Talk:Naperville, Illinois/Archive 1

"Naper-thrill"
I took this line out of its place at the very end of the very first paragraph of this article: "It is ironically referred to as "Naper-thrill" due to it being considered the ultimate suburbia, which some find undesirable."

1) This seems to be just another a cute nickname people commonly make up for their respective Chicago suburb (eg "Action Heights" for Arlington Heights or "Rose-hell" for Roselle.) 2) Is there a verifiable, published source that would support the contention that Naperville is popularly "considered the ultimate suburbia"? Honestly, Naperville is just like any other suburb; this seems like puffery disguised as some kind of odd Chicagoland brand of modesty.

Neighborhoods
This article talks about people of Naperville having a strong tie to thier neighborhood. Can anyone describe some of these neighborhoods? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GinaLe (talk • contribs).
 * The article did have such a thing yes. Some neighborhoods have stronger homeowner's associations than others, and there is a formal alliance of homeowner's associations. However, apart from those facts, "strong ties" have never really been documented as such, and so I removed the section as a violation of WP:OR and being unverifable. --JohnDBuell 15:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Picture
Could someone with photo editing software make the new pic smaller? It's crowding out the text from the page. Thesquire 06:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, could someone with a camera go TAKE a photo that they wouldn't mind uploading under GFDL or releasing to Public Domain? Thanks. --JohnDBuell 19:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * A photo of what exactly? I can get a few shots if needed... --SaGR 00:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Started this myself, images are going up on commons, for reuse here or other projects. --JohnDBuell 22:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Games
Is it worth mentioning that there have been at least three "opoly" style games about Naperville, published by various companies? The "Heritage of Naperville" game was published by Milco of Oshkosh, WI, in 1982, and featured a number of businesses local to or headquartered in Naperville. There was a second such board in the 1990s, but alas, I don't have a copy. Most recently, the Edward Hospital Foundation, along with the company Help On Board, published "Naperville On Board" (which can be seen at napervilleonboard.org), and again features sponsored spaces by area businesses. In this latter case, proceeds from sales of the game go to the Edward Hospital Foundation. --JohnDBuell 03:20, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Famous residents?
Are there any worth mentioning?

Plenty. Just look at the list. Just because they don't have their own file yet on Wikipedia doesn't mean they don't belong. Those working for TV or radio stations are easy to verify.

Bob Odenkirk
He was already included in the main article when I restructured this section "Famous residents?" -- Wiki_surfer_BCR at the German wikipedia. --131.225.243.122

Robert B. Zoellick
Robert Bruce Zoellick, Deputy Secretary of State, confirmed by the Senate on February 16, 2005, sworn in on February 22, 2005, was raised in Naperville, Illinois. E.g. see his biography at the U.S. Department of State of State site. Was here born at Naperville, as is stated in the English Wikipedia? -- Wiki_surfer_BCR at the German wikipedia. 68.77.16.23 08:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keine Ahnung. Wir Illinois-bewohner hören öfters nicht von den "Under Secretaries" oder "Deputy Secretaries." Patrick Quinn, "Lieutenant Governor" ist eine Ausnahme. (Translating: I don't know. We Illinois residents don't hear much from "Under Secretaries" or "Deputy Secretaries." Lieutenant Governor Pat Quinn is an exception). - In other words, I don't know how "famous" or "notable" he is - Blagojevich, Quinn, Madigan (Lisa AND her dad Michael), Jesse White, etc. get a lot more press coverage within the state - this makes me reluctant to include him. --JohnDBuell 13:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Robert B. Zoellick apperantly finds some interest in the German wikipedia, see de:Robert Zoellick, an article that is linked in about 15 other articles. This interest may be in part also due to his German ancestry. @JohnDBull would you like to take a look at the article de:Robert Zoellick? To me it looked a bit patchy and outdated. I've already put some links to biographic data onto the talk page. -- Wiki_surfer_BCR --131.225.243.122 22:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Heh. I entirely misread Deputy Secretary of State as being the Illinois Deputy Secretary of State, instead of the federal level. Judging by age and year he graduated college, he should be in a Naperville Central High School yearbook of about 1970/1971. This could be verified by a trip to the Nichols Library in downtown Naperville. It still would not prove place of birth though, someone would have to request birth certificates for that. --JohnDBuell 22:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Confirmed. NCHS Class of 1971, just after Naperville North was built and the Naperville Community High School was reorganized as Naperville Central. Former student council president, cross country runner.... --JohnDBuell 17:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Peter Stenger
in the German wikipedia: de:Peter Stenger (* 3. Januar 1792 in de:Geiselbach, de:Landkreis Aschaffenburg (de:Unterfranken), † 14. Juni 1874 in de:Naperville), war ein Bierbrauer und Unternehmer (engl. brewer and buisnessman). --Wiki surfer bcr 21:07, 7. Dez. 2006 (CET) Apparently he was the founder of Stenger Brewery mentioned at Illinois_beer_and_breweries Stenger Brewery, also known as J and N Stenger Brewery, Naperville, founded in 1848, closed in 1893, but the initials don't match, maybe his sons? It would be great if we could learn more about Peter Stenger and the (J and N) Stenger Brewery in Naperville. --Wiki surfer bcr --131.225.243.122 22:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Your guesses are correct. John and Nicholas (J and N Stenger) continued the brewery, and John ran it alone after Nicholas's death. The brewery's biggest claim to fame appears to be having given one Adolph Coors (a now-Colorado family VERY well known in the US) early work experience as the brewery's foreman. See http://www.breweriana.com/history/historyilstenger.html --JohnDBuell 22:16, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Would seem this should be included, most listings are more recent and living people on the current list. The Brewery was a major business at the time.Kidsheaven 22:01, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Evan F. Lysacek
Evan Frank Lysacek (born June 4, 1985) is an American figure skater. Lysacek was born in Chicago, Illinois and raised in Naperville, Illinois. His mother, Tanya, is a substitute teacher in Naperville and his father, Don, is a building contractor. His fourth place at the XX. Olympic Winter Games 2006 and his third places at the Worldchampionships 2005 and 2006, also earned him an article in the German wikipedia de:Evan_Lysacek. --Wiki surfer bcr --131.225.243.122 22:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, he should be in high school yearbooks of about 2002-2003, which could be confirmed at the library. --JohnDBuell 22:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Confirmed. NVHS class of 2003. --JohnDBuell 17:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Naperville Riverwalk
It would be great if someone could spend some time to create a wiki page on the Naperville Riverwalk. It has become a Naperville and Chicagoland landmark. The wiki link is in place, but there is no page.--H.al-shawaf 04:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Congressional District?
What congressional district is Naperville in? --pie4all88 10:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * At least part of the city is in District 13 (currently held by Judy Biggert). But I don't know how MUCH of the city is in which district, and if the city is, in fact, divided between districts. --JohnDBuell 01:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, ok--thanks, John. --pie4all88 20:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Too Positive
This is an almost boosterish article. It fails to mention, for example, that "Naperville" is almost a byword for suburban hell here in Chicago. It sums up everything that city people and north shore types detest about the burbs. In that regards, it is the paradigmatic suburb of Chicago, for both bad and good.

Tell me more about the above. Is this town progressive or conservative? Restrictive or relaxed? What are the surburban hell aspects? This town is listed as one of the 'best walking cities' but one of the aspects of suburban hell (as I see it) is a place where you drive everywhere - a place unfriendly to walkers. I love Chicago (although I do not live there) so I am curious to learn more about Naperville from a non-booster view. 1. Too much trafic 2. Housing costs are high 3. Parking hard to find downtown 4. If a indoor Park District facility (Health Club or something like) should be built or not, and should voters have a say or not. 5. School locations 6. taxes 7. NIMBY type complaints 8. Small town has become too large
 * The Riverwalk downtown is very popular. Complaints are some of the following:
 * It is a very Republican city - local officials are not in parties a city level, but no Democrats win any elections against a Republican.
 * Most areas have sidewalks, and the town has the two most used Metra Stations (commuter train system), outside of the Chicago Loop.

Note this is all POV, and not from a third party source direct, though most of this is from reading local newspapers or direct comments (original research) and thus not allowable for the main page. Naperville is not Utopia... Kidsheaven 21:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You forgot "parking on Washington Street" - which is the main north-south thoroughfare through the downtown area. Parking is still permitted on Washington during weekends and from (I think) 9-4 weekdays. All parking is free, regardless of where you park. The downtown area has exploded in popularity in the last decade. One comment that makes the Naperville Sun from time to time is that there are "too many restaurants" in the downtown area (and something like 4-5 Starbucks if you include the one IN the Barnes & Noble).
 * Things that CAN be verified: Conflict between the Park District and residents for an indoor recreational facility has been covered in the Sun. Tearing down of older homes and replacing them with newer and much more expensive structures has been covered in the Sun. The Arlington Heights-based Daily Herald might also have some of this information. School locations and boundaries are mostly a "western Naperville" issue, as District 204 continues to grow. District 203, serving the center part of Naperville, has maxed out in space and enrollment (these too have been covered by the papers).
 * Political parties only play a role in county offices and higher (County Board members serving districts, Sheriff, etc.) City officials, Park District Board members, and School Board members are non-partisan elections. And all of DuPage County is very Republican still, not just Naperville.
 * There's also some usually snobbishness, usually from Lake County residents (old money) against DuPage County residents (largely new money). But that's more difficult to verify/quantify. HTH anyone trying to do additional research - do note that some of the complaints about School District 204 are covered in that article already. --JohnDBuell 22:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Naperville (Illinois) in the German Wikipedia
I recently created the article de:Naperville_(Illinois) in the German Wikipedia. I would like to invite people to have a look at the article and the talk page (german: Diskussion) for fact checking and suggestions. @JohnDBuell, I've seen that you already made a small correction, thanks. More is well come.

Any information about early Naperville citizens (farmers, shopkeepers, bakers, butchers, black smiths, ...) who immigrated from Germany (see above, Peter Stenger) or famous present-day residents with German Ancestry (see above, Robert Zoellick) would be of special interest.

By the way, the last name of the Naperville Mayor, Pradel, sounds Austrian or South German to me. Is there indeed such an ancestral connection?

--Wiki surfer bcr --131.225.243.122 22:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no idea. He's best known for being "Officer Friendly" on the Naperville Police Force until his retirement (and when he ran for mayor, many joked that he'd be "Mayor Friendly") - the role is that of a police officer sent to schools and public events to distribute and speak about issues such as public safety. In the early 1980s I recall him visiting Elmwood Elementary School speaking about Bicycle safety. His staff could be reached through the office of the mayor. --JohnDBuell 17:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I am starting to build up a category of photographs on Wikimedia Commons, with reusable photos from the city. See --JohnDBuell 22:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The public libraries' online reference service also provided altitude above sea level, which I noticed was missing in the de: article. I'll add it momentarily. The city is 693 feet/211 meters above sea level. --JohnDBuell 23:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * About 1/2 of the town was German immigrants at one time. SS. Peter and Paul Church built (1926-1927) one corner stone side is in German the other English.  Parish history states the stained glass windows came from Germany and/or Austria.  Don't know if there is a source that meets the Wikipedia requirements for all of the info I know.  Some info is lost because it was never recorded, I.E. the stained glass windows - only source of locations names on the windows if provided of companies.

http://www.sspeterandpaul.net/History.htm http://www.sspeterandpaul.net Kidsheaven 22:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Comments
I can't believe how long "Napervillains" has been in the introduction. I put that up so long ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.182.2.27 (talk) 15:30, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Population
According to the Wikipeida Napervill is larger than Joliet, that should be changed. The page is protected so I can't do that. The reference that is listed links to an article that comes up as "no longer list" so that is not a valid reference and needs to be removed.

4.143.236.247 (talk) 02:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)eric
 * I agree with the fact that the official census from 2000 should be listed on the page, with the estimated 2006 listed as a side note. These are not official at all, since the official ones are taken every 10 years. Just to give you an example. If you look up a place such as Monroe Center, Illinois on the US census page, it gives an estimated population that goes up 1 every year. So does that mean the village only has one person come into it in a year? I highly doubt it. It is just the average trend.--Kranar drogin (talk) 03:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that both numbers should be included and any estimates noted as such. I would keep an eye out for any special census conducted by the municipality since 2000, these are usually highly accurate and frequently performed (as population affects a variety of different things including funding at the state level). IvoShandor (talk) 22:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am going to ask for more opinions on this.--Kranar drogin (talk) 22:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so if they have a "special census" that is official, this would supercede the 2000 one then. But if it is simply a "census estimate", it would just be mentioned as an asside since they have actually done an estimate for both 2007 and prolly 2008 by now.--Kranar drogin (talk) 22:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Another possibility is to include a census box with populations every ten years for as far back as is available and then a recent estimate or local census figure. That way the trends in population are more clear. See for example Sullivan County, Pennsylvania. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Estimates by the US Census Bureau are quite acceptable, as long as (1) they're sourced, and (2) they're explicitly presented as estimates. I don't think it really matters whether the 2000 figure is mentioned in the intro, although it can help to get a short-term idea of growth or shrinkage.  The Guidelines don't like any census data except that produced by the Census Bureau; exceptions exist (I don't remember what state, but there was a place where it's been revised downward because it was discovered that the Bureau attributed a part of one municipality to another), but I don't think that local special censuses are a good enough exception.  Finally: 2008 estimates can't be produced, since the estimates are given as of July 1.  Nyttend (talk) 01:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Given that Census 2000 numbers are the last uniform official population numbers, I like to see them used in the infobox of a article. For the lead, I think it'd be appropriate to state both the 2000 population and the most recent Census estimate (2007).  The Demographics section should then list the 2000 population and the recent estimate in the prose and have the Template:USCensusPop table showing the 10-year census figures as far back as possible.  VerruckteDan (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I like that idea the best Dan, espeically the 10-year listing. That is usually what I try and go with, since the 10 year gaps are the most official, and should be listed as such. Estimates should also be listed, but only as mentions in the article, especially if the city is seeing growth. Maybe the geoboxes could have estimate figures after the official ones also as an idea.--Kranar drogin (talk) 22:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I find it laughable that the "Guidelines" don't accept special censuses. Good enough for local and state government to dole out taxpayer money with but not good enough for Wikipedia. This makes little, if any sense.98.206.18.43 (talk) 15:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the lateness of this response. I would agree with Kranar and Dan; the decennial census figure is the "most official" figure.  I see no problem with mentioning sourced estimates in the body of the article, but I don't know that it's necessary for that to be in the infobox/geobox.  In any case, it should always be made clear that they are estimates. Omnedon (talk) 15:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Naperville Library Fingerprint Policy
Would like a second opinion on the following (potentially negative) text that I removed from the article and am instead placing here on the discussion page... if anyone wants to restore it... go ahead... otherwise I am leaving it here in the discussion page...
 * In May 2005 a local technology company was contracted to install fingerprint scanners as a more convenient access method to the libraries internet computers provoking some controversy.  After further testing the technology was not implemented.
 * In way of response:
 * http://www.google.com/search?q=Naperville+Library+fingerprint&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:official&hs=SUJ&start=10&sa=N
 * Naperville to implement fingerprint technology:
 * http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2005-06-01-fingerprint-library-csm_x.htm
 * http://www.usbiometrics.com/news/Chicago_Tribune_052005.htm
 * http://www.ala.org/ala/alonline/currentnews/newsarchive/2005abc/may2005ab/naperville.cfm
 * Naperville drops fingerprint requirement:
 * http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/05/06/1639801.htm
 * http://www.ala.org/ala/alonline/currentnews/newsarchive/2006abc/may2006ab/naperville.cfm
 * -- Mike Vitale  15:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * In response, I say, how does this affect the city itself? Not at all. If an article was written about the library district, then it could be included in there. Other than that, good choice removing it from the article.--Kranar drogin 23:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

People from Naperville
I am going to move this section here for the time being:

A number of residents of Naperville have gone on to fame in a variety of fields. These include:


 * Hillary Scott porn star
 * Chris Brown, Tennessee Titans Running Back
 * Steve Cochran, radio talk personality WGN-AM
 * Owen Daniels, professional American football player for the Houston Texans
 * Antonio Davis, former Chicago Bull
 * David Eigenberg, actor
 * Gina Glocksen, American Idol Finalist
 * Jerry Hairston, Jr., professional baseball player
 * Adrian Holovaty, journalist and web developer, creator of the Django web framework
 * Harry Kalas, sportscaster
 * Alan Krashesky, news anchor WLS-TV
 * Dick Locher, editorialist and Dick Tracy cartoonist; currently residing in Naperville
 * Evan Lysacek, figure skater
 * Justin McCareins, professional American football player
 * Gary Miller, former ESPN anchor
 * Kelby Green, former Chicago Cubs outfielder
 * Bob Odenkirk, actor, writer and director
 * Anthony Parker, NBA player for the Toronto Raptors
 * Candace Parker, University of Tennessee basketball player
 * Sean Payton, head coach of the New Orleans Saints, 2006 NFL Coach of the Year
 * Ryan Bukvich, Chicago White Sox reliever
 * Paul Sereno, paleontologist; currently residing in Naperville
 * Jim Sonefeld, musician
 * Paula Zahn, newscaster
 * Robert Zoellick, former Deputy Secretary of State
 * Emily Giffin, author
 * Babatunde Oshinowo, defensive lineman for Chicago Bears of the NFL

And we can either add them into the article, or do like Feature Article Ann Arbor did and make a seperate page to list them under "See also".--Kranar drogin 02:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I move this to its own page here: List of people from Naperville, IllinoisDkriegls (talk) 05:05, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

More sections
I am moving these sections here. The religious institutions I have not found yet on a single Feature Article city article. We will have to see how to incorporate this into the article, either in the history or tourism. Honors should not have its own section, this needs to be incoporated into the article with the given sections, and same with Events. Some of those events are notable enough to have on here, and some need to be just removed. When things are added back into the article, they will need to be cited since we are going to go for GA on this article. It is a "B" right now, but needs a lot of work to get to GA.--Kranar drogin 02:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Even here there is controversy! The congregation currently named Wesley United Methodist Church has been worshiping continuously as a congregation since 1832. Given the penchant of Methodists for record keeping and the itinerancy system of pastoral assignment there has demonstrably been a pastor assigned to the congregation since 1832, making it the first and oldest Christian congregation in Naperville and DuPage County. This will have to be resolved before this part of the article can go live. Ray Trygstad (talk) 02:23, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm confused as to what specific article content question you are discussing. Yo are responding to a 3+ year old post. North8000 (talk) 10:30, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Religious institutions
Naperville is home to many religious institutions, serving different faiths and denominations. Some of the area's first churches, First Congregational Church UCC of Naperville whose congregation began worshiping together in 1833 is the oldest organized church in DuPage county and the second Congregational church in Illinois has been on its present site since 1846, the present St. John United Church of Christ congregation, was established in 1857 by German settlers. The church still holds monthly services in the German language.[9] The Century Memorial Chapel, on the grounds of the Naper Settlement outdoor museum, dates from 1864. This chapel was the original home of Saint John's Episcopal church, which was organized in 1850 as the first Episcopal church in DuPage County.

Several of Naperville's religious institutions are also directly involved in education, such as Bethany Lutheran Church and School, Calvary Church and School (now located in Aurora, though for many years it was on Aurora Road in Naperville), St.Elizabeth Seton (http://sesnaperville.org), St. Raphael's Church and School, Saints Peter and Paul Church and School, and the All Saints Catholic Academy.

Congregation Beth Shalom built a new synagogue and education center in the 1990s, and the Islamic Center of Naperville is located on Olesen Drive. In addition to the Christian churches and congregations named, there are five total Roman Catholic churches, four Baptist churches, two Churches of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, five United Methodist churches, one Presbyterian (USA) church, the DuPage Unitarian Universalist Church, five Evangelical Lutheran churches, three Lutheran Missouri Synod churches, one Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, one African Methodist Episcopal church, and many non-denominational churches.

Honors
In July of 2006, CNN/Money and Money magazine ranked Naperville second on its list of the 100 best places to live in the United States (behind Fort Collins, Colorado). This was up one spot from the previous year, where the city was honored with third place. The U.S. Census Bureau called Naperville "the country's best place to be a kid" in 2004. The city has been named "Most Kid-Friendly City in America" by Zero Population Growth, and continues to be rated very highly at their website (#3 out of 74 as of March 2006). 

Since 1998, the Naperville Public Library was ranked the #1 public library in the U.S. in the 100,000 to 249,999-population category by American Libraries magazine, the official magazine of the American Library Association. 

In 2000, Naperville had the highest average income amongst cities with populations over 70,000.

The AARP listed Naperville as one of its "top ten small towns for senior citizens" in 2000. Walking magazine listed Naperville on its top ten list of U.S. "walking towns," in 1999.

Events
The City of Naperville hosts many annual events, including: By 2007, a DuPage River Trail will be opened for pedestrians and bicyclists, stretching from the DuPage River Sports Complex (at Naperville's boundary with Bolingbrook, Illinois) through Knoch Knolls Park (south of the DuPage/Will county line) to the Riverwalk in downtown Naperville. As of early July 2005, the trail can only be hiked from 87th Street to Hobson Road. This is due to continuing legal negotiations between the city and homeowners along the trail. From Hobson Road north to the Riverwalk, the path is fully open to both pedestrians and bicyclists.
 * Saint Patrick's Day Parade (typically held on the last Saturday just before or on 17 March)
 * Civil War Days (reenactments held at Naper Settlement, May)
 * Memorial Day Parade (last Monday in May)
 * Naper Days (formerly Joe Naper Day, in June), an outdoor festival
 * Ribfest (just prior to and including Independence Day), an outdoor food festival (with an emphasis on barbecue ribs) by Naperville Exchange Club
 * Last Fling (Labor Day weekend), an outdoor festival and carnival - by the Naperville Jaycees
 * Labor Day Parade (held on Labor Day)- by the Naperville Jaycees
 * Oktoberfest (Columbus Day weekend), an outdoor festival - by the Naperville Rotary Club
 * Series of summer concerts Thursdays in Central Park by the Naperville Municipal Band, (founded in 1861) and carillon concerts at the Millennium Carillon.

Possible changes additions

 * City Government - employs a Council-Manager form of municipal government consisting of a city manager, a part-time mayor, and an eight-member City Council. Though the current Mayor A. George Pradel works as though it is a full-time job, that is not intended or required. There is a page on such as it is common at least in Illinois.
 * minor - Auto Nation sold their car dealers in Naperville. Kidsheaven 00:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Organizational Issues
Why are Parks a subheading of Education? I just added a section on the Riverwalk under tourism, although really the whole Parks section should just go under tourism, shouldn't it? I'll make that change later, if nobody objects. -J TerMaat (talk) 21:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I changed the heading to "City Services" which sounds more appropriate.Livewireo (talk) 19:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)