Talk:National Center for Science Education

Trivia Removed
I couldn't figure out why the information in the trivia section was at all important, so I removed it. Feel free to put it back if you can justify its inclusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.95.171.100 (talk) 03:38, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Involvement in the Kitzmiller v. DASD Trial
It seems to me that NCSE's role as consultant to the plaintiffs in the Kitzmiller case of 2005 is notable and worthy of mention. --Wesley R. Elsberry 21:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

National Center for Science Education is not religiously neutral like article states
I cite the following article as evidence: How Religiously Neutral are the Anti-Creationist Organisations? 136.183.146.158 17:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * So, after showing how dishonest everything else is on that website, why do you believe that this should be the one article which isn't? Find someone less doshonest to quote. Guettarda 18:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I cite the following from the above article: "The list of ‘Supporters’ of the NCSE (eg. NCSE Reports 16(4), back cover) almost reads like a ‘Who’s Who’ of American atheism—names such as Gould, Eldredge, Jukes, Johanson, Sagan and Dalrymple, for example. Also, a frequent contributor to the NCSE Reports is one Molleen Matsumara, ‘National Program Director’ of NCSE, who is a signatory to Humanist Manifesto 2000." 136.183.146.158 00:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi kenny, hows things ? anyway the article doesn't state that the National Center for Science Education is not religiously neutral but quotes the National Center for Science Education web page which self-describes itself as that. Truthfully only people with an atheist or agnostic worldview can really be religiously neutral as then no one religion can be promoted over the other. Then you can either promote all religions (pluralist) or prefer none (a position that many are now considering for the better given the current appalling behaviour of some religious members). Ttiotsw 05:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The NCSE's members and supporters may or may not be religiously neutral. But that does not mean that the organisation as a corporate person is not. If you look at the core message of Eugenie Scott et al it is not one of atheism, but one of science. The creationist criticism is noted and sourced per Wikipedia norms. To conflate the two is Guilt by association. Paul A. Newman 12:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Paul A. Newman, you wrote "If you look at the core message of Eugenie Scott et al it is not one of atheism, but one of science." Is this true? I don't believe it is true. I cite the following: "To demonstrate once more the essential role of evolution in atheist/humanists, Eugenie Scott, the leader of the NCSE, was recently awarded the American Humanist Association’s 1998 “Isaac Asimov Science Award”.1 The humanists understand the usefulness of evolution for their cause—sadly, they understand better than many churchians." Here is what Wikipedia states about the American Humanist Association: "The American Humanist Association (AHA) is an educational organization in the United States that advances humanism. While its philosophical emphasis is on secular humanism, it recognizes the legitimacy of religious humanism." 128.205.115.88 03:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Citing propaganda from Answers in Genesis doesn't mean much, and certainly nothing they said even comes close to responding to Newman's point. --Wesley R. Elsberry 17:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I went on the NCSE's 2007 Colorado River trip. Everyone on the trip was an evolutionist and supporter of the NCSE, many were scientists, but Eugenie Scott and I and one other person were the only atheists. On the list of supporters, I don't know the religious views of most of them, but Francisco Ayala and Kenneth Miller are Catholic--Ayala is actually a Jesuit priest. Lippard (talk) 03:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Nat Ctr Sci Ed logo.gif
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Update Staff Info
My name needs to be moved from the active staff list to the past staff list. Jessica Moran was the past Archive Project Director; her name could also go on past staff, along with Molleen Matsumura, former Network Project Director. --Wesley R. Elsberry 17:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The staff list is still inaccurate. --Wesley R. Elsberry 06:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

NCSE edit of the article
On August 9, 2007, the article was anonymously edited from NCSE's dotted quad. Although the edit was minor and factual, updating the lists of NCSE's staff and supporters, it might conceivably be regarded as a violation of Wikipedia policies, such as WP:AUTO. Hence NCSE staff members have been instructed not to edit any Wikipedia entries anonymously, and to familiarize themselves with and observe all applicable policies while editing Wikipedia. Glenn Branch 21:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * (Just cruising by) Well, WP:AUTO says "you should feel free to correct mistaken or out-of-date facts about yourself" (with talk-page notification, which I admit apparently hasn't happened), and correcting a staff list that had been pointed out to be out-of-date since June (see section above) looks like one of those cases. Sure, reading up on proper policies and guidelines is important and should be done, and COI and such should of course be considered, but telling them not to edit ANY entry without signing up seems a bit over the top. --Sid 3050 22:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting, Glenn, would you care to disclose the account names used by all NCSE wikipedia contributors, administrators, and buerucrats, so that we can put a little sunshine on their contributions and subject these contributions to scrutiny? Or how about just creating an NCSE policy that NCSE employees are not to use NCSE computers to edit wikipedia articles, and they are not to inject NCSE POV into evolution related articles? You do realize, don't you, that wikipedia check user can be (and may already have been) infiltrated, as well as wikipedia's ISP, and such information can become public in the future. Daisey cutter 14:49, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. I don't recall seeing another organization come out with such a strong statement of official support for Wikipedia integrity. Note also Sid's comment about permitted edits under WP:AUTO. Obsession is unhealthy, "Daisey cutter". Why don't you run off and see whether the ICR, DI, and AiG would be willing to follow the NCSE lead on this matter? Or is there a bit of POV to your own participation at Wikipedia?


 * Probably the most active Wikipedia involvement of someone historically associated with NCSE (2003/11 to 2007/02) would be my contributions. Feel free to scrutinize my record. It is by no means perfect, but I'll stack it up against any other person who has been as active on Wikipedia concerning evolution/creationism issues.


 * "Or how about just creating an NCSE policy that NCSE employees are not to use NCSE computers to edit wikipedia articles, and they are not to inject NCSE POV into evolution related articles?" Well, one reason would be that, as Sid noted, there are unreasonable restrictions, and employers shouldn't impose unreasonable restrictions on employees. Sid thinks that NCSE went too far already. Not participating at all in Wikipedia from NCSE machines is unreasonable. As for POV, I have a feeling that "Daisey cutter" can't distinguish between POV and accurate information. NCSE employs domain experts on the antievolution movement, and Wikipedia would be worse off without their participation. Since NCSE has officially endorsed all Wikipedia policies as guidelines for that participation, perhaps "Daisey cutter" should take a leap at changing Wikipedia policies. Certainly "Daisey cutter"'s attempt to complain about Project Steve ran aground on a simple fact, that there was "No tendentious editing". And, in fact, the public record for unsigned edits made from the NCSE IP address shows relatively infrequent instances of "No tendentious editing", which hardly argues for "Daisey cutter"'s proposed program of Inquisition. --Wesley R. Elsberry 15:58, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

As the primary editor here maintaining the Project Steve page, as well as the articles A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism, Physicians and Surgeons who Dissent from Darwinism and Clergy Letter Project, as well as similar statistics accumulated by Answers in Genesis, Institute for Creation Research, Creation Ministries International and Christian Answers (see Level of support for evolution, now being rewritten to be more accessible hopefully), I appreciate the efforts of the NCSE as being the ONLY ONE of these 8 organizations to update their statistics on Wikipedia regularly. I wish the other organizations would do the same, frankly. Surely this is NOT conflict of interest. It is definitely appreciated by me. Rather than complaining about it, we should be applauding this action, and encouraging the others to do the same, in my opinion.--Filll 17:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought
It seems this article might be improved by a bit more on their actual activities to promote science education. The list of prominant supporters is nice (though to many red links, either we need more scientist biographies, or unlink as not notable enough for an article). Just a thought since I don't have time to work on that sort of thing now. --Rocksanddirt 19:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Update staff list
Nick Matzke departed NCSE to attend graduate school in August 2007, as can be verified at the NCSE website here ; perhaps someone would be so kind as to move his name from the list of current staff members to the list of previous staff members?--Glenn Branch 03:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Done. But I think the number of redlinks in this section needs to be reduced. Hrafn42 03:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well then it's time to start writing some articles :) Guettarda 06:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Project Steve
Of all the notable work done by the NCSE, including the instrumental role it played in the Kitzmiller vs Dover trial, can I ask why the notable accomplishment given mention in the lead paragraph is the ID-parody Project Steve? Seems a misplaced emphasis to lead with it. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you have a good point there. As fun as Project Steve is, it really is not that important in the grand scheme of things.--Filll (talk) 17:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Glancing at this article, I see that in general this article is really poorly written and could definitely stand some rewriting and fleshing out.--Filll (talk) 17:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It would do well to take out the lengthy lists full of redlinked names and replace it with more substantive content. Professor marginalia (talk) 18:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think there is some value to a list of NCSE personnel, but maybe they do not belong in this article, but a subsiduary daughter article. It is useful to keep track of who has an article and who does not, and what remains to be done, as such it is allowed under Wikipedia policy.--Filll (talk) 18:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

role of 'supporters'?
The article lists a few dozen 'supporters' but it is not clear in what way the support the NCSE. The article says that the NCSE has 4000 members. What is the difference betwen a member and a supporter? Northfox (talk) 12:14, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * 'Members' would be "financial members", 'supporters' would be members who are (senior?) academics (and quite probably act as advisors or spokemen on issues). Members pay the bills, supporters gives the organisation gravitas. HrafnTalkStalk 12:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "The NCSE offers a variety of lecturers, including biologists, anthropologists, philosophers, and theologians, for topics relating to evolution, science, and education." HrafnTalkStalk 13:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

more outside info?
I realized that the vast majority of references is from the NCSE website. Isn't this discouraged in Wikipedia? Also, most of the info in the article is taken directly from NCSE webpages. Looks like there is not much infor about the NCSE apart from within the NCSE. Are they that much unnoticed? Northfox (talk) 12:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * One place to check. --Wesley R. Elsberry (talk) 02:39, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Just did some (rough) editing of an obvious mistake in quoting. Anybody wants to continue to enhance the poor quality of this article? The NCSE, a spearhaed against creationist, deserves better. Northfox (talk) 12:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've added some third-party citations, including to Numbers (the Gold Standard in such things). More are needed of course. The problem is to some extent that the organisation's leadership & 'supporters' includes a virtual who's who of nearly every credible major academic publishing on the topic of Creationism. This does rather cut down on the number of potential third party sources. HrafnTalkStalk 13:18, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The 'numbers(2006)' reference that appears in the article at various places, with different page numbers, is meaningless. Northfox (talk) 10:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC) addendum: notes and rferences should be merged. Northfox (talk) 10:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Please read National Center for Science Education & WP:CITE. I find it absurd that somebody considers themselves qualified to edit this article, but has not heard of Ronald L. Numbers. HrafnTalkStalk 11:45, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * don't jump to your conclusions.Northfox (talk) 14:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As ever, my recommendation for Citation templates when using shortened footnotes is to use Template:Harvard citation no brackets for the inline cites, thus produces  which then links down to the full reference if it's changed to Template:Citation format. A little more work, but the use of the referencing is made more obvious, as well as making the references easier to find. . dave souza, talk 12:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * thanks. Northfox (talk) 14:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Updates, please?
A few updates would be appreciated:
 * under Directors, Brian Alters, John R. Cole, and Duane Jeffrey should be removed, and Bernard Winograd, Prudential Financial, should be added
 * under Officers, Elizabeth K. Stage should be removed, and Brian Alters, McGill University, should be added as Vice-President
 * under Staff, Susan Spath and Anton Mates should be removed, Hess's title should be changed to Director, Religious Community Outreach, and Newton's, Rosenau's, and Meikle's titles should be changed to Programs and Policy Director
 * under Supporters, Bruce Albert's affiliation should be University of California, San Francisco (and "former" might be inserted before "President of the National Academy of Sciences" in the third paragraph under History)

See http://ncse.com/about/board and http://ncse.com/about/staff for verification. Glenn Branch (talk) 18:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Done, and thanks. Guettarda (talk) 19:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow, that was fast! Many thanks. You seem to have overlooked the change to the Officers (Alters as Vice President replaces Stage as President-Elect) and the change to Meikle's title (Programs and Policy Director), though. So if I may impose further... Glenn Branch (talk) 22:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, missed that. Done now. Guettarda (talk) 06:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

A few further updates would be appreciated:
 * under Directors, Frank Sonleitner and Bernard Winograd should be removed, and Martha Heil's affiliation should be changed to Association for Psychological Science.
 * under Officers, Kevin Padian should be removed, Brian Alters's title should be changed to President, Brian Alters's affiliation should be changed to Chapman University, Bernard Winograd should be added (with no affiliation) as Vice President/Treasurer, and Robert M. West's title should be changed to Secretary.
 * under Staff, Philip T. Spieth should be removed and replaced with Rae Holzman, Mark McCaffrey should be added under Programs and Policy Directors, Louise S. Mead should be removed and replaced with Eric Meikle, and the Outreach Coordinator: Eric Meikle line can be deleted.
 * under Supporters, Johnnetta B. Cole's affiliation is now Smithsonian Institution, Lynn Margulis needs an obelisk by her name, and Kevin Padian, University of California, Berkeley should be added.

See http://ncse.com/about/board and http://ncse.com/about/staff for verification. Glenn Branch (talk) 15:25, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry to be rather slow this time, Martha Heil's affiliation is shown blank in the source so I've omitted it rather than changed it to Association for Psychological Science. Similarly, have omitted *Past President: Jack B. Friedman — Nassau Community College as he's not on the current list. Otherwise, hope that's it done ok, . dave souza, talk 11:34, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks! A few more updates if you would be so kind: (BTW, Martha Hell left APS between the time I asked for the last update and the time it was implemented.) See http://ncse.com/about/board and http://ncse.com/about/staff for verification. Glenn Branch (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:49, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * under Directors, Benjamin D. Santer, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory should be added.
 * under Staff, Minda Berbeco should be added under Programs and Policy Directors.
 * Thanks, updated in accordance with the sources. Congrats on getting Ben Santer to strengthen the climate aspects, . dave souza, talk 17:53, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for updating the listing with the new executive director! If anybody would care to update it further: See http://ncse.com/about/board and http://ncse.com/about/advisory-council for verification. Glenn Branch (talk) 23:24, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Martha J. Heil and Michael McIlwrath are no longer on the board.
 * Richard B. Katskee — Mayer Brown LLP is now on the board.
 * Lorne Trottier is now the vice president of the board, replacing Bernard Winograd (who remains on the board).
 * The Supporters are now called the Advisory Council.
 * Eugenie C. Scott is now the Chair of the Advisory Council.
 * Zack Kopplin (though a friend of NCSE's) is not a member of the Advisory Council.

In addition to the previous changes from 9 January 2014, not yet implemented: See http://ncse.com/about/board for verification. Glenn Branch (talk) 23:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Andrew J. Petto and Bernard Winograd are no longer on the board.
 * Francisco J. Ayala — University of California, Irvine is now on the board.

In addition to the previous changes from 9 January 2014 and 24 April 2014, not yet implemented: See http://ncse.com/about/board and http://ncse.com/about/advisory-council for verification. Glenn Branch (talk) 16:52, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Mark McCaffrey is no longer with NCSE.
 * Peter M. J. Hess, Eric Meikle, and Charles Hargrove are no longer with NCSE, and their positions have been eliminated.
 * Emily Schoerning should be added as Director of Community Organizing and Research.
 * Stephanie Keep should be added as editor, Reports of the National Center for Science Education
 * Michael Mann — Pennsylvania State University should be added to the Advisory Council
 * Neil deGrasse Tyson — American Museum of Natural History should be removed from the Advisory Council.

In addition to the previous changes, not yet implemented: See http://ncse.com/about/board and https://ncse.com/about-us/staff for verification. Glenn Branch (talk) 03:19, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Brian Alters is no longer president and no longer on the board.
 * The president of the board is now Francisco J. Ayala — University of California, Irvine.
 * Lorne Trottier — Matrox is Vice President/Treasurer.
 * Kenneth R. Miller — Brown University, Richard B. Katskee — Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and Barry Polisky (no affiliation) are on the board.
 * Minda Berbeco is no longer with NCSE.
 * Claire Adrian-Tucci is with NCSE as Program Coordinator.
 * That got a bit complex! Sorry about the delay. Done, and think it's all up to date now. dave souza, talk 13:51, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * That looks good. Much obliged! Glenn Branch (talk) 00:40, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

If anyone is interested in updating the staff and supporters: See http://ncse.com/about/board and https://ncse.com/about-us/staff for verification. Glenn Branch (talk) 20:34, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Barbara Forrest is no longer on the board.
 * Vicki Chandler — Minerva Schools at KGI and Naomi Oreskes — Harvard University are now on the board.
 * Kenneth R. Miller — Brown University is now the president of the board.
 * Director of Development Deb Janes is now on staff.
 * Joshua Rosenau is no longer on staff.
 * Eugenie C. Scott should not be listed as the chair of the Advisory Council.
 * Alfred G. Gilman is dead, so † could be placed by his name.
 * I question the need for this long list of Advisory Council Members. Is it possible to create a group for that membership? John.Farquhar (talk) 00:51, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Info Box and Other Improvements
I'd like to update this page a bit beginning with an info box. I'll try to work on that over on my sandbox. John.Farquhar (talk) 00:48, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Further updates
If anyone would be interested in making the following updates, it would be appreciated.


 * Under "Activities and programs," in the 3rd paragraph, Reports is now published quarterly rather than bimonthly. See https://ncse.ngo/rncse for verification.


 * Under staff, Carter and Doctors are no longer with NCSE and their positions no longer exist; Holzman was replaced by Astrid Broertjes; Hollenberg's title is now Office Manager; and Heather Grimes, Program Coordinator, Cari Herndon, Curriculum Specialist, Wendy Johnson, Teacher Support Partnership Specialist, and Blake Touchet, Teacher Support Partnership Specialist, have been added. See https://ncse.ngo/staff for verification.

Glenn Branch (talk) 18:36, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Under board, Trottier, Chandler, and Oreskes are no longer on the board, and the position of vice president no longer exists; Santer is now the secretary; and Maya Garcia, Sarah B. George, Joseph L. Gates Jr., and Jo Handelsman have joined the board. See https://ncse.ngo/board for verification.