Talk:Nasrid dynasty

Untitled
There is a little town in the Costa Blanca, in the province of Alicante named: Callosa d'En Sarria. At the top of a nearby mountain there exists a little castle known as Guadalest d'En Sarria. In the 70's the name of this town was originally Guadalest d'Ensaria. Upon recent quests as to where the origin of d'En Sarria actually came, I never got a clear answer from the locals. Which leads me to believe that it is a distortion of the original Ensaria, which was named in remembrance of the origins of the Nasrid Dynasty: The Ansars. Could someone please dig deeper into this to find out, whether there is any substance to my claim? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sansari (talk • contribs)


 * There is no relation whatsoever. The name comes from Bernat de Sarriá, who bought the feudal rights to the then village in 1290 from King Alfonso I of Valencia (also known as Alfonso III of Aragón). His family would control it till it was returned to the Crown of Aragón in 1335. Regards, E    Asterion  u talking to me? 20:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Sultans or Emirs?
I see that all the Nasrid rulers in this and subsequent wikipedia articles are referred to as "sultans". Granada was not a Sultanate but an Emirate, thus the rulers would be titled "emir" and not "sultan". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Takeaway (talk • contribs) 09:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not quite. The kingdom of Granada is in fact (maybe erroneously, i don't know) referred to as "sultanate" in most of the relevant literature, as far as I can see. Maybe because Mohammed I ibn Nasr had himself proclaimed sultan in 1232 before in 1246 he consented in being a vassal of the Castilian kings? Maybe because the regents of Granada were vassals, but never to a muslim sultan, but always to the christian kings of Castilia? Or was the differentiation between a sultanate and an emirate just not so strict in the middle ages? --FordPrefect42 (talk) 13:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You keep saying that,, but you really have provided no evidence that he called himself a sultan in Arabic.


 * The "sultan" label is commonly used because the best known book on the Nasrids was written in French by Rachel Arié. And let me give you a sample of translation in the French orientalist school: "«amir al-muslimïn al mugâhidin» (sultan des musulmans combattants)". Amir al-muslimïn is a lakab a notch below calif; the point of this title was to allow room to declare nominal suzerainty of a calif.


 * Muhammad I also took the theocratic lakab: al-Ghalib billah (victor through the strength of God / the victor with God's assistance) as part of his name. But I've not see any text to say he called himself sultan, in Arabic. That doesn't imply that none of his successors did not. And it was common among Arabic historians to retrofit alkab. (c.f. the lakab entry in Encyclopedia of Islam, vol 5, 1986)


 * Spanish sources usually say he declared himself emir in 1232 as their historiography is less dependent on the French, e.g. (p. 636)


 * As far as I can tell Joseph F. O'Callaghan in The Gibraltar Crusade doesn't call any of the Nasrids sultans, but he surely uses that title for some Marinids and Mamluks. The Encyclopedia of Islam (vol 7, 1993) entry for Nasrids is pretty careful to list all their alkab, more so than other sources, and again doesn't call any of them sultan. Other authors are obviously less discriminating.


 * Now, it's possible that in vernacular they called themselves sultan based on a passage in Islamic Spain, 1250 to 1500 by L. P. Harvey, where a son of a Granadan ruler shouted in battle "Ana ibn al-sultan" meaning "I'm the sultan's son".


 * I'm going to ask some Islam WikiProject, assuming I can find one, as some Arabic sources would be best to decide what they styled themselves. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 23:23, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Problem with tree picture
The Yusuf (I) between Ismail I and Muhammad V also ruled himself between 1333-54. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 01:37, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Massive addition
The recent addition by user:General Tarik was copy & pasted from here. This is a violation of wikipedia policy. I have therefore removed said plagiarism. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:15, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Source and copied page numbers
It appears Tarook's source is copied from here. Including the pages 71-88.

I would like a quote along with the specific page in which it states the Nasrids were Arab. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:39, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

"As regards the Nasrids or Banu Nasr, they presented themselves as descendants of Sa'd ibn 'Ubada al-Khazraji through Sa'd's son Qays, who had been governor of Egypt. The Khazraj – together withe the Aws – were called Anṣār (Defenders) because of the help they gave to the Prophet Muhammad in Medina, and this Sa'd ibn 'Ubada al-Khazraji had been on the verge of becoming the Prophet's successor after his death. Descendants of this leader of the Prophet's Ansar were known to have settled in the Iberian Peninsula, and some Andalusi nasabs explicitly record this lineage, to which I shall return." - pp. 78

"All of the Granadan families mentioned by Ibn al-Khatib have an Arab ancestry; no Berber conqueror is mentioned." - pp. 78

– ''Savant, S., Felipe, H. (2014). Ways of connecting with the Past: Genealogies in Nasrid Granada. Genealogies and Knowledge in Muslim Societies (pp. 71–88). Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press Ltd.'' Tarook97 (talk) 18:30, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I still see nothing stating Nasrids were Arabs. Your quote from page 78 makes no mention of Nasrids.


 * "As regards the Nasrids or Banu Nasr, they presented themselves as descendants of Sa'd ibn 'Ubada al-Khazraji..."
 * "Presented themselves", I see nothing stating they were descendants or were Arabs.
 * "The Banu l-Zubayr al-'Asimi: A Nasrid family claiming an Arab Conqueror as an ancestor" --Genealogy and Knowledge in Muslim Societies: Understanding the Past, edited by Sarah Bowen Savant, Helena de Felipe, page 73. Note the word, "claiming".
 * Clearly this indicates the Nasrid's "Arab" genealogy is merely a claim, not fact.
 * Self revert or be reported. Your choice. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:29, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

"...and some Andalusi nasabs explicitly record this lineage, to which I shall return." - pp. 78

Your opinion is not more reliable than academic sources. Tarook97 (talk) 21:48, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Excuse me? You are taking what that academic source calls "claims" and presenting it as fact;
 * "The Nasrid dynasty (Arabic: بنو نصر‎‎ banū Naṣr) was the last Arab Muslim dynasty in Iberia, ruling the Emirate of Granada from 1238 until 1492."
 * Your source does not state they were Arab.
 * That is original research and POV pushing. It is you who is taking their opinion of what they want a source to say and edit warring it into an article. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:52, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

"...and some Andalusi nasabs explicitly record this lineage, to which I shall return." - pp. 78

Those "claims" are accepted by the academic source and Andalusian nasabs (genealogies) as seen in the quote above. You not accepting them is not a reason for me to revert. Tarook97 (talk) 22:20, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

If The Nasrid dynasty were Arabs then why does the first paragraph state that they are "the last Moorish Muslim dynasty" isn't it supposed to be the "the last Arab Muslim dynasty" instead or at least "the last Muslim dynasty"? because it's confusing.

Al-Zaghal (the valiant)
As far as I am aware, the nickname 'Al- Zhagal' is cognate with the word that survives in modern Castilian as  zagal meaning 'youth' or 'lad' (zagalla being its female equivalent).

In the Diccionario de Real Academia Espańola zagal is desribed of Arab derivation:

"Del ár. hisp. zaḡál[l] 'joven, valiente' o del ár. clás. zuḡlūl 'muchacho'"

However, I believe the nickname is found in Castilian sources rather than Arab, which would put the emphasis on youth rather than valour.

"1. m. y f. Pastor joven.

2. m. y f. Persona que ha llegado a la adolescencia o a la juventud.

3. m. Mozo que ayudaba al mayoral en los carruajes de caballerías."

https://dle.rae.es/?id=cH9Ra9q|cHAOe0x

The nasab of Yusuf
The nasab of Yusuf (nicknamed "al-Ahmar", meaning "the Red" 

How does this fragment relate to the preceding sentences? Who is Yusuf? JF42 (talk) 10:39, 12 November 2022 (UTC)