Talk:Nanjing University/Archive 1

Discussion
Most of this article does not have any scholarly citations and is largely colloquial. This school is what in US English was referred to as a Normal College.Tintle (talk) 16:22, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

--- I've done some cleaning, mostly grammatical. I also cut the paragraph below, since I can't read it. Some of it may be worth recycling:

''Nanjing University is a pioneering institution of higher learning with long history and abundant heritage. It is the first higher education institution in China to change education method from "Teaching" to "Instruction", to adopt "Credit System", to introduce "Elective System", to engage female professor, to implement coeducation, to provide doctoral education, and to launch "Generalist Education" project in both science and humanities. It is the pioneer to initiate "Teacher's Day" in China. It set up the first academic research laboratory in China. Nanjing University established many first faculties in China, including first faculty of biology, first faculty of meteorology, first faculty of psychology, first faculty of western literature, first faculty of architecture, first faculty of aeronautics, first faculty of agriculture, first faculty of forestry, first faculty of physical education, first faculty of art, first faculty of film and broadcast, first faculty of modern mathematics, first faculty of modern geosciences, first national university school of medicine, first professional school of public administration, first professional law school, first business school including first faculty of business management, first faculty of banking & financing, first faculty of accounting, first faculty of international trading, ect. Nanjing University also has many other faculties of long standing such as Chinese, literature, drama, history, philosophy, religion, anthropology, sociology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, electrical & electronics, computer science and urban planning.'' Markalexander100 16:28, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps I should explain in more detail why I took this paragraph out: it's completely unreadable, largely because it's in broken English, but also because it's in an unbroken list form. I've no idea what parts whoever put it in thinks are relevant. Some parts may be appropriate for recycling; the paragraph in its current state definitely isn't. Markalexander100 18:51, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

to Markalexander100, I'll try to rewrite the above paragraph to be understandable. I'm glad to take the challenge and I think it will help me improve my English. Thanks for your more help. ---Dictioner 02:01, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I revised the above paragraph as follows, please help me to make it better if available. Thanks. "Nanjing University is a pioneering higher institution of learning with long history and abundant heritage. It is the first higher education institution in China to change education mode from "Teaching" to "Instruction", to adopt "Course Credit System", to introduce "Major Elective System", to employ female professor, to implement coeducation, to provide doctoral education, and to launch "Generalist Education" projects in both science and humanities. It created "Teacher's Day" in China. It set up the first academic research laboratory in China. Nanjing University established many of the earliest faculties and schools in China, including first faculty of biology, first faculty of meteorology, first faculty of psychology, first faculty of western literature, first faculty of architecture, first faculty of aeronautics, first faculty of agriculture, first faculty of forestry, first faculty of physical education, first faculty of art, first faculty of film and broadcast, first faculty of modern mathematics, first faculty of modern geosciences, first national university school of medicine, first professional school of public administration, first professional law school, first business school including first faculty of business management, first faculty of banking & financing, first faculty of accounting, first faculty of international trading, ect. Nanjing University also has many other faculties of long standing such as Chinese, literature, drama, history, philosophy, religion, anthropology, sociology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, electrical & electronics, computer science and urban planning." Dictioner 04:22, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Right:
 * I don't know what terms you're translating by "teaching" and "instruction", but in English they mean the same thing.  This part is meaningless without a brief explanation (maybe just more accurate terminology) to explain it.
 * The "firsts".  Far too many- "In China, NJU was a pioneer in many fields, such as aeronautics, forestry, law and business." would make the point just as well.   In any case, most of these aren't actually faculties, they're schools or departments.   If you really want to put the details in somewhere, you could create articles for each of the faculties or schools and put the relevant details in each article. Markalexander100 07:27, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't know much about the difference between faculty and department in English. In China, there are Ke(科), Xi(系), in English genreally traslated to be department). What I mean by faculty is the field, for exmaple, I mean the field of biology by faculty of biology, since in China the name for it has been changed for several times, the English Department, generally firstly in China's university, was called Men(门),and then Ke（科），and now Xi(系). I think your expessing way of "a pioneer in many fields, such as ..." is very concise. I'd like adujust the items of "such as".
 * as to "teaching" and "instruction", I'm sorry for my poor English. I know that progress is hisotric in China's education circle. In Chinese"改gai'教jiao授shou法fa'为wei'教jiao学xue法fa'", which means change '&#25945;jiao&#25480;shou&#27861;fa'(the traditional teaching way, only teacher teach students, with focuse on teacher.) to be '&#25945;jiao&#23398;xue&#27861;fa'"(The way of both teaching(教jiao) and learning(学xue), with focuse on both students and teachers ).I don't know if threre are right terminologies or not. It was proposed by famous modern Chinese educationist, Tao Xingzhi, in 1919 at Nanjing Higher Normal Institute, and adopted in the whole country. He wrote the articles &#25945;jiao&#23398;xue&#21512;he&#19968;yi(Integrating teaching and learning), &#31532;di&#19968;yi&#27969;liu&#30340;de&#25945;jiao&#32946;yu&#23478;jia (＂first class educator＂) about it. Dictioner 08:29, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think we're agreed- how does it look now? Markalexander100 08:36, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Almost the same to yours Dictioner 12:01, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

p.s. In Background of Jiang Zemin, I don't know if it was you to again add (now Nanjing University) after National Central University. I think it is not proper to ignore his three years at Nanjing Central Univesity; but it's also not proper to indicate Nanjing Central University is now Nanjing University. So I'd like to delete it. The history of this university is really really very very complex. Few people thoroughly know it. You can read the follwing dicusssion of Alumni list. Dictioner 03:26, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Pseudo-History
This article is full of ill-informed nationalist rant, disguised as history. It is claimed, for example, that the origins of Nanjing University are to be found in the Xia dynasty, which was prehistoric and may simply have never existed. It is also not helpful to try to confound a traditional school with a university. This may satisfy the desire of Chinese readers to be told their compatriots did everything first, and better. Unfortunately, this is exactly the same arrogant prejudice which seems to have allowed China to slip behind the West for most of the last millenium.

I personally think it is a wonderful thing that some modern Chinese universities are now catching up to the Western institutions on which they are modelled. In discussing these scholarly establishments, it would be wise to apply accepted standards of scholarship, including a discussion of divergent opinions, a balanced discussion of complex issues, footnotes, and references to unbiased scholarly sources. Educated Chinese readers deserve this every bit as much as readers in the West. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.231.249 (talk) 21:40, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Please close your mouth if you know nothing. - Peducte (talk) 07:11, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Alumni list
We should differentiate the alumni according to the name of the institution they went to. For example, Pearl Buck taught at the University of Nanjing (Note: University of Nanking --Dictioner), not Nanjing University. Chiang Kai-shek was president over the National central University. This differentiation is important becuase theres another National central University in Taiwan claiming to be the true successor. --Jiang 22:22, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

university relations
To Jiang, I agree with you we can indicate those alumni from University of Nanking(UNK)(金陵大学, not 南京大学) if you like. The fact is that, in 1952, University of Nanking(NJU) was merged with Nanjing University and no longer exists. So today NJU regards the alumni of UNK as its alumni. I think it's reasonable. Before 1951, UNK was a Christian uinversity while NJU was a national university, and they were two different universities. Central University changed the name to Nanjing University in 1949, actually Nanjing University is Central University, they mean the same university.

The history of the university is a little complex. National Central University in Taiwan was actually established in 1962, by alumni of Nanjing Central University. So Taiwan National Central University claims it is the successor of Nanjing Central University and it takes alumni of Nanjing Central University as its alumni. It's also reasonable in Taiwan, I think. Taiwan Central University later moved its campus from Miaoli, to Zhongli. Nanjing University also moved its campus from Sipailu Campus to Hankoulu Campus in 1952.

More fact, in 1952, some schools and departments of Nanjing Univesity were separated from NJU and established several other new colleges, such as Nanjing Normal College, Nanjing Agriculture College, Nanjing Institute of Technology, East College of Water Resources. They were all new established colleges and celebrated their 30 years anniversary in 1982. But later some of them also claim they are successor of Cenral Univeristy and changed their date of birth. Especially Nanjing Institute of Technology, since in 1952, former campus of Nanjing University was given to Nanjing Institute of Technology(renamed Southeast Uinversity in 1988) and East College of Water Resources(renamed Hohai Uinversity), and finaly only Nanjing Institute of Technology--East College of Water Resources later moved to another palce.

The history of Nanjing University is really a little complex. In history it renamed for many times, Nanjing Higher Normal Institute in 1915 (Sounds like today's Nanjing Normal Univesity), Southeast Uinversity in 1921 (Now the name was used by former Nanjing Institue of Technolgy), Jiangsu University in Feb., 1928 (Now the name was used by former Jiangsu Institue of Technolgy).

During the war against Janpanese invasion, the Wang Ching-wei Goverment(&#27754;精卫政府) established Central University in Nanjing in 1940, with campus located in the fomer campus of University of Nanking (The campus of former Central University was changed to be the hospital for land forces during the period), and claimed to be the successor of Central University. The fact is that Central University had moved from Nanjing to Chongqing in 1937. Jiang Zemin, studied at Nanjing Central University from 1943 to 1945, not Chongqing Central University. Actually Nanjing Central University (1940-1945) and Chongqing Central University(Today's Nanjing University) are two universities (So in the resume of Jiang Zemin or his schoolmates, I think we should not ignore their year(s) at Nanjing Central Univesity; on the other hand, it's also not proper to indicate Nanjing Central University is now Nanjing University). In 1945 after Chiang Kai-shek Government((蒋介石政府) came back to Nanjing, the students of former Nanjing Central University (Wang Ching-wei Government) were admitted to enter Central University which moved bach from Chongqing, if they passed the entrance examination in 1946. Currently officially Nanjing University also admit the alumni of Nanjing Central University (1940-1945) and take them as its alumni.

btw: University of Nanking (金陵大学) is a university established by American christianity. They used the name "University of Nanking" strictly, never used the name University of Nanjing. While University of Nanjing is sometimes referred to as Nanjing University nowadays. So I'd like to change the redirection of University of Nanjing. User:Dictioner 03:14, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clarifying. We should add the details about the split/relocation during Sino-Japanese War to the article.


 * The Jiang Zemin article currently links to Nanjing Central University, which is correct, but it redirects to National Central University, which is an article on the university currently in Taiwan. Since there are multiple successors, I don't think this is appropriate and may be slightly confusing. I therefore propose we have sepeate articles on Nanjing Central University and Chongqing Central University to describe these wartime institutions. What are their Chinese names? Were they both named &#22283;&#31435;&#20013;&#22830;&#22823;&#23416;? Or where they called &#21335;&#20140;&#20013;&#22830;&#22823;&#23416;/&#37325;&#24198;&#20013;&#22830;&#22823;&#23416;? --Jiang 05:14, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Actually Central University and National Central University are the same, officially named National Central University. I agree that the redirection of Nanjing Central University in article of Jiang Zemin is a little confusing. But it may also confuse us by differentiating them as Nanjing Central University and Chongqing Central University, since Central University of Chiang Kai-shek Government had stayed at Chongqing for only 8 years, other period was at Nanjing, so it can also be called Nanjing Central University. If we call Central University of Wang Ching-wei Government Nanjing Central University(1940-1945), it will not confuse us, since during 1940-1945 Central University of Chiang Kai-shek Government was at Chongqing. But actually the two Central Universities have some relations, they claimed to be the same former Nanjing Central University before 1937. And later after 1945 they gradually share the same alumni association. For example, Shao Tsukun(邹祖焜), grudated from Nanjing Central University(1940-1945 in 1945, not Chongqing, but he was later elected as the president of Alumni Association of Central University in Taiwan. There is Shao Tsukun Academic Fund (邹祖焜学术基金) in Taiwan Central University, and he also donated to build Lixingguan (力行馆) at Pukou campus of Nanjing University.

I know during war there were also Peking Univesity at Peiping, Jiaotong University at Shanghai under Wang Ching-wei Government. For instance, Tian Binggen 田炳耕, who studied at Chongqing Central University from 1937 to 1940, went back home to Shanghai to study at Jiaotong University at Shanghai for a year because of foot wound. But in 1941 there was also a Jiaotong University at Chongqing under Chiang Kai-shek Government. Now Shanghai Jiaotong University also take Tian Binggen as its alumni.

So if we want to clarify Nanjing Central University (1940-1945), I think we can put an attached item of explanation about Nanjing Central University(1940-1945) under the article of Central University. How do you think about it? Actually, under items of Jiaotong University, Peking University, there also need such a explanation item if so.

More, in my opinion, I think in fact National Central University of Chiang Kai-shek Government at Nanjing is the predecessor of Nanjing University, and Nanjing University is the successor of it. However, Many universities now claim they are the successores of it, including Nantional Central University in Taiwan established in 1962 by alumni of Nantional Central University, several Colleges established in 1952 or later by some schools or departments of Nanjing University (former National University). Those Colleges in mainland China such as Nanjing Normal College are only successores of one or several school(s) or deparment(s) of Central University (Nanjing University), such as Normal School of Nanjing University(1952), only Nanjing University is the succesor of Central University as a whole. Actually they do share something. Shanghai University of Finance and Economy(上海财经大学) is a model in oberserving the proper pinciple. It is seperated from Central University in 1932 to be National Shanghai Business School, and originated in 1917 as a faculty of Nanjing Higher Normal Institute(The predecessor of Central University). Now it Claimed to be the successor of Business Faculty of Nanjing Higher Normal Institute, instead of the Whole Institute. Dictioner 07:42, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Currently officially Nanjing University also admit the alumni of Nanjing Central University (1940-1945) and take them as its alumni. If Nanjing University consideres them its alumni, why don't we? Markalexander100 07:29, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Dear Jiang, Markalexander100, thanks for your helpful discussion and contribution. I also learned a lot Dictioner 09:01, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nanking Imperial Central University
Although NJU is a very good university in China, I doubt the authenticity of that "at the site of the former Nanjing Imperial Central College originated in 258. In the 15th century, Nanjing Imperial Central College was the world's largest higher education institution, with about 10 thousand students, many of whom came from many other countries. Wu Cheng'en, Zheng He and Zheng Chenggong studied there around this time." And please translate these above into NJU or leave the Chinese behind important words due to the ambiguity of the institution name in English. You know, I found this page form List of oldest universities in continuous operation which says "It includes universities founded before 1500." and I really hope that is not a joke. Thanks --Koyn 20:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern. There may be different views about such an issue. Officially now NJU says it was founded in 1902, regarding Sanjiang Normal College(三&#27743;师范学院) as its predecessor. Occasionally I saw somebody said NJU was founded in 1949 since it began to use the name that year, and before 1949, it was National Central University. The reestablished National Central University (in 1962, 1979) at Taiwan claims that it was founded in 1914, instead of 1902.

In fact, its history may trace back to Natinal Academy at Nanjing estalished by Kingdom Wu in 258. I's also the result by learning the Taixue estbalished by Han Dynasty in 124 A.D. in Chang'an. It was studied by sholars in the earlier days of modern history of Nanjing University. As the highest institution of learning in ancient Chinese Kingdom, it was called Nanjing Taixue(南京太学), Nanjing Guozixue（南京国子学）, or Nanjing  Guozijian（南京国子监）, etc. in different period. In English, the name Nanjing Imperial Central College expresses them perfectly. Someone may say that they prefer to use University instead of College here. OK, no big difference. When Nanjing was not the capital of kingdom, it was changed to Fuxue, also with several names in different period; the most familiar one is Jiangning Fuxue(&#27743;宁府学). Actually it has been continued for more than a thousand years, with breaks caused by changes of dynasties. In Chinese version, we also call it Nanchao Taixue(南朝太学, University of Southern Dynasty ), since in Kingdom Wu(东吴) and later Jin(东晋), Song(宋), Qi(齐), Liang(梁), Chen(陈), the six dynsties, Nanjing was the capital of southern China kingdom. Most recently, When R.O.C(中华民国) replaced Qing Dynasty（清朝）, Liangjiang Normal College was changed to Nanjing Higher Normal Institute, and when P.R.C(中华人民共和国) replaced R.O.C(中华民国), Central University was changed to Nanjing University.

In the modern history of Nanjing University, some scholars wrote articles about ancient history of the university. A famous Chinese historian, Liu Yizhen(柳诒徵), wrote an article National University at Nanjing Five Hundred Years Ago (《五百年前南京之国立大学》), showing us Nanjing Imperial Central College (or National University at Nanjing) in the Ming Dynasty(明朝). There is also another article Imperial University in Southern Dynasities {&#21335;&#26397;&#22826;&#23398;&#32771;} . In 1920s the faculties took the university as the successor of the ancient Nanjing Imperial Central College.

Such kind of issues may always be controversial. Which university is the world's first university? the world's the first modern university? Is University of Bologna(firstly Schools of the Liberal Arts, and then School of Law) a real university in 1100s? Is Humboldt University in Berlin the first modern university? Controversial. Since CCP controlled China, till 1980s, no one dared to look back to the Chinese ancient traditions. In my opinion, we should not forget our past, the history. We need to look back to see what we were and what we have experienced. It will also help us look forward. Dictioner 11:06, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

First of all, the controversial topics should be carefully dealt with, see Neutral point of view.

Secondly, if you regard Taixue or any institution like that in Chinese traditional education as university or origin of university in China, how could you know the Nanjing Taixue is the first Taixue, or first educational institution, or first university in China as you think?

Finally, as you wrote above, you doubt the University of Bologna and Humboldt University's history. Me too. Whereas, I think you should read the two topics again. Please see what did they write about your doubts.

We all love our home, our schools and our country, but I think you love yours too much more than facts.

BTW, I am afraid that your "Nanjing Taixue (The Imperial Central College, the highest institution of learning in ancient China)" in Wu Cheng'en, "Nanjing Taixue (The Imperial Central College)" in Zheng He and "Nanjing Taixue (The Imperial Central College of ancient China)" in Koxinga should be clearer, like Taixue is The Imperial... or Nanjing Taixue is The Imperial...in XXX dynasty of China.

Cheers,

Koyn 16:22, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Firstly, I think the Neutral point of view is very good. I totally support it. And if anything I wrote here is not the fact, please feel free to tell me.

I never said Nanjing Taixue is the first Taixue. The history tells us the earliest Taixue was established in West Han Dynasty, in Changan(Now Xi'an), not in Nanjing. I said Nanjing University is regarded as the first modern Chinese University. That's true. When Peiyang University, Peking University, Shanxi University were established, they were not actually modern university in their earlier days. The modern Chinese university came into been around 1920s. In many features, National Southeast University is first modern Chinese university. For instance, John Leighton Stuart(司徒雷登), the first president of Yenching University, later also American Ambassador to China, in his book Fifty years in China(在华五十年), describes National Southeast University as "the first modern national university in China"(中国第一所现代国立高等大学).

I agree with you that in Wu Cheng'en or others when Nanjing Taixue is cited, it’s better to add in XXX dynasty. Although for Chinese it's not necessary, for foreigners who do not know much situation or history about China, that's not clear.

Regards,

Dictioner 16:21, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, is it your logic that an institution which could "continue", although it changed its name, its taught subjects, its vision, mission and values many times, is still one institution? What is the key relation between two institutions which should be regarded as a predecessor and a successor? That is my question. If one day historians found (maybe they had already found but did not think that way) anything links between the first Taixue you mention and other its "successors", then one of them could be the "predecessor" of the Shaanxi College, which is regarded as the predecessor of the Northwest University of Xi'an (I also think it is a joke), shall we list it in "oldest universities in continuous operation" and say NWU is the Xi'an Taixue or its successor? If not, why did you list NJU in it and should the Nanjing Taixue be redirected to NJU page?

BTW, Wikipedia English version is not for Chinese only, neither is the Chinese version.

Cheers,

Koyn 17:10, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

What is the key relation between two institutions which should be regarded as a predecessor and a successor? How about your standards?

I do not know the history of Northwest University, I do not know their claims before 1949, and I also do not if any universities in Xi'an has relations with the old time Taixue in Xi'an.

The truth is that, before CCP controlled mainland China in 1949, Nanjing University regarded itself as the successor of Nanjing Imperial Central University. The official History of National Cetral University published in 1932 records the acient Nanjing University. There are more details in Chinese version. It's an education institution continued for more than a thousand years, with interruptions during changes of dynasties, although its names, buildings, taught subjects, its vision, mission, and value changed many times. And it's unimaginable that they keep the same for a thousand years. Oxford University was founded in 13th century. Is its taught subjects, its vision, mission, value now the same to 13th century? Undoutbly they will still keep changing in the future.

Cheers,

Dictioner 04:26, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

The more details about the hisotry of ancient Nanjing University was added to the article: ''Nanjing University was originally founded as the Imperial Central College at Nanjing in 258 under the Kingdom of Wu, with the first president Wei Zhao. In the 15th century during the Ming Dynasty, the Nanjing Imperial Central College was the world's largest higher institution of learning, with about 10 thousand students, many of whom came from a number of other countries. Wu Cheng'en, Zheng He and Zheng Chenggong studied there around the time. Nanjing Imperial Central College was changed to Nanjing College in 1650 during the Qing Dynasty, and the modern Sanjiang Normal College was established to replace the traditional Chinese academy Nanjing College in 1902. It became National Central University in 1928 and renamed Nanjing University in 1949. ''Dictioner 02:16, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In the article University, the follows were added to it's history: ''In China, it's recorded that the education system had been established during Yu period (2257 BC - 2208 BC) and the imperial central academy was named Shang Hsiang (Shang means higher and Hsiang means school) at the time. The higher learning institution - imprerial central academy, was called Piyong in Zhou Dynasty (1046 BC - 249 BC), Taixue in Han Dynasty (202 - 220) and Guozijian in Sui dynasty. For example, Nanjing University traces its source back to the imperial central academy at Nanking founded in 258 by the Kingdom of Wu.'' The early Chinese state depended upon literate, educated officials for operation of the empire ... --Wikinu 04:40, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

-

There really is no justification for trying to link modern Nanjing University to the ancient Taixue. There was a gap of 500 years between the last Taixue in Nanjing (in 1402!) and the modern school. Modern Nanjing was the site of a Taixue for the years 258-280, 320s to 589, and 1368 to 1402. Those were the only periods when Nanjing was the capital (though it was not called Nanjing until 1368, so references to the "Nanjing Imperial University" are anachronistic in any case) and the Taixue is always in the capital. Nanjing is certainly not the site of the "oldest institution of higher education in the world." If we want to count the Taixue, that would be Chang'an (Xian), which was a capital for a much, much longer portion of Chinese history than Nanjing. Moreover, I have been unable to find any corroboration in historical sources for any of these claims. There is no mention of yinyangxue, for example in any of this dynastic histories from the Three Kingdoms through the Sui. It would be very anomalous to have yinyangxue or xuanxue to be represented in the Taixue. And in any case, this has no connection with Nanjing University, much less the Sanjiang high school for teachers which was the real predecessor of Nanjing University, according to Nanjing University. Here I think we have to let Nanjing University decide for itself, and it says its origins are in 1902. I don't have any objection to including some information about the imperial university in Nanjing, but we should not say that Nanjing University is any way the same as these institutions. It is not. (Qitai)

In fact, after Ming Dynasty was founded, the emperor Zhu Yuanzhang firstly ordered to change Nanking Academy (the Nanking Academy replaced Nanking Imperial University after Southern Tang was defeated by Northern Song in 975) to Nanking Imperial University (南京國子學) in 1365 which renamed 南京國子監 in 1382. Actually, each time when Nanjing became the capital city from a common city, the Nanking Academy will be changed to Nanking Imperial University, and on the contrary, when Nanjing became a common city from the capital city, the Nanking Imperial University will be changed to Nanking Academy (with different name in each period such as 應天府學, 建康府學, 集慶路學, 江寧府學... since Nanjing had different name in each period). In 470 when the Imperal Nanking University was named 縂明觀, it became the first school with different faculties and the first school with the role of research in the world (as recorded). After Beijing Imperial University was established in 1402, Nanking Imperial University also played important role in the nation, and the books printed in Nanking Imperial University was much more and better than that in Beijing Imperial University. The Nanking Imperial University was changed to Nanking Academy in 1650 after Qing Dynasty replaced Ming Dynasty. In 1902 the local government established Sanjing Normal School to replace the traditional Nanking Academy. Before PRC was founded in 1949, Nanjing University (with different names in each period such as National Central University, Nanking Higher Normal School) recognized Imperial Nanking University as the predecessor of Nanjing University. So the university president Dai Yun'gui (戴運軌, He refounded the National Central University in Taiwan and He was called the Father of Physics in Taiwan) mentioned that ''(南京中央大學)學統綿延，達一千七百多年的光榮歷史. 古今中外的各大學難以相比 (The Nanking Central University extends to have more than 1700 years glorious history. No university in the world is comparable to it) in the word item of National Central University'' in a Chinese encyclopedia. --Dictioner 17:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Too many Chinese are ignorant about Chinese history after the communist party occupied China and use western culture of communism to demolish Chinese culture. It's a disaster to Zhongguo and the people educated by communist party are ignorant about their motherland, are ignorant about the history, the culture and the traditions of their own nation!!!   --Wikinu 18:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The communist parties generally use their obscurant education system to train people that are hostile to the traditions of their nations and also hostile to such modern concepts as freedom, equality (non-discrimination), democracy, diversity..., which may conflict with their autarchy, at least in the past. -Dictioner 19:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

There are many times of discontinuity for Nanjing University in both ancient times and modern times. But it's different from such conditions as there was a school long ago and a thousand years later a totally newly founded school claimed it to be its preexistence. The discontinuities of Nanjing University were generally caused by wars, changes of dynasties, and other reasons (mostly governmental and political reasons, e.g., discontinuous during Cultural Revolution, stopping recruiting students for 6 years). Each time when society became peace and being in normal order, the school was always restored. And traditions have been accumulated and passed down in more or less degree. - Peducte (talk) 15:22, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Too much historical discussion
I think the historical discussion is too heavy in this page. As a description of a university, shouldn't we put more emphasis on the academic activities, the faculty, and the students? Maybe the discussion can be organized categorically, e.g., in science, in engineering, in arts, etc.

BTW, I just added a Reference section to the article and found the auto-generated reference contents in a mess. Will someone help tidy the bibliography? --Allenchue (talk) 11:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

More about the university's history
History Evolution: Here is a in Chinese showing more than 1750 years' history of Nanjing University, from Wu Kingdom to present.

The article says the university is "supposed to be the oldest existing higher learning institution in the world". It uses the term "existing", meaning that still exists today. It does not say it's continuous, never discontinued. Examples, when R.O.C replaced Qing Dynasty, it (from Liangjiang Normal School to Nanjing Higher Normal School) discontinued for 3 years, and when Qing Dynasty replaced Ming Dynasty, it discontinued for more than 5 years. Qing seized Nanjing in 1645, and 4 years later Ma Guozhu submit emperor of Qing the plan of changing Imperial Nanjing University (Nanjing Guozijian, 南京國子監) to regional Nanjing Academy (Jiangning Fuxue, 江寧府學)[（顺治）六年 ..... 國柱又疏言：“江南既改為省，南京國子監宜改為江寧府學” （《李文忠公選集》 清耆獻類徵選編卷 馬國柱）][顺治元年至顺治七年，清仅仅是恢复了因战乱而废弛了的学校制度，而自己的学校制度的建立是从顺治七年（1650）开始的. 这一年，清朝正式废除了明朝的南京国子监，将其降为江宁府学. 《中国全史》第八十八卷/一百卷　史仲文 胡晓林 ].

This article does not claim that NU became a modern university before 20th c. It says it became new types of modern higher learning school (with learning of modern science and technology) in 1902, and became university in 1920s (first Chinese modern university with combination of education and research).

As to the names used, it's determined by definition of terms. If a university needs to satisfy the conditions, suppose:
 * 1) an organization/institution consisted of students, teachers, scholars (in high level at the time, most students entering it in age of more than 15~20)
 * 2) with education and research on modern science and technology
 * 3) academic freedom

Then, such universities only came into being in 1800s. They may be more suitable called modern university as in this article. The universities before that didn’t qualify are better to be called ancient or old universities. If you say that only ancient (before 1800s) European style universities are universities, then the higher learning schools in other places in ancient time and even modern universities are not universities. The same is, if you say only ancient Chinese 大學 is 大學, then European style universities and modern universities may not be 大學. The above is an answer to User:Gun Powder Ma's questions. - Peducte (talk) 16:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

The Chinese traditional higher learning instituions (including 太學、國子監，以至書院等...) were called universities in the books of Europeans who visited China in the past including Ming Dynasty. Now people and scholars also call them universities in English, examples: ...... - Peducte (talk) 17:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * ...The Highest Imperial University at the foot of Jiming Hill in the city had as many as 9000 students, 2000 of them foreign... (Source: Title Fifteen cities in China Author China Reconstructs Publisher "China reconstructs" magazine, 1980)
 * ... An Imperial University for training officials was established in 124 b. c; three centuries later, it boasted of 30000 students.. (Source: The Encyclopedia Americana, Grolier Incorporated, ISBN 0717201198, 9780717201198 Author Grolier Incorporated)
 * ...At the end of 1433 the emperor, after declining the Korean king's request to send students to attend the imperial university, bestowed upon him sets of Confucian classics and historical works ... (Source: The Cambridge history of China: The Ming dynasty Frederick W. Mote, Denis Twitchett, John King ... - 1988 )
 * ...1368-98) ordered that wooden tablets be used at the Imperial University in Nanjing ... (On sacred grounds: culture, society, politics, and the formation of the cult of Confucius, Thomas A. Wilson, Harvard University Asia Center 2002)
 * Some schools were official, notably the Imperial University and other schools in the capital ... (Source: Handbook of the Sociology of Education By Maureen T. Hallinan)
 * ... printing and library supplies : Nanking Imperial University, Peiping Imperial University and the Classics Plant directly under the supervision of ... (Source: Title Library history review, Volumes 1-2 Published 1974)
 * For a reply, please see User talk:Gun Powder Ma. For the claim of being "oldest existing university" to be true, the 258 AD school needs to meet several criteria:
 * That it meets the definition of a university
 * That it has been in operation ever since the 3rd century AD
 * However, none of these claims has been verified by your quoted excerpts from above; it is not enough to merely point to the use of the name "university" which authors often employ only retrospectively, casually and loosely for these Chinese institutions. What is needed is a systematic and rigorous case of the Chinese institutions being the oldest universities. And even if such an undertaking has been done, this would amount to no more than an extreme minority view (see WP:Undue for WP's stance on that), since scholarship is generally agreed that the university evolved from the medieval university.


 * So, for what a university actually is, see university. For the origins of the university, see medieval university. For the oldest still existing universities, see List of oldest universities in continuous operation. On the history of the university in general and its European roots in particular, you will also find plenty of scholarly material online, none of which mentions the Chinese bureaucratic schools more than in passing (if at all). In fact, these are two distinct institutions of learning, the Chinese ones extinct, whereas the Western ones have been adopted globally in the 19th and 20th century. Therefore, your claim of Nanjing University being the oldest university is untenable on more than one account. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 18:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * First, it says "supposed to be the oldest existing higher learning institution in the world" instead of "oldest existing university". Is higher learning institution = university? Surely not, I think. Second, as to modern university, it's generally said that the modern university began from Berlin University, and in USA Johns Hopkins University.... Nanjing University in 1920s mainly learnt from Columbia University, Cornell University and Harvard University ... since many faculty members studied there, and in the end of Qing dynasty the new style modern school mainly learnt from Tokyo Higher Normal School and Tokyo University. Chinese universities learned from western universities, at the same time they integrated their own traditions. The same are universities in Germany, France, and UK, US.... I also agree that today's university mainly evolved from the European medieval university. But European medieval university is different from modern university. Many authoritative scholars including from Cambridge and Harvard University call ancient Chinese higher learning institution university. Certainly ancient Chinese style university is different from European Style University. Equally, if we only admit Chinese style 大學 is 大學, then what's the European style university in Chinese? - Peducte (talk) 19:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As someone say that ancient Chinese schools were controlled by government and there was very little if any academic freedom in the government-run schools, I'd like to point out, European medieval universities were controlled by church, and many were church-run schools, there were also not very much academic freedom. And I think it was much more free for academia in ancient China (especially from Han Dynasty to Song Dynasty) than in medieval Europe. Now, most Chinese top universities are also government-run schools, and academic freedom in all universities are in some sense restricted by CCP. But for ancient China (except Qing Dynasty..), there were little restriction to academic freedom, unless it harms the Dynasty. In traditional China, since and especially in Han dynasty, there were many movements of imperial university students striving for social justice or political righteousness, sometimes against the authorities. The governments didn't want to bring trouble for themselves, so they generally did not intervene academia, expect providing supports. Now CCP government has the ideology of Marx's communism, and its leaders is also ideaistic authority, just like medieval European churches. But for traditional China, emperor is not regarded as ideaistic authority, government has no ideology that people must be forced to accept as truth. Even Confucius, the highest respected man, were also sometimes criticized by some scholars. - Peducte (talk) 19:23, 25 May 2010
 * While you wrote "ancient higher learning institutions", you actually linked to List of oldest universities in continuous operation where you included the same material, so it is pretty obvious how you want the distant pecursor of Nanjing University to be understood by the reader. Your main argument that Chinese learning institutions were more liberal than medieval universities is not backed up by sources, while the case for the latter having substantial Universitys is. I think it would help the discussion if you make yourself acquainted with what a university actually is and how it historically evolved in Europe. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In my mind, a main difference between 大學 (Daxue, university) and 高等学校 (higher learning institution) is that university is a kind of higher learning institution, and it's comprehensive, generally based on humanities (literature, drama, music, history, philosophy ...) and sciences (physics, chemistry, biology ..., including maths; in modern university) (altogether called 文理, 文 (literary, culture, humanities ...) and 理 (reason, natural science ...), in English called Liberal Arts and Sciences), while higher learning institution may be specialized. But if we take specialized higher learning institution as a kind of university, then university and higher learning instituions are the same, and then university can be classified into two kinds: comprehensive university and specialized university. But in my feel, 大學 is generally comprehensive, with many subjects, especially with humanities and science as primary parts. And there are two main differences between modern 大學 and ancient 大學:
 * 1st, modern 大學 mainly engages in modern science (and technology). In ancient times, 大學 dealt little with sciences (especially natural sciences. social sciences at that time were different from modern days) except several periods such as southern dynasties. In China, main subjects were rite, music, archery, charioteering, literature and maths in Zhou Dynasty. Later generally main subjects were Confucian classics (mainly liberal arts, also related with politics ...), politics and laws of the time, etc, and in some dynasties there were school of maths (school of maths was part of imperial university in some dynasties such as Tang dynasty, and in Tang dynasty there was a school of law in imperial university, and in Han dynasty law schools were mainly hosted by private scholars. But imperial institute of medicine and imperial institute of astronomy were always independent, and specialized, seems never be part of imperial university). Compared with ancient 大學, modern 大學 has much broader range of subjects which are much more subdivided, especially natural sciences as a very important part.
 * 2nd, modern 大學 has the function of research, not simply teaching, and research (especially research in natural science and technology) is a very important function, as important as or even more important than teaching. Research function was not that obvious and important in ancient 大學.
 * If we only take the higher learning institution matching modern university as university, then ancient university is not university. There may be many kinds of veiws. Europe has different history background with China, and the differences between ancient university and modern university are also not the same with China, although sharing some similarities. As regards to academic freedom, as history background is very different, it's a very different issue in academic freedom between Europe and China. In Europe, churches controlled, interfered in human thought, academia..., so freedom of thought, freedom of speech, academic freedom... became so vital an issue. I don't think European medieval universities had academic freedom from what I read about it, especially compared with ancient China. In traditional China, no organization interfered in human thought and academia, except political reason, intervened by autocratic top level officials (such as dominating prime ministers) or emperors (especially in Ming and Qing dynasties, sometimes horrific if the speech or writing displeased the bad, unconfident and dictatorial emperors. But there were also many good emperors in Ming dynasty and before that).  - Peducte (talk) 15:36, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If ancient Chinese 大學 is regarded as a kind of "university" in English, then the article should include it. If not, then the solution to introduce Chinese 大學 is to create an independant article "Daxue" (大學). - Peducte (talk) 16:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I know what you mean. There is "university" as a historic phenomenon and "university" as a generic term. In the former sense, there are no two opinions that it was an European institution (cf. medieval university) and only an European institution. In the later sense, there is some more leeway, since other cultures had institutions of higher learning, too. Ultimately, however, these too fell far short of what the university was (and still is) and has achieved. So, either way, to call Confucian/bureaucrat schools a university is an anachronism. These schools have no more claim to being a university than the Platonic Academy, the lyceum, the museion, the madrasa etc. etc. Therefore, I remove the claim. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:32, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * In the first instance, I'd like you to stop your unreasoningly and inurbane edits. In This article, your edit deleted "originated in 258 CE" and "is supposed to be the oldest existing higher learning institution in the world", and tampered "Its history dates back to the first year of Yong'an reign (258 CE)" into " A forerunner institution is said to date back to the first year of Yong'an reign (258 CE)". "dates back to the first year of Yong'an reign " is not "said to be", its history, it's recorded in the school history book, and also recorded in Chinese Encyclopedia. Second, it "is supposed to be the oldest existing higher learning institution in the world", if you find other existing higher learning institution older than it, then you can delete this content (which is only described in conjecture way). In the article List of oldest universities in continuous operation, your edit deleted the former latter and "To be noted, traditional Chinese higher learning institutions of ancient times including Ming Dynasty were called universities by Europeans of the time who visited China)". I do not know what's your motivation to delete those facts. Please respect facts and respect other's contribution. If you think it's not fact, not true, to give your prove. Please base all your edits in reason and with materials.   - Peducte (talk) 17:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Then, I’ll be very happy to share something I know and my opinions. Ancient Chinese 大學 were different from schools which was controlled by religious organization (church) such as European medieval university, and they were generally much more free in ideas and in seeking truth. They were also different from isolated schools such as Platonic Academy, and they were part of educational system. Generally in age of 7~8 entering 小學 (lower level education institution), and in 15~16 entering 大學 (higher learning institution). There're many kinds of 大學, and among public schools, 太學 (imperial university) was the highest level 大學. The biggest problems for Chinese schools may be that they’re too heavily affected by politics, governments. Western university formed very good environments in acamdemic independence and freedom after the past long journey of struggle against interferential and oppressive forces (maily dominating church). Now, in China there is dominating CCP and its rule. This is the biggest problem. - Peducte (talk) 17:21, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you have links to (English translations of) reliable sources to back the claims up, so other editors can verify them? —C.Fred (talk) 17:58, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The sources are actually given, and in wikipedia Chinese version it's more detailed, and they are in Chinese. I'd like to translate some of them. 《Evolution History of National Central University》(《國立中央大學沿革史》﹞), by Compilation Group of Secretariat of National Central University, officially published in 1937.: "國立中央大學承前國立東南大學之後，合併前江蘇省立專門以上九校而成. 成立迄今已屆十年，然追源始基，上自孫吳之興學、以逮明代之南雍、清季之三江兩江師範、民初之南高東大，皆與本校有歷史之淵源與密切之關係. 茲將其沿革分述於後：..." (in English: "National Central University (NCU) succeeds to National Southeastern University, which merged 9 Jiangsu provincial specialized schools to form NCU. NCU has esbalished for 10 years. But tracing back, from national school of Kingdom of Wu, to Ming Dynasty's Nanjing Imperial University, and Sanjiang Normal School and Liangjiang Normal School in Qing Dynasty, and Nanjing Higher Normal School and National Southeastern University in the early years of Republic of China, all are NCU's historical sources and have consanguineous relationships with NCU. Here they are narrated respectively..."). And in the first section "一、自孫吳迄明之國學時代  (一)孫吳興學" (Period of Kingdom of Wu ), it states that Nanjing National school start from 永安元年冬(西曆二五八年) (the winter of the first year of Yong'an reign (258 CE)). Here's a part of the content available on internet, in the history forum of today's NCU in Taiwan: 國立中央大學沿革史. It's also recorded in other versions of the school history book before 1949, as listed in wikipedia in Chinese, including "Records of Nanjing Imperial University" by Huang Zuo. The Chinese Encyclopedia published in 1983 cites that the university is extended from Six Dynasties and has more than 1700 years glorious history(學統綿延，達一千七百多年的光榮歷史). The establishement of national school of Kingdom of Wu was recorded in books including Records of Three Kingdoms(《三國志•吳志•孫休傳》：“其案古置學官，立五經博士，核取應選，加其寵祿，科見吏之中及將吏子弟有志好者，各令就業. " （學官有兩種意思，在漢代也表示校舍. 就業指就讀學業）). In Chinese version NU article, it says: "依據更名南京大學之前的中央大學沿革史，古代校史始自吳永安元年（西元258年）孫休詔立五經博士所創國立學校，曆晉代與宋、齊、梁、陳四朝南京太學...；金陵非京師時期由中央太學改作郡學、路學或府學等南京地方學府，西元1650年明國子監改為清江寧府學[6]. 中央大學改為南京大學之後校方以籌建三江師範學堂的西元1902年作為建校年份而不再追溯古代校史的部分... (in English: According to the evolution history of National Central University, before being renamed Nanjing University by CCP, ancient history start from the first year of Yong'an reign (258 CE), .... After National Central University being renamed Nanjing University, the school took the year 1902 founding Sanjiang Normal as its establishing year and no longer tracing back to ancient history... ). As for continuity, there are some content about, when dynasties changed, there were generally always intermiting. When Republic of China replaced Qing Dynasty, Liangjiang Normal School closed for 3 years, and then Nanjing Higher Normal School was established. Evolution Chart in Chinese also has been cited above. Seeing from the evolution, politics has been a very important factor in the school history.  - Peducte (talk) 20:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Is there any reason that we would not want to use some of the many sources that exist in English so that our content is not dependant on a wikipedia editors interpretation ? Active Banana (talk) 03:51, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * First, an encyclopedia especially like Wikipedia, is to record all-around contents instead of only one-sided. So, the artilce needs to tell the view of current authority, and also needs to tell all of the history. Second, sources that exist in English till now is too little, e.g. it's highly possible that before there were no such marterials as I translated above. - Peducte (talk) 15:45, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we have talked this through and your claim has been reverted by more than one user in more than one page. Please check out the four volume A history of the university in Europe (ed.: Walter Ruegg) in which a great number of international experts have extensively written on the subject. The very first sentence of vol. 1 already makes explicitly clear that the university originated in Europe, has been a peculiar European institution and that it spread from there around the globe. If you still disagree, you might want to follow WP procedure and ask for a third opinion. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 21:57, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I also prefer people not to be confused between Chinese Daxue and European medieval university. So we agree with each other on this point. On the other hand, the article here needs to tell the ancient history of Nanjing Daxue. If the words used to narrate make confusions, you can help to revise related words. But the content should not be deleted. - Peducte (talk) 13:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Related discussions: Talk:List of oldest universities in continuous operation, Talk:university. - Peducte (talk) 15:53, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

whether the page should focus on the history
这个页面太多内容都是关于南大的历史，居然占了篇幅的一半还强，这个实在是没有意义：

1. 我们活在当下，而非历史中，固然历史很重要，但是过去的已然过去. 我们更应该立足现在，展望未来. 2. 历史段太多历史名词，这使得对其的解读非常困难，我们要考虑到实际上看这个页面的更多是外国人，中国人大多去看中文了. 从这一点来说我们也应该精简历史段.

另外：本篇全文的英文都需要大修改，文路不通顺、中式英语比比皆是，需要彻底修改，部分地方要重写. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fnsteed (talk • contribs) 17:29, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

关于这个问题，我的意见： I think the reason that the article is heavely focused on history, is that the editors till now may be more interested in history. What needs to do next, is to add content on other issues - Peducte (talk) 15:16, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) 历史的部分，我认为写的事情都是比较重要的. 虽然一些比较重要、必要的都写了，但是如果有同样有意义的事情，我认为还可以补充. 但是，如果过多，那么历史部分就有必要单独成为条目.
 * 2) 关于内容构成的问题，我认为不是历史部分太多，而是其他部分太少，比如入学、校园生活、社团、学术、学校结构...这些太少，有的都没有，需要补充.
 * 3) 至于中式英语，如果能修改也可以，如果不必修改也能很好的理解并且让人感觉不错的话，也可以保留. 至于文路不通的地方，你也可以修改.

Advert quality of Nanjing University article
The following discussion is being moved from User talk:Peducte so that other editors interested in the article may participate. "For starters: would all have to go or be cited to reputable third party sources. Active Banana (talk) 14:41, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "Nanjing University has attracted and generated many outstanding faculty members, scholars and people"
 * "Nanjing University is an important place for the study of Western literature in China"
 * "There are 877 excellent scientists with big contributions to science"
 * "Nanjing University was the first institution in the country to adopt student-centered teaching methods.[citation needed] It was the first co-educational Chinese university. It was the first Chinese university to provide doctoral education. It has been a pioneer in many fields"
 * "As the cradle of modern science in China, and a centre of humanism and also a centre of the modern renaissance "
 * "Nanjing University is a prestigious university with great contributions and influences in education, academia and culture."
 * OK. For the specific claims of the above listed, it can not judged as advert quality, the first step is the doubt of authenticity, since in English version most claims have no citation or notes. Right? - Peducte (talk) 14:57, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) There are no sources and 2) they have an overabundance of WP:PEACOCK words. State verified facts and let the reader determine what those facts mean to them. Active Banana (talk) 15:01, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your precious opinions. In some degree I agree with you. Since you added the Advert tag, would you please help to revise those words of overabundance? And those lack sources please add sign of citation request, I'll see whether I can help to provide sources or not. - Peducte (talk) 15:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)"


 * According to what said, the problems can be divided into two parts. So, the tag Advert is not proper. It should be replaced by requests of citation and the issue on problems of Peacock. - Peducte (talk) 15:51, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Why would you use two tags when the issue can be covered with one? Active Banana (talk) 16:09, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * First, the problem of the article is not ads. As I said, the contents (those specific claims) of the article are serious. Second, only when problems including disputations are exactly classified and defined, then we can take steps to solve the problems. - Peducte (talk) 16:32, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Also as I have said, it's actually not a single issue here, e.g., in my opinion, some are biased opinions towards all schools outside Europe, as discussed on Talk:University and related talk pages, and the discussion above about "the oldest higher learning institution in the world". -Peducte (talk) 16:32, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Please stop making claims that this is tagged for Advert because it is a non-European school. If I came across ANY article about a school making claims of "the cradle of" and "attracted and generated many outstanding faculty members" and "excellent scientists with big contributions " I would have tagged that article for ADVERT or actually more likely simply blanked those claims under WP:V. Discuss the content of the article, not the contributors.Active Banana (talk) 16:39, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * First, some specific claims are fact based and with reliable resources. On the other hand, some praising words are unnecessary, and may not suit the style the encyclopedia. Also, translation especially in case of not very good translation from one language to another may generate misconceiving, besides, sometimes it will be misconceived when detailed explanations are not provided. As I read the article in Chinese version, the counter content of "excellent scientists with big contributions" is "有較大貢獻的科學家", how to translate "做出较大贡献的科学家" which is used as a term by a scholar of history of science (Li Peishan, who was once the director of Modern Natural Science History Research Centre of Academy of China (中国科学院自然科学史近现代史研究室))? scientists with biggish contribution? As for "the cradle of modern science in China", there are many resouces, e.g., 俨然成为南方之学术重镇与"近代中国科学的摇篮" in the paper 郭秉文的大学理念及其实践探析 on Journal of Jimei University (Vol. 6 No.2 Jun.2005 ) by Zhang Yaqun and Deng Yuemin. As for inane comments like "attracted and generated many outstanding faculty members", they can be kept by using as briefing words, be revised, or be deleted if they give readers pretentious sense since they may be dispensable words. - Peducte (talk) 17:02, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

In Chinese version there are more notes and citations on some key contents. So many notes and citations can be available through translation. - Peducte (talk) 15:51, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

One should not become the victim of ignorance (nescience) of others
I see that Assuming good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia. I think now to add the tag advert here is Assuming bad faith instead of good faith, and it's offensive. When a person has doubts on authenticity of specific contents including claims of articles, he or she should first study and examine whether the contents are reliable nor not, including discussing with well-read persons on the topics, instead of claiming it's ads in the first place. One should not become the victim of another's ignorance (nescience). As discussed above, many contents doubted by persons who are unfamiliar with them are actually based on facts and have reliable sources, although notes or citations may not be provided. On the other hand, I'm also not very sure such words like "Nanjing University is an important place for the study of Western literature in China" are proper or not, just like we say "Harvard University is an important place for Chinese study in USA" (due to Harvard-Yenching Institute) or "Hopkins University is an important university in dedications to the development of China-USA relationship" (due to Hopkins Nanjing Center) in Chinese version. Maybe, on Wikipedia such claims are redundant although they are not wrong, and it's better to go directly to specific facts instead of inane claims. As to the tag globalize, I disagree with specific contents. Specifically speaking, claims like "Nanjing University has attracted and generated many outstanding faculty members, scholars and people" should be globalized by adding "in China", since as we know, in recent centuries, most of most outstanding scientists have been from Europe and America. However, as to claims like "the oldest existing higher learning institution in the world", they are already globalized claims. - Peducte (talk) 15:52, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

The University of Nanking
The main problem with this article on Nanjing University is that it completely ignores the fact that the school's main campus still occupies the exact same location and buildings which were once known as the University of Nanking, a school founded by Christian missionaries. The article in its present state does represent a completely one-sided Chinese nationalist viewpoint which intentionally seeks to erase the positive contribution Christian missionaries from Western countries made to the establishment of the modern higher education system in China. This is an issue which I previously confronted when researching a book I published about the history of Nanjing back in 2004. Therefore, I am copying a relevant excerpt from that book here:

The University of Nanking (Jinling Daxue)

[Excerpt from Eric N. Danielson (2004), Nanjing and the Lower Yangzi, Singapore: Marshall Cavendish.]

Across the street from the Drum Tower (Gu Lou) traffic circle on Beijing Xi Lu still stand some of the original buildings which comprised the University of Nanking (Jinling Daxue). The campus actually covers a huge area stretching from Guangzhou Lu in the south to Beijing Xi Lu in the north, and is divided in half by Hankou Lu running from east to west. This school was formed in 1910 through the merger of three colleges established earlier by Christian missionaries, including the Methodist Nanking University founded in 1888 by John C. Ferguson. In 1911 the school was granted a charter by the State University of New York (SUNY). By 1914 the campus covered 70 acres of land, and included three dormitories, three lecture halls, a science hall, a chapel, a YMCA, a hospital, and 13 faculty houses. In 1915 a school of agriculture and forestry was opened under Professor Joseph Bailie. The campus’ main administration-library building, Severance Hall, was built in 1919.

By 1925 the school had an enrollment of 293 students, with 27 full-time foreign faculty and a library collection of 67,000 volumes which was by far the largest of any of the dozen missionary universities in China. By 1935 the urban campus had grown to 110 acres, and a 120 acre Agricultural Experimentation Station, known colloqiuouly as “Bailie’s Farm,” had been established outside the city at the northwestern foot of Zijin Shan. There were two chapels, the first one was Sage Memorial Chapel, later supplemented with the Paul D. Twinem Memorial Chapel. The architecture was in the neo-classical Chinese renaissance style also used for the buildings of nearby Ginling College. By March 1935 the library had a collection of 194,253 books, including 23,812 volumes in Western languages.

John Leighton Stuart was president of the University of Nanking from 1916 to 1918, when he was appointed president of Peking-Yenching University in Beijing, a post he held until 1946 when he became U.S. Ambassador to China until 1949. Stuart was replaced as president in 1918 by Arthur J. Bowen. John E. Williams, who had been appointed the school’s very first vice-president at the time of its founding in 1910 continued to serve in this role until March 1927, when he was executed by Chinese soldiers during the Guomindang’s occupation of the city. The events of 1927, coming after several years of public pressure known as the “Educational Rights Recovery Movement,” finally forced the appointment of the university’s first Chinese president, Y.G. Chen (Chen Yu Guan), who formally replaced Arthur J. Bowen in May 1928.

Much like Ginling College, the University of Nanking seems to have had a fairly close relationship with the Guomindang central government. The annual commencement ceremonies featured three minutes of silent prayer before a portrait of Sun Zhong Shan, founder of the Guomindang party. The 1934 commencement was attended by Sun Fo, the son of Sun Zhong Shan and then the President of the Legislative Yuan. In 1936 President Jiang Jie Shi visited the campus, joined by the heads of the Examination Yuan (Kaoshi Yuan) and the Guomindang party students organization. In fact, the Guomindang's long-serving military chief of staff General He Ying Qin lived in a house on the university's campus. Although the original one was destroyed during the Japanese occupation of the city, he rebuilt it after the war and it is still there now, serving as the university's Foreign Affairs Office.

In November 1937 the faculty and students retreated to Chengdu, just prior to the Japanese attack on Nanjing. During the first few months of the Japanese occupation of the city, the university campus served as neutral territory for refugees, much like Ginling College did. At that time it is said that the university’s hospital was the only one functioning in the entire city.

The faculty returned to the Nanjing campus in May 1946. During the war the collaborationist regime of Wang Jing Wei had used the main quadrangle buildings for their own Central University, but the faculty houses had been occupied by the Japanese military. The chapel had been used as a warehouse. The original library collection of 440,000 volumes had been looted.

Although it had previously had a close relationship with the Guomindang government, the student body became affected by rising dissatisfaction with the regime in the immediate post-war years. In 1947 University of Nanking students went on strike in sympathy wih those who were striking at the government run National Central University (Guoli Zhongyang Daxue).

After the April 1949 Communist capture of Nanjing, the university continued to maintain its Christian atmosphere and missionary management for some time. The 1949 commencement was held with a church choir in attendance, and on December 24, 1949 a Christmas party was held, complete with a manger nativity scene and a religious play about the Four Wise Men performed by students. The very last commencement ceremony held under missionary management was that of July 3, 1950. The administration of the school was taken over by government authorities in early 1951, when foreign missionary organizations were prohibited from operating in China, and all remaining foreign faculty left at that time. The name of the school was changed to Nanjing University (Nanjing Daxue), under which it continues to function today.

Although nearly all the original buildings have survived, it is unfortunate that Nanjing University follows the example of Nanjing Normal University (Nanjing Shifan Daxue) in denying its Western missionary heritage and instead insists on promoting the lie that its origins can be traced to the San Jiang College founded by Zhang Zhi Dong in 1902. The university’s official history makes absolutely no mention of the missionaries founding, construction, and management of the school from 1911 to 1951, and the school’s coat of arms prominently displayed everywhere carries the date 1902. All evidence that would testify to this has been carefully cleansed from the buildings and campus.

Today most of the surviving historic buildings stand in the half of campus north of Hankou Lu, although there are three historic buildings in the southern half as well. Historic houses where the foreign faculty members formerly lived can be found on both sides of tree-lined Hankou Lu.

Heading north from Hankou Lu a walk up Zhong Da Lu leads you past a two-story Spanish Colonial house on your left, and a small one-story red brick hall with upturned roof eaves on the right that was once the Twinem Memorial Chapel. The chapel was named after Paul D. Twinem, a former faculty member at the univerdsity. Outside it is an iron bell hanging from a wooden frame. The bell is inscribed “Weneely N.V.,” possibly providing a clue to where it was made.

North of the chapel pathways lead to the main quadrangle of historic buildings and a smaller one on its west side. At the north end of the main quadrangle is the two-story former Severance Hall with its five-story tower. This hall originally served as the combined administration-library building. A foundation stone in the southwest corner still bears the date 1919. Inside the first floor lobby the original chandelier still hangs from a coffered ceiling colorfully painted with a Phoenix pattern. The stairwells on either side bear a total of four sets of stone Chinese inscriptions embedded in the walls that have been covered up with thick white paint to make them illegible. The two-story hall on the western side of the main quadrangle was formerly the Joseph Bailie Agricultural Hall and has a foundation stone in its southeast corner bearing the date 1925. The two-story hall on the eastern side of the main quadrangle has no visible cornerstone, but was formerly the Swasey Science Hall. Inside its entrance lobby a curious relic has survived in the form of a round, bronze, Western astrological calendar embedded in the floor.

West of this main quad is a second smaller one surrounded by a collection of historic halls that were the university’s original dormitories. The larger of the university’s two chapels, the two-story brick Sage Memorial Chapel built about 1920, once stood in the center of this smaller quadrangle, but now seems to have disappeared.

The university’s History Department has an Exhibition Hall for Cultural Relics. Phone ahead for anappointment. (025) 8359-3512. Address: Gu Lou, Beijing Xi Lu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by YangziMan (talk • contribs) 22:08, 13 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Nanjing University and the University of Nanking were two different universities before 1952, and in that year the latter (mainly departments of liberal arts and sciences) was merged into Nanjing university. The relationship is similar to that between Peking University and Yenching University, or between Sun Yat-sen University and Lingnan University. NU was the largest universiy (with most majors/departments) in China before, but itself only remained about 1/3 of its total departments, and more than ten new independant colleges/universities were established based on departments of NU along with others during the adjustments in 1952. - Leekelin (talk) 12:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * In addition, in the history of Nanjing University, 8 schools/universities (including Technological University, Law and Political University in Nanjing, Medical University in Suzhou and Commerece University in Shanghai, ect.) joined National Southeastern University to found National Central University. - Leekelin (talk) 13:02, 2 October 2011 (UTC)