Talk:Nammalvar

Request
I'm removing Varna-based claims in the article as it is complicated and controversial. Also, it violates WP:SYNTHESIZE and WP:NPOV. Whether be it Kshatriya or Shudra, other prominent editors suggest mentioning their caste instead their varna. Of course, Brahmins are exceptions as they don't need to claim anything. Southern castes are almost shudras including military groups, merchant groups, and other dvija analogs. These shudras have revived Hinduism along with Brahmins. But it is complicated to structure them under the Varna label as it has many confusions and complications. Because the Northern social system isn't similar to the South. So we don't need to tag specific individuals with the disputed claim.

Editors had a consensus regarding Varna shouldn't be added to the lead. See Noticeboard. Kautilyapundit (talk) 11:24, 27 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Numerous RS, including Brittanica, unambibuously mention that the saint was a Shudra. The Vellala caste is classified as Vaishya is disputed in references, with calling Vellala as Shudra. Unfortunately, the above para is WP:SYNTHESIS and POV pushing the saint as a Vaishya. -- Redtigerxyz  Talk 17:25, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hey, Thanks for citing a Google book. I know Nammalwar is Shudra. But none of the original works mention that. It is later day interpretations if some say him a Shudra or Vaishya. If we search "Nammalwar Vaishya" on Google Books, many sources will show the results accordingly. But it's called cherry picking whether be it shudra or vaishya. If we copy Britannica, why are we here as editors? Wikipedia and the Britannica are different. Wikipedia has a set of rules for content. For social groups and varna topics, we need consensus. The Varna system of Southern India is disputed by major scholars and historians as Southies are being mentioned as Non-brahmins by modern scholars. Better we mention Nammalwar was regarded as both Shudra and Vaishya or remove the varna label as it is not applicable to non-aryan castes and scholars are labeling them as Non-brahmin castes if we're really following WP:NPOV. If we add our opinion (He is wrongly claimed as a Vysya who are not Shudra.) which is not mentioned in sources is considered obvious WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIZE. Varna shouldn't be mentioned in the lead, as per consensus. I don't know why you have reverted that too. But whatever we add information on Wikipedia should be from a secular point of view.
 * @Sitush I don't know what did I miss here. If you're free, you shall edit this article. This individual (Nammalwar) is being targeted by casteists who wanna tag him "Shudra" with their preferred sources while ignoring modern sources that mention him as Non-brahmin. You know "All southerners are shudras (Except Sanskritised castes) because of 4-fold Varna system didn't exist practically". Is mentioning individuals with the Varna fair? There are many sources say him "Shudra", "Vaishya", and "Non-brahmin". But none of them have originated from original works that mention their varna. These are scholars' interpretations. You're an expert in this section, so I pinged you.
 * @Nittawinoda Is there any original work (such as Naalayira Divya Prabandham) mention Non-brahmin alwars' Varna? Kautilyapundit (talk) 10:01, 30 May 2023 (UTC)