pretty good. What do you think of this to replace the 2nd paragraph?


 * When the Maharashtra Legislature first approved the renaming of the university in 1978, there was a giant backlash. The Dalit community was under siege for two years. Anti-Dalit pogroms included murders, torture, rapes, burning of colonies, poisoning of wells, property damage, boycotts and lockouts. Nonetheless Dalits worked for 16 years in the Namantar Andolan, against caste oppression and remained firm in their plan to rename the Marathwada University in honour of B. R. Ambedkar.


 * I think it reads better.


 * Do you have the coordinates for the monument? If you can find it on Google Maps, we can put the coordinates in.


 * Names are usually sorted by surname. Would it be OK if I change the list to sort by surname, that is, last name?


 * Thanks for your work. We can start on Namantar Andolan next now that I think I basically understand the story. SchreiberBike talk 00:59, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Dear SchreiberBike,
 * I have edited 2nd Paragraph now. Please have a look.
 * Unfortunately, I don't have coordinates for the monument neither I could find it on Google Maps.
 * Please sort the names according the surname if you think that is correct (The source has listed names in order of name first followed by surname).
 * Anything about third paragraph ?
 * Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 12:07, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Nice work with integrating the references with the text I suggested. I rearranged the last two paragraphs and changed part the last paragraph to a block quote.


 * I've got some questions about these sentences. "The sculptures of the monument describes the Namantar struggle between the Bhim Sainiks and police. The memorial has a monolith to pay homage to the martyrs."


 * Namantar struggle would mean change struggle right? Could we take out the word Namantar?
 * Is the monument in the form of people struggling with police? What do the sculptures show? I think that the monument was in honor of all who suffered in the Namantar Andolan, not just those who were struggling with police.
 * Do I understand correctly that there are 27 representations of the individuals who died and a separate monolithic column?


 * If there are 27 sculptures, why do we only have 24 names above?


 * Some pictures would be great. I would guess that someone at the Nagpur Municipal Corporation might have pictures they would be willing to release to Wikipedia. There's contact information on their website or maybe you could even call them. I've never put a picture on Wikipedia, so I'm not sure what is involved in doing that.


 * Do you think it would be appropriate to add 2006 Dalit protests in Maharashtra to the See also section? Are there other Dalit social movements which could be added?


 * Thanks again, SchreiberBike talk 21:24, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear SchreiberBike,
 * The quote looks adorable now.
 * I have replaced Namantar by Change.
 * Answers
 * According to the Marathi citation the monument is in the form of people struggling with police.
 * The sculptures shows struggle between Police and Bhimsainiks. (the Marathi citation)it does not describe more than that. The citation 2 photograph background shows sculptures of Namantar Andoaln and I could observe B. R. Ambedkar in the background of those sculptures. (But, I think describing photograph would be unfair).
 * The meaning of Namantar Shahid Smarak means Namantar Martyrdom Memorial citation 2 So, it is dedicated only to the martyrs.
 * I tried very hard to get the all the names of Martyrs but I could not find any Online citation for all 27. The citation we have right now has 23 names. (Its very unfortunate). the Marathi citation says "श्रद्धांजलीसाठी स्तंभ तयार करण्यात आला". The google translation of the quote translates "The column was created to pay homage". (this is only half line, if I would add whole line that would change entire meaning so I dont want to confuse you since you dont know Marathi).
 * I have requested Shivashree, the Nagpur based Wikipedian, who promised to provide the Smarak photographs by the end of this month.
 * I have added the Dalit template now.I think this template has all the Dalit Social movements.
 * Our See also section has Battle of Koregaon which is exactly similar.
 * who should add Wikipedia project India and wikipedia Maharashtra stub on talk page? like here. Can you please? or only editors are suppose to add it?
 * Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 12:46, 11 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know who's supposed to put the Wikiproject India/Maharashtra link on an article. I've gone ahead and done it. Perhaps somebody from the project will assign importance and quality labels to it.
 * The addition of the Dalit template was a great idea.
 * Good to know you're working on getting a picture. I have sent an email to nmcegov@gmail.com at http://nmcnagpur.gov.in/ requesting pictures. We'll see if anything comes of it.
 * How do you feel about the article? Is there anything else you think needs to be taken care of? Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 22:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * How do you feel about the article? Is there anything else you think needs to be taken care of? Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 22:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear SchreiberBike,
 * Article is looking excellent !! I hope NMC would reply you with the Smarak photographs sooner.
 * The opening line of our article is "The Namantar Shahid Smarak or Namantar Martyrdom Memorial was built......" from this line the meaning of Shahid and Smarak is clear and the fixed citation supports the meaning. The meaning of "Namantar" is unclear for new reader. (The article Namantar Andolan has the meaning). Do you think we need to explain in line Namantar means "name change" in this article as well?? If 'Yes', please add it and fix Nicolas Jaoul's citation( I think adding the meaning in 2nd paragraph would be great).
 * Do you have any idea how to suggest article under good Wiki article list?
 * I think its time to start Namantar Andolan editing now ??
 * Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 10:30, 13 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not too optimistic about getting the pictures from the NMC. Governments are not often very responsive, especially to someone who isn't a citizen of their city. If I don't get any response after four or five days, I'll try other ways of contacting people at NMC.
 * I think that since the first sentence says "a movement to rename Marathwada University in honor of B. R. Ambedka" that Namantar is OK without a translation.
 * A next step might be to nominate the article for Peer review. I think I'll ask a friend of mine to review the article first, but we could do that. I think our chances of success will be much greater after there are some good pictures.
 * I've enjoyed working with you on this one and I look forward to working on Namantar Andolan. SchreiberBike talk 05:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've enjoyed working with you on this one and I look forward to working on Namantar Andolan. SchreiberBike talk 05:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear SchreiberBike,
 * I have enjoyed working with you too !!
 * Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 13:09, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I wonder about Category:Memorials to victims of communism. The only mention of communism I saw in Namantar Andolan is that they were among the organizers of the Long March. I don't see anything about communists being involved in any persecution. Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 23:46, 31 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear SchreiberBike, Removed that category. Many thanks for your analysis.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 13:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

English translation
Dear everyone, Please refer "References" section (if anyone interested) to learn about the English translations (from vernacular sources). Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 23:07, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Questions II
Dear SchreiberBike and Shudde I moved our discussion from Peer page to link up with previous discussion.


 * When was it proposed?    - 1 and 2 In 2010 during the term of Bharatiya Janata Party Mayor. According to the source they had to complete within 8 months but none of the source revels that why NMC took so much of time.


 * What it was exactly meant to commemorate?    - We already have answered it in the article “Namantar Martyrdom Memorial was built in memory of the Bhim Sainiks (Soldiers of Bhim) who died during the Namantar Andolan, a movement to rename Marathwada University in honor of B. R. Ambedkar.” . one more reference reports citation मराठवाडा विद्यापीठाला डॉ. बाबासाहेब आंबेडकर यांचे नाव देण्यासाठी करण्यात आलेल्या नामांतरण आंदोलनात शहीद झालेल्या भीम सैनिकांच्या स्मृतीस अभिवादन करण्याकरीता महापालिकेने नामांतर शहीद स्मारक तयार केले. It says the monument was created “to salute the memory of the martyrs”. Additionally, the quote by Jogendra Kawade answers it clearly.


 * Who commissioned it?    - We already have answered it in the article “in 2013, the Nagpur Municipal Corporation (NMC) erected a monument in the memory of the valour and the sacrifice of Dalit martyrs.” So obviously they commissioned it.

Five people were killed by the Police in the Nagpur, So I think they have tried to focus their design to show Nagpur Namantar struggle prominently.
 * How was the design selected?    - This question has many dimensions. I would say, in the city of Nagpur during the Police repression five people died. On 10 August 2013 SchreiberBike and me discussed “The sculptures of the monument describes the Namantar struggle between the Bhim Sainiks and police.”  To which I answered “the monument is in the form of people struggling with police.” But later we modified the sentence. I think struggle between Police and Bhimsainik would be appropriate sentence there rather than “and they are shown in the act of their struggle.” I think we should further modify it “and they are shown in the act of their struggle with Police”. What you say?


 * Was there trouble getting the money to pay for it? Who paid for it?    - I dont think there could be any trouble as it was sponsored by the government (Nagpur Municipal Corporation solely).  Nagpur Municipal Corporation is government body. We have already mentioned this in the article.


 * Does the artist have anything to say about it?    - I can’t find his comment. But, I could read that he was honored on the opening ceremony.


 * Have there been any negative responses from the Hindu community or the police?    - I hardly wonder Hindu community would comment on it. Because during Namanatar Long March (this was world’s third largest long March) few Hindu thinkers and organizations also joined it. I think this movement was for the social change, to fight against discrimination and by erecting the monument government have proved it.


 * Has it suffered any vandalism since it was unveiled?    - No


 * What were the politics of the decision to build it?    - The mayor comes from Hindutva Political Party.  But such decisions are taken in democratic manner so I hardly wonder Politics involved.


 * Is it being well maintained?    - It is property of Nagpur Municipal Corporation. So they need to maintain it. The Nagpur based Wikipedian observed security guard there. So, I think it is maintained.


 * What kind of events have happened in the mini-theatre or around the monument?    - According to the sources “there is a mini-theater for plays and discussions.” I can’t read find any event details that has happened so far. But I believe there would be celebration on Namvistar Din.


 * Out of subject. There is one more Dalit mass killing incident by Police Wiki page. (This is incomplete page but you may refer citations. Additionally, an award winning documentary Jai Bhim Comrade is worth watching.


 * Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 13:40, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm having trouble finding a reference for something I put in the draft of the article. Where I wrote "the university’s leaders approved the change". I remember reading that, but I can't find out where I saw it so I can't add a reference to it. Do you remember where that came from? SchreiberBike talk 06:47, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear SchreiberBike,
 * We have that reference. But it would be confusing interpretation if we write "the university’s leaders approved the change". According to Indian Council of Social Science and Research Page 119 "University administrative Body passed renaming resolution." What you say?


 * In Scratchpad you have linked caste system for four caste. Actually theses are four varna. I think "class" would be appropriate synonym. Read second paragraph.


 * Fighting discrimination, he attended Elphinstone College in Bombay, earned a master’s degree from Columbia University in the United States and then earned a doctoral degree from the London School of Economics. is correct. But Ambedkar earned many degrees in his life citation Page 2 mentioning only two would be wrong. I think we should mention all his degrees or none.I believe, we should simply mention "In the early 20th century, while fighting discrimination he became one of the first Dalits to earn a college education."  As we are writing about the education institutes we should focus how he struggled to establish education among Dalits and Indian society. Page 43-53 what you say?


 * Please comment on above answers and answers of 7 October 2013 as well.
 * Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 11:42, 10 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm having a hard time getting this done, so I think I'll try to address your comments above, then move the text from my scratchpad over to the article so that anyone can edit it.
 * I changed to "university leaders approved the change", so that it's not implied that all of the university's leaders approved it, but it stays short.
 * I had misunderstood the meaning of caste, I changed it to "four varnas (classes)". Feel free to improve on that.
 * My thinking was that the paragraph on Ambedkar should be as short as possible while pointing out that he was a Dalit, that he was an exceptional man, that he had a big role in making untouchability illegal, and that the Dalits of Maharashtra and India had great respect for him. I didn't find anything in the B. R. Ambedkar article about his creation of educational institutions, but I may have missed it. Feel free to change that paragraph.
 * I think the next sections should be something like The memorial including much of the information already in the article and above, The martyrs with the list, and something like Reception, which would include the quote, and something about what the memorial has meant to people. I'm in a dry period, so feel free to make of it what you can. SchreiberBike talk 06:26, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear ,
 * Do you want me to search and fix the references in background section? (or you are about to do it).
 * The line you have mentioned about varna is enough.
 * I agree that paragraph on Ambedkar should be small. I will do that shortly. B. R. Ambedkar is incomplete Wiki article I believe.
 * Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 10:54, 15 October 2013 (UTC)


 * - Please do fix the references in the background section. Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 20:33, 15 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear, I believe I have fixed all possible citations. I have added new citations, that answers delay in construction . Please copyedit it with the help of translation in reference section. I think we have almost finished with "Namantar Shahid Smarak" article now. what you say?
 * Many thanks.-Bhooshan NPY (talk) 14:57, 21 October 2013 (UTC)


 * - I've worked on it some more and I think it's looking pretty good. The translations you've provided with the references are especially helpful. As usual I have a question though. Right now it says "The memorial has 27 sculptures of Bhim Sainiks who died during the pogroms". Looking at the picture, it looks to me like there are three or four policemen in short trousers to the left of the picture and about eleven Bhim Sainiks engaged in the struggle, then there seem to be more people in relief on the wall. Do we know that there are 27 sculptures of Bhim Sainiks, perhaps including the reliefs? Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 05:22, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear, We got that refererance from this ciatation. The citation says "On the occasion, the sculptor of memorial Uday Gajbhiye, contractor Sunil Sharma, the creator of representative sculptures of 27 Bhim Sainiks who laid down their lives Ingle were felicitated." You might be correct but adding "relief" would be unfair. what you say? -Bhooshan NPY (talk) 11:18, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Edits 1 June 2017
I've moved the quoted text below from the article to here. It seems to be a comment on the article rather than material for the article.

In Namantar andolan Janardhan MawadeBold text (wrongly written Janardhan mawale)At Sugaon (Bk.) in Nanded Dist was attacked firstly on 4th Aug.1978 by about 2000 maratha namantar virodhi near by villages people.In this Nagpur Namantar Shahid Smarak the name of Janarhan Mawade has been written wrong by the maker.Firstly it has to be corrected and real history should be shown to people....By Dr.Er.Vivek Janardhan Mawade ,Nanded(Son OF Janardhan Mawade)

The original Namantar Shahid Janardhan Mawade Smaraka should be in their village Sugaon (bk.)Tq.Dist.Nanded.Plz come forward to built this Samarak with mawade's family members Smt.Taibai Janardhan Mawade ,Wife and his son Dr.Er.Vivek Mawade.Contect No.9665533671. It requested to contribute for the same as early as.

The names written on the samaraka is doubtfull and the dates of Shahid and name of their village and Dis.not written.It seems to be wronful information published and too many names has been exculded from this.So it has not specific aspect.

This was added by IP address 117.223.0.106. SchreiberBike &#124; ⌨  21:29, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

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