Talk:Names for the Dutch language

I question the merit of this article. The information can already be found at Dutch language and Dutch over att English wiktionary, which is where etymological information is most appropriate.

Peter Isotalo 13:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

There are other articles that have the same aim, such as Names for Germany. I see no problem here.  Rex  14:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The opening sentence of this article which is copied into the Dutch language article runs "Because of the turbulent history of both the Netherlands and Belgium and the Dutch language, the names that other peoples have chosen to use to refer to it vary more than for most other languages.". In my opinion this sentence is very speculative. I would invite the original author or another editor to provide a good reference for this claim. Without such a reference I think this claim will induce a lot of debate; and to be honest, without a good reference I will suggest in the future to remove the claim.
 * That would be me, and if its the "vary more than" bit that's bothering you, I would have no problems of it being changed to "vary greatly" or similar. Rex 16:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * My question for a reference is the causal (because) relation between the turbulent history and the wide range of names. The turbulent history may not be the only possible reason for the wide range of names. Arnoutf 16:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Which other possibilities could there be? Most if not all of the names date from the Dutch golden age trade and explorations and the Low Countries. Rex 17:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You may be right in your opening line, however I can think of different wild speculations: e.g. "the name of the region changed frequently, while the name of the language in other languages did not"; "foreign contacts were mainly sported by 'nationalistic' Hollanders in some countries", "It is all a plot by space aliens wanting to confuse the poeple of the world.". However, I do not know.
 * In general to posit a causal relation it should be supported by one of the following 3aarguments: (1) A logical chain of reasoning which leads to an undeniable conclusion (2) Irrefutable empirical evidence (which would violate Wiki original research)(3) Support from previously published sources. The current statement does not follow either one. The issue here is not so much a "what else" question but rather a "how do you know" question. Arnoutf 17:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I can't think of any other reason than a turbulent history. First you have Flanders being most powerful, then there's the Low Countries as a whole then theres Holland and then there's the Netherlands. I guess finding sources would be kind of hard. Rex 17:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You are probably right; but probably is still no fact.
 * A suggestion could be to write a short section (e.g. immediately after the table of contents) giving a logical argumentation why the change of power from Flanders to Holland may have lead to differences in name of languages between countries (this would satisfy my above suggested condition (1)). If such a section is somewhere in the article, and is accepted, then, of course, in the introductory summary the short line can be defended. Arnoutf 18:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to work something out. Rex 18:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The ambiguity that exists in any discussion/article/statement referring to the term "Dutch" is inevitable. I think the point of the initial sentance is to make the reader/researcher/visitor aware that any use of the word "Dutch" may require an awareness of that ambiguity. It points to the discrepancies that can and do come about when using Dutch/Netherlands/Low Countries/Flemish as though they were clear and precise descriptions. They are not...even to those that have some perception of their use in context.--Buster7 (talk) 15:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This article should indicate which forms for each language are the official translation, and which are slang/uncommon versions. For example, "Netherlandic" in English is extremely rare, while "néerlandais" is the official name for the Dutch language in French. However, looking at the article, one might think that they are equivalent. --208.80.119.67 (talk) 21:29, 19 April 2011 (UTC)