Talk:Nancy Green/Archive 1

Correct death date
This wiki has two death dates. In one part of the article it states she died on September 23, 1923.... and in another part it says August 30, 1923. Which is it? --DemirBajraktarevic (talk) 07:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

FFR
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/money/2014/10/03/pancake-flap-aunt-jemima-heirs-seek-dough/16654599/ ˉˉanetode╦╩ 17:26, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2020
In the lawsuit section, delete the words "by prejudice". 107.77.202.181 (talk) 16:35, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

The term "dismissed with prejudice" appears to be correct in this case. It is not a racial thing - it's a common legal term meaning "dismissed and cannot be refiled". Perhaps a link to the article on Prejudice would be helpful? Drosboro (talk) 16:42, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Done by . Danski454 (talk) 17:02, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Church organizing and philanthropy
Several references, contemporaneous and recent, have variously described her as a founder, organizer, first African-American missionary, of Chicago's Olivet Baptist Church. They are all impossible, as it was founded several years before the end of the Civil War. She was still enslaved in Kentucky.

Also 30+ years before she portrayed Aunt Jemima, so she couldn't have used her "stature as a spokesperson" or "financial freedom".

I've removed those statements (leaving the refs to prove membership), replacing them with the more anodyne "During her lifetime, it became the largest African-American church in the United States." That is separately supported by reference, although quite frankly it was the very end of her lifetime, mostly due to the Great Migration. I'll change "became" to "grew significantly". William Allen Simpson (talk) 07:33, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I've also renamed the section to Religion and advocacy. There's no evidence she had any money for significant philanthropy. I'm also doubting how active she was in her church. In my personal experience, my Baptist Church would never have let anybody be buried in an un-marked grave. William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2020
I was on Snopes and the info thry have for Nancy Green is totally different. She was a hired actress. There was no mention of writing abilities at all. I'm going to do more checking. 208.114.129.112 (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. It's possible that is a different person with the same name. In any case, no change requested. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:24, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It seems the info on this page matches the circulating post that Snopes has found to be false. Is the info on this page false then? 76.126.247.165 (talk) 16:58, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Please feel free to present a concrete proposal (prose) that addresses your concerns, IP. El_C 17:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:18, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/aunt-jemima-millionaire/
 * I've examined the article, and as of this date, there's currently nothing contradicting the snopes findings. I've added more recent information that she was buried in an un-marked grave.

Wording of controversy
Why does it say "discussions resurfaced about the offensive nature of the Aunt Jemima character"? There was no discussion of this. The article doesn't list a prior point where the character was discussed to be offensive, historically speaking. It was based on a real woman, who liked baking. For a controversy to "resurface", you should include when it originally surfaced to begin with. The brand decided entirely on its own to make this change; it was not a result of any discussion about its offensiveness. Antiforming (talk • contribs) 22:48, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:12, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * See Aunt Jemima. Starting in 1893, there were speeches, a year of meetings that went all the way to DC (as the Expo was taxpayer funded). There were polls in the 1920s showing that the brand's mammy caricature was widely hated in the Black community. There were speeches in the 50s and 60s by Malcolm X and others. There are books, and articles, from the 60s to the naughts. Now somebody embarrassed Quaker enough it got them to change. The viral Tik Tok? The Onion? In any case, there's nothing remaining in this article. I've tried to split the Character from the Performers. We honor the performers who did the work well.

Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2020
Change Sherrie Williams, to Sherry Williams, founder of the Bronzeville Historical Society. 2601:240:8100:BEC:113D:820B:E24C:2F02 (talk) 04:31, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Done At least 4 articles say "Sherrie", but the Bronzeville / Black Chicagoan Historical Society site itself says Sherry, and they probably know best. Thanks! William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:27, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Logo and Nancy Green
An illustration has been in the Nancy Green article since its first stub. But after I've been reading so many articles, it makes no sense. All the early illustrations wore a red kerchief tied at the top, and that's what the references mention, too. This is a yellow diamond checked bandana tied at the back. They didn't start appearing in the advertisements until after 1920.

Several articles had written there was no photograph of Nancy Green. Folks managed to dig up a newspaper photograph attached to an 1923 obit. That would be around the same time as this supposed illustration. Her photograph matches other illustrations before the turn of the century.

It is shown on Quaker Oats packages. It was probably commissioned from an illustrator after Green had stopped performing, and possibly after her death. In any case, it needs verification. What should we do with it? William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:34, 23 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Aunt Jemima at 1893 Expo, as depicted in the March 1921 edition of Ladies Home Journal
 * logo on package in 1926

Both match the A.B.Frost illustration. They are probably a "re-imagining" by a well-known illustrator. But they are not likely to be based upon Green herself. She was aged/dead. William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:50, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I've replaced the un-authenticated image with an authenticated image from 1909. This image had to match Green fairly closely, as it was the same image used on billboards announcing her arrival for demonstrations. It also matches the structure of her face from the 1923 obit. William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:38, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Birth and Death dates
The original 2007 post had November 17, 1834 - September 23, 1923.

A birth date of November 17 apparently matched Black Women in America: An Historical Encyclopedia, celebrated by the African American Registry (and cited in the article).

That death date is impossible, as the published death notices were August 31 and September 4. It appears to have been taken from a book, Marquette's (1967) Brands, Trademarks, and Good Will: The Story of the Quaker Oats Company. That was debunked by Witt's (2004) Black Hunger: Food and the Politics of U.S. Identity.

In 2012, a WP:SPA updated them in the body, but not the lede, without any edit summary:
 * death Aug 30
 * birth Mar 4

There ensued a slow motion oscillation, with various editors finally settling on Mar 4 birth and Aug 30 death.

On June 17, 2020, just as a wave of vandalism hit, another user with no other posts, from Berryville, Arkansas, changed the birth again, but in the lede only:
 * (her birthday was incorrect) Nov 17

A few hours later, another user with no other posts, from Tulsa, Oklahoma, changed the birth in the body:
 * (Incorrect birthday, listed correctly at the top of article but not in the biography section)

Until today, I've not seen a citation for the Mar 4 birth. Now Alicestyne Turley, a historian from Kentucky, has posted a Mar 4 birth. That would be a researcher close to the subject, so I've incorporated that into the article as an alternative – but not yet changed the lede.

Turley has a number of other details about Green that contradict previously reported details, such as being emanicipated before the Civil War, and the Walker family leaving Kentucky before the Civil War. I don't know how much to credit, so I've included it as an alternative.

Until we have reliably sourced conclusions, there's not much we can fix. William Allen Simpson (talk) 06:26, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 23:27, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I've asked a couple of the published historians we've already cited for primary and secondary sources. The Illinois Death Index lists her as b 4 Mar 1834 Kentucky. d 30 Aug 1923. I'll make the necessary changes.

Math
Salamat 119.92.95.146 (talk) 12:04, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

That 1909 ad.. it's not Nancy Green
..article even suggested she was replaced around 1900 209.91.118.106 (talk) 22:07, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

William Allen Simpson (talk) 11:44, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
 * We have no way of knowing otherwise. Her face may well have continued to be used after 1900, even though her performances were over. Besides, there's no record Green was paid per performance. She died in poverty. Licensing wasn't as robust in that era. Same problem with Uncle Ben. But there is an older advertisement in the archive now, so I've replaced it.

Recipe
Removed statement that Green provided recipe, despite otherwise reliable sources saying so. We should not promote hoaxes. A physical copy of the original recipe is displayed in the Aunt Jemima article. Its provenance is well documented. William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:37, 27 January 2023 (UTC)