Talk:Nasreddin/Archive 1

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Title
I chose Nasreddin as the title based on the number of google hits. The second best was Nasrudin (which had a separate article that I merged into this senior one), and the others were far behind. --Shallot 13:21, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * Since it is an Arabic name, the spelling should be more like Nasruddin. However he was basically a Central Asian character and claimed by Persians, Turks, Afghans, Pakistanies etc etc.  Turks would spell him Nasrettin I believe Hassanfarooqi 17:05, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Over the years, offline, in books, the transliteration I have seen most often is Nasruddin. This Nasreddin variant seems idiosyncratic.  Athaenara   (talk)  08:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've got a copy of a Hoca book printed in Turkey. The spelling used in this Turkish edition is "Nasreddin." BTW, Hoca is about the one thing that Turks and Armenians can jointly split their sides over (i.e., they can laugh about). Armenian kids in Lebanon all laugh over Hoca jokes, largely the same ones that their Turkish peers are chuckling over in Anatolia.

Defining reality
Clearly Google is the now considered the source of all wisdom. Thank goodness that no vested interests (such as with encyclopedieas) are allowed to interefere with this process. A world run by spooks and Librarians? 82.69.58.117 07:27, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Mulla Nasrudin went to http://search.msn.com and typed "camel". It returned 5,829,085 results. "One of these must be it!" he said.
 * He read the first results page and found not what he wanted. So he clicked "Next".
 * He read the second results page and found not what he wanted. So he clicked "Next".
 * He read the third results page and found not what he wanted. So he clicked "Next".
 * Eventually the lab administrator approached Nasrudin. "You seem to be frustrated. Are you having trouble with the computer?"
 * "Yes," said Nasrudin. "I cannot find the thing on the Internet that I want."
 * "Well," replied the lab administrator, "I can help you with the search engine. Everything is on the Internet now; you only need to know how to query the engine."
 * "Good!" exclaimed Nasrudin. "See, I lost my camel in a village yesterday, and was hoping that I could find it." --Kernigh 22:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

lol, that was a true Nasreddin inpersonation, so bad it that it makes you lol!--Striver 18:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Deleted examples
We have a whole Nasreddin wikibook linked. It is pointless to duplicate them in wikipedia. Mukadderat 18:50, 22 February 2006 (UTC) Yeah, lets delete everying that is presented somewhere else. --Striver 18:57, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * ok, that makes sense to me. it will leave this article a little thin, though.  suggestions?  Ted 20:01, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Actualy, i was sarcastic. Everything can be found somewhere else, including the whole article. Are we doing a article or not? --Striver 20:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC) I am sorry. I like Hoca Nasruddin's witty tales very much. But please understand, two examples are very enough to show the point. And "everything" is not "somewhere else"; it is right here, within wikimedia, in the sister project Wikibooks, the proper place for good books. And the article is not "thin". It is a big article. Mukadderat 23:24, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I've just reinstated three tales, taking them from back in September, rewriting a little for style. It's informative to exemplify, and frequent practice in wikipedia (take for example the page on the joke or, in another field, the page on Vincent van Gogh where some of his paintings are included). Besides, we should have something funny in the article and not keep it all for the talk page.--Annielogue (talk) 20:10, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Copyvio
The entire "About Nasreddin" section, including its "Modern recognition" subsection, was taken without attribution from a single paragraph on a webpage which I found with the string "nasruddin 1208 hortu 1237 aksehir" on a search engine. Copyvio, unless explicitly cited with permission. N.B.: below every wikipedia edit box is the statement, "Do not copy text from other websites without permission. It will be deleted." Athaenara  (talk)  08:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And guess what's cited there? wikipedia ...  Athaenara  08:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Nasreddin article, 3R rule.
It's not me but you who had deleted information from the article. If you consider that it was first you who had reverted my edits, than you would realize how funny to leave a message in my talk page about 3R rule. However, i'm open to discussions about the article. Please explain why you have removed my referenced information from the article ? PS. You've once accused me to act like vandal in one of your edit explanations. I will be happy if you manage to refrain from personal attacks, esp to me.--BlueEyedCat 11:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * BTW, i've recently re-read the article and i find your last edits reasonable. I'm mostly fine with the current status of the article. (I've added some data about where he was born and lived)--BlueEyedCat 11:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You been served with 3RR since you been in the breach of such a policy. Please check the records. With regard to your statement, I have not removed the citations that you have provided, but reinstated in a scholarly manner, than POV Pushing (please see: Neutral point of view policy. However, Vandalism is not a personal attack but a Wikipedia policy which is being observed by Wikipedians. You edits were in line with such a policy. However, I am more than happy to disuss this matter further, in relevant discussion page for future arbitrations, if required. ← ← Parthian Shot  (Talk)  11:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * All the edits are welcome, as long as are supported by reputable sources (not Turkish Ministry of Culture, since they have the habit of calling everyone Turk; i.e. Parthians, Scythians, ancient Anatolians etc.) ← ← Parthian Shot  (Talk)  11:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * BTW: Although Turkish Ministry of Culture, is not considered to be a neutral source, but I have NOT removed the citation. ← ← Parthian Shot  (Talk)  11:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The Removed Entries
He was assumed to be born in 1208 in Hortu, a village near the of town Sivrihisar in what is now Central Turkey. He moved in 1237 to Akşehir a local town, to study under the scholars Seyid Mahmud Hayrani and Seyid Haci Ibrahim

The citation differs with the claim, since it reads:
 * Nasreddin è diventato una specie di icona popolare, ma è anche un personaggio realmente vissuto nel XIII secolo, a cui parecchie città turche si contendono l'onore di aver dato i natali. Vi è anche chi lo dice vissuto alla corte del Khwârezm...

Which Translates as:
 * Nasreddin has become a popular icon, but he is also a historical personage lived in 13th century, to which several Turkish cities honoured him, by claiming his birthplace. There is also who says it lived to the court of the Khwârezm...

Therefore he was lived in khwarazam and not as claimed in Hortu, a village near the of town Sivrihisar as you stated. ← ← Parthian Shot (Talk)  05:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * PS. Same article says: It is possible that he had visited Akshehir (Sasanian Sapid-Shahr – White City) and studied with Hayran and Haji Ibrahim, but this is only a claim, which is not proven. ← ← Parthian Shot  (Talk)  06:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You're just clipping a small region from the bigger text.

''Nasreddin era figlio di Abdullah Efendi, imam del villaggio di Hortu, e di Sidika Hatun, e studiò nella scuola teologica (medrese) di Shivrihisar e nella scuola hanefita di Konya. Morto il padre divenne a sua volta imam del villaggio per anni, finché nel 1237 si trasferì ad Akshehir, dove studiò con famosi eruditi del suo tempo come Seyid Mahmud Hayrani (morto ad Akshehir nel 1268-69) e Seyid Haci Ibrahim. Pare che due vakifname (atti di pia donazione), scritti rispettivamente da Hayrani nel 1257 e da Haci Ibrahim nel 1267, riportino il suo nome.

Nel Saltukname si dice anche che Sari Saltuk fu discepolo di Hayrani insieme a Nasreddin, a cui avrebbe in un’occasione fatto visita ad Akshehir.''

which translates as

''Nasreddin was son of Abdullah Efendi, imam of the village of Hortu, and Sidika Hatun, and studied in the theological school (medrese) of Shivrihisar and in the hanefita school of Konya. Died the father divenne in its turn imam of the village for years, until in the 1237 it was moved to Akshehir, where it studied with famous erudites of its time as Seyid Mahmud Hayrani (dead man to Akshehir in 1268-69) and Seyid Has Ibrahim to us. It seems that two vakifname (actions of devout donation), written respective from Hayrani in 1257 and from It has Ibrahim to us in 1267, bring back its name. In the Saltukname it is said also that Sari Saltuk was disciple of Hayrani with to Nasreddin, to which would have in a made occasion visit to Akshehir.''

So I think that "It's only claimed by Turkey" phrase is not right. --BlueEyedCat 12:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

7th anecdote (perfection)
I put a dubious tag there. I am not sure that it is a Nasreddin anecdote, is it written in Idris Shah's book, where did you see it? Also I added details about his life according to the given claim. deniz 23:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Pejman47, please read my comment above. I left that comment about two weeks ago. denizTC 23:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

International Nasreddin Hojda Festival
Today Nasreddin Hodja is accepted as being a Turk from Turkey, his tomb can be found there. Also the "International Nasreddin Hodja Festival" is held annually in his home town Akşehir between July 5-10.[11]

I think its an important point, today he's claimed strongest by the Turks and this is represented on an International scale, his birthplace, tomb, festivals etc.

--86.143.168.254 23:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I kept the festival part. The remaining was repetition. He is claimed being one of theirs by many communities. DenizTC 01:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

He may be claimed but Turkey have the strongest position claiming him. Birthplace, historical records, a tomb, historic books, also let's not forget alot of the areas where he is popular today were ruled by the Turks, its natural for his appeal to spread. For example we can be pretty sure he wasn't from the Balkans or Arabia.

--86.143.168.254 12:30, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

tag for contradiction
It is not discussed on the talk page, yet. Please lets discuss. DenizTC 01:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Birth in Khorasan
This is written in one book, where is the proof that he was from this region? where are the historical records? where is his tomb? where is their any form of evidence of him being from there?

I think its un-accurate to portray him being from Khorasan while the version that he was from Turkey can be backed up via more reliable sources and relics ie his tomb, his tomb can be visited and there are monuments to him. Why is this called an "unproven" claim but the Khorasan version accepted as a "fact"?

The article even says, "somewhere in Khorasan", this is a dubious claim but is presented as being more reliable than the theory of him being from Turkey, where there are birth records and records of him as being a religous figure in a religous institution.

Regards

--86.143.168.254 12:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 18:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Khorasan
If he lived during the 13th century, he could not be under Seljuk rule. Besides, there is no proof that he was born in Khorasan, whereas there is a gravesite of him in Turkey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.193.197 (talk) 00:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

KHOROSAN!!!
Could somebody give one reliable source which can proove that Nasreddin Hodja was born or lived in Khorosan?

Why is Khorosan referred to as being "Iran", in that era it was under Turkish or Mongol rule. Torke

Idris Shahs book
Why is this book treated as some kind of historical source? its a modern work of fiction.

The oldest historical records of Nasreddin Hoca are in the archives of Aksehir which document him being an Imam there.

The oldest collected jokes of his are written in the Saltukname by Sari Saltuk patronaged by Cem Sultan.

The stories of the Hoca are known in places Turks have lived and ruled, which is how non-Turks came to love him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.0.143 (talk) 13:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Gurdjieff's influence by Nasreddin
Hello there. I've been doing extensive work to Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'. I came across a few interesting passages. Among them is a quote by Gurdjieff where he says "...in the style of my former teacher, now almost a Saint, Mullah Nassr Eddin...". There are a number of ways this sentance could be read, some forgiving or apologistic of the idea that Gurdjieff claims to have been taught by Mullah Nassr Eddin, but I read it literally.

Is there another 'Mullah Nassr Eddin' that was alive in the 19th century? Was the historicity of 'Mullah Nassr Eddin' unclearly unknown in the 19th century?

Thanks. Also, I invite anyone who is interested to come help me work on the Life Is Real... article.Yeago (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Gurdjieff was a mystic: mystics routinely claim communication with unincarnated beings. Offhand, I'd put it down to that. --Arthur Borges (talk) 07:27, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Origin of the anecdotes
I once related to a Chinese friend the anecdote about unfairly burdening the donkey with a heavy load and carrying it on his own back. He immediately recognized it as a Chinese fable! This made me wonder if the story might have migrated from China. Any Sinologists around? --Adoniscik(t, c) 04:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Islam came to China by trade, missionaries and force of arms. Your idea cannot be ruled out however.

Interestingly, the Foreign Language Press published a paperback anthology, in the late 1960s or early 1970s, of quite anti-capitalist "Effendi" stories, as Nasrudin is called here, with translations into several languages including English. --Arthur Borges (talk) 07:25, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I recognize many Nasreddin tales from my own (European Jewish) culture. There is often no way to ascertin which direction the tale traveled. When there is cultural contact stories can go in either direction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.164.64 (talk) 17:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

what about juḥā
the interwiki from arabic wikipedia juḥā جحا links here, i think there should be a paragraph about different variations of this folucloristic character most of the nations who lived under Ottoman rule has a character like this but gives it different names or maybe it should be in a seperate article. --Histolo2 (talk) 21:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)