Talk:National Education Association

Infobox Union
I added the Infobox Union template. It is still being finalised - and comments/contributions are welcome either at the template page, or at WikiProject Organized Labour.--Bookandcoffee 18:11, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I like the infobox but I am not sure if I like what it does to the layout of the page? Robbie dee 20:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If you like you can add    just before the History section to force it to start after the infobox. Does that help?--Bookandcoffee 04:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

NEA,AFT and the AFL-CIO
Reports of increased NEA-AFT cooperation as well as potential NEA affiliation with the AFL-CIO would represent significant developments in the US labor movement, and have been posted here with relevant sourcing to Wikipedia and to news reports. Please do not delete these without explanation. Robbie dee 20:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I tried to add a bit more info around this subject and flesh it out a bit. I did not intentionally remove anything you wrote, but I did make quite a few substantial edits to this page. I may have inadvertently removed something, but I doubt it. If I did, please accept my apology. (Neaeditor 19:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

Landmark Legal Foundation
The link to the "NEA Accountability Project" does seem topical (although the other Wall St. Journal article linked by the anonymous user was not - it made no mention of the NEA at all). However it would help to have some background on the Landmark Legal Foundation as well - there is no wikipedia article about them currently. Robbie dee 21:31, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The above referenced Wall Street Journal article discusses the AFL-CIO's politics. As NEA chapters will apparently be free to align themselves with the AFL-CIO this is indeed relevent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.166.183.7 (talk) 23:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the WSJ article is relevant. But then this should be discussed in the article itself, and specific links to specific pages and/or articles on the NEA Accountability Project Web site linked to. A generic link to the NEA Accountability Project is not appropriate. (Also, don't forget to sign your comments with ~ .)- Tim1965 20:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

NEA Politics
I have searched high and low on the NEA website and I cannot find any reference where the NEA asserts that it is "nonpartisan" or that it "supports Democrats and Republicans equally." Rather, like most unions, the NEA appears to be pretty solidly aligned with the Democrats on most issues, or to the left of the Democrats.

As such, the criticism from sources such as the Wall St. Journal editorial page, the Landmark legal foundation and Human Events Online, which all clearly identify themselves as right-wing or "conservative" on their own websites, cannot be understood as criticizing the NEA for failing to fulfill any claim of nonpartisanship - because the NEA has never made any such claim.

It rather appears that the critics cited oppose the NEA because they don't like Democrats, and would prefer that the NEA endorse Republicans instead or not endorse any political agenda at all. That's also a valid position and I suppose it is noteworthy enough for some mention in an encyclopedic article, but the basis for the criticism as well as the political perspective of those cited as the source of that criticism should also be noted.

Also, to the extent the NEA is criticized for supporting certain nonpartisan advocacy groups, I think that wikilinks to articles about those groups is informative and topical, so I have provided them. Robbie dee 22:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The true issues here include the identification to the Internal Revenue Service of ALL monies spent for political purposes (treated differently for tax purposes), something Landmark and media sources contend the NEA has been negligent in doing in prior years (see the Landmark link).
 * Insisting on labeling resources as "conservative" or "right-wing" (or "liberal" or "left-wing"?) is both impractical and in itself non-NPOV. Contributers are always free to add contrarian links, if they feel this necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.166.183.7 (talk) 23:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


 * If there are specific, widely held criticisms of the NEA you wish to include, find a source for those criticisms and cite them directly, do not use weasel words like "some people" or unnamed "NEA members and others." Also, please include NEA responses to those criticisms, where available and appropriate, as per Wikipedia's NPOV policy.
 * The particular sources you have linked self-identify as "conservative" or "right-wing" and their political perspective forms the very basis of their criticism. As such, I think it is important to identify their political perspective in this case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.240.27.36 (talk) 01:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Cite criticisms, or responses to criticisms, from notable sources. Fagstein 05:51, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

"NEA Keeps Tilting to the Left, by Phyllis Schlafly, July 25, 2006 this link has popup ads" (maybe delete it or warn) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.104.205.77 (talk) 07:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * [ I see a warning was added. Note, Firefox blocked the pop up. Frankly, I recommend everyone should use FireFox wherever possible. ] --SafeLibraries 03:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This article appears to be written by a disgruntled NEA republican. "Bipartisan NCLB"? Can we see some sources and responses please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.28.41 (talk) 14:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I moved all of these remarks to the "Criticism" section and added a broader, more comprehensive and neutral accounting of NEA's political activities (Neaeditor 19:48, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

One sided links
Why are there several critical sites linked? This article reads as if there is nothing good about the NEA. protohiro 03:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll hazard a guess: The article was written by an anti-NEA author. It clearly needs work (like many labor-related articles). - Tim1965 20:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added a substantial amount of information about NEA's business activities and history in an attempt to add some much needed balance. (Neaeditor 19:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

Mission
I added this entire section, hoping to provided a brief, concise and neutral account of what NEA's business is and has been, historically speaking. (Neaeditor 20:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

Structure and Governance
With this section I hope to provide a sense that NEA is a democratic organization that derives its policies and leadership from the members themselves, who elect their own representatives and leaders and vote on NEA's policies/positions. (Neaeditor 20:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

Criticism
As I mention elsewhere on this page, I moved all of the comments that were formerly under "politics" to this section. Those comments on NEA's politics seemed too one-sided and too critical for a section that ought to be more neutral. I tried not to remove or delete any of the criticisms -- I just moved them and grouped them under what seemed to be the logical categories based on what the various critical remarks throughout the page. However, I did make quite a few additions to the page and made a lot of edits. Something might have been inadvertently deleted, though I doubt it. (Neaeditor 20:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

NEA is prohibited by law to communicate its political positions on its public website. It is permitted to present its political views only on a password-protected area of its website. As a result, the only link I could provide as a reference for the political commentary is to a generic page where NEA asks for a log-in and password. I don't know if this is adequate, but it's the best that can be done (Neaeditor 20:22, 18 June 2007 (UTC))


 * "although it is often categorized as a labor union with strong leftist and liberal leanings, particularly by critics.[2]" Should read, "...especially by critics." Distinguish particulate-ness from especial-ness. This critic categorizes the NEA as critical of wholesome education. Indeed, the NEA has brought the situation of education to a critically dangerous ideology. Supporting so-called same-sex marriage is anything but wholesome or beneficial to the education of our nation's children. The NEA is now officially pro-immorality, pro-licentiousness, pro-death. Jesus's work now effects life in believers. That which is opposite effects death. Viva life. Viva Jesus. Down with death and destruction emanating from the promotion of homosexuality. Down with the NEA. 66.210.33.142 (talk) 20:17, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

In the criticism section, it seems someone has inserted this bit that doesn't go with the rest of the paragraph:

“It has been countered that attacks on NEA and "teacher unions" may be a mask for those who wish to weaken public schools: "If my objective were to dismantle public schools, I would begin by trying to discredit them. I would probably refer to them as 'government' schools..I would never miss an opportunity to sneer at researchers and teacher educators as out-of-touch 'educationists.' Recognizing that it’s politically unwise to attack teachers, I would do so obliquely, bashing the unions to which most of them belong." notes Alfie Kohn.”

In a section on criticism, this seems to be an off-topic attempt to criticize the criticism and should be eliminated. 76.28.181.205 (talk) 17:03, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I removed the above mentioned section due to the fact that it is an obvious attempt to soften criticism and an attempt to bias the reader. I also reverted an edit by the user (131.118.49.86) that switched "conservative" to the "right-wing", another attempt at adding bias. 76.28.181.205 (talk) 17:20, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I have a proposal in the endless edit war between Sparrowhawk64 and HoundofBaskerville: What if we took the final clause of the introduction and moved it out of the introduction, into, say, the criticism section or the section on politics? Then, since the crux of the dispute seems to be over where the criticism comes from, let's attribute it directly - only one source is cited here, let's quote it directly. Should I just make the cange and you can see if you like it? --Thelema12 (talk) 19:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks Thelma for the oppurtunity to discuss the article. I am a little puzzled by your description of a single edit-revert as an "endless edit war," but it is not very important, so I'll skip that. With respect to the edits, the crux of the dispute-if it can be called that-is besides being inaccurate, more importantly, the assertations made by the edit were, vague generalizations that were not verifiable with any reliable third-party sources. That being said,I see no reason a brief statement in the lede cannot be present to offer a little introduction to the criticsm section. Cheerio! HoundofBaskersville (talk) 00:16, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Hound, you are correct that I exaggerated when I said, "endless edit war," and I apologise. You do seem to return every few months to remove the word "conservative" from this same paragraph (Feb. 2011, Oct. 2010). The fact that it repreatedly returns, and that you repeatedly return to remove it, suggests to me that maybe there should be a third way. That's all.--Thelema12 (talk) 21:05, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * No apology necessary. The sporadic edits of mine (like this!) you refer to are a result of a full-time job, other interests, and my own self-admitted laziness. As to the "conservative" part, if you read my previous post, I pointed out the reason for my edit was that the assertation was not in accordance with WP:RS. I could put up and put a footnote of every criticism of the NEA by conservatives, libertarians, independents, moderates liberals, etc. (there's that laziness part again), but that would probably be too long and inappropriate for the lede. If the "third way" you speak of is putting items in sections, "Be Bold"-as they say. But the first way, I think, should always be to adhere to WP:V and WP:RS. Cheerio. HoundofBaskersville (talk) 06:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Overview of article
Recent edits and additions by "Neaeditor" and others threaten to turn this article into a house organ for the union. Some semblance of NPOV needs be maintained if this Wikipedia article is to remain credible! ChulaOne 20:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Before my additions, it was incredibly one-sided and biased against NEA. And I didn't delete any of it. I added facts about the organization; which of those facts are not credible? If and when you find them, make edits. (Neaeditor 12:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC))


 * confining controversy about the NEA to a section far, far down the page is unhelpful and departs rather too drastically from previous editions of this article. ChulaOne 00:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * seems consistent to how criticism is presented on other wikipedia pages Neaeditor (talk) 18:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Your assertion that you didn't delete any criticism Neaeditor is bogus. The entire section has gone from well-sourced important criticsm to redundant, shallow claims which I can only assume will be used as evidence of "unsourced allegations" to whitewash even more of them. If you wish to add information or to post reactions to criticism, fine. Otherwise stop blanket deletions and edits of important material.HoundofBaskersville (talk) 01:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I may have reorganized the criticism, grouping like things together, but I never deleted any of it.Neaeditor (talk) 18:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * About the "Affiliation" line in the Infobox... as I understand it, this page has been grouped under the "organized labor portal," and the Infobox here is intended to provide information about NEA within the context of other organized labor groups. "Affiliation" refers to our relationships with other organized labor groups -- we don't have any formal ones; for example, we are not affiliated with the AFL-CIO. We are an independent labor group. There is no question NEA is a left-leaning organization with close ties to the Democratic Party, so you could say we are affiliated with them; but the Infobox is not the place for this thought. There is a whole section on political activities where it would be better placed. Neaeditor (talk) 18:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Affiliation
I changed the "affiliation" label back to "independent" (it had been set to "democratic" by Steve1240). NEA supports political candidates who share similar views on public education. Most often, they are Democrats, but they are not exclusively Democrats. NEA also support Republicans -- Mike Simpson, Richard Lugar, Olympia Snowe, Jim Gerlach, John M. McHugh and Bernard Sanders were all supported by NEA. Neaeditor 21:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with you Neaeditor, but for a different reason! The affiliation field is actually used for union affiliations. The NEA is independent, but it is independent as opposed to being an affiliated with the AFL-CIO, or Change to Win Federation. See Template talk:Infobox Union for details. Cheers, --Bookandcoffee 21:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree, the Nea has put much effort into distancing themselves as a Union. They're fundamentally a political institution with the hope of rallying and lobbying to get political change. Shouldn’t affiliation be a refection of their primary political purpose? The Nea overwhelmingly contributes to Democrats and lobbies for Democratic ideals... which makes them de facto Democratic party affiliates. And now in mist of the presidential election, they’re fully backing the Democratic Obama. It doesn’t lessen affiliation to occasionally cross partisan lines, just as Democratic presidents or congressman on occasion vote for a Republican bill, such small bipartisanship doesn’t make them any less of an Democrat affiliate. So even if a very small percentage of the Nea recommendations were for Republicans, it doesn’t change the fact that they’re primary ideals, choices, and actions are of a socialist nature and fundamentally Democratic. If you read where the Nea stands on political issues and understand the difference between the Democratic and Republican parties, there's no way the Nea could be considered anything other than far left Democratic. The reason why they don’t openly declare such is because it’s likely that about half their teachers are going to be Republican, which would threaten their dues. Jadon (talk) 21:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Homeschooling / other edits
Deleted the hopelessly biased comment about the NEA's opposition to homeschooling. Homeschooling is not something that has necessarily been proven to be 'better' than public or other institutional education, it is simply different. I hope no one minds this. Lequis (talk) 23:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Also edited the first section to include "or other union federations"-- the AFL-CIO is not the only federation the NEA could be associated with. Perhaps I am nitpicking. Lequis (talk) 23:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

AFT and NEA, colleges
Do university professors have to join unions? I know that elementary and secondary teaching is virtually a closed shop, but is that so with those who teach at colleges, even private ones? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.30.207 (talk) 21:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Interesting question. Most professors belong to the AAUP or equivalent. The money all ends up in the same hands.HoundofBaskersville (talk) 01:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It depends upon what state you work in -- both for university professors and for elementary and secondary teachers. In right-to-work states, state law prohibits compulsory membership. In other states, there is "agency fee" -- which stipulates that when union membership among elementary and secondary teachers in a given school district hits a certain threshold (say 85%), then the law allows the union to garnish wages from the remaining 15%. The rationale is that since the union is negotiating pay and benefits that apply to all teachers, regardless of whether or not they are members, the 10% shouldn't be allowed to free-load off the others. At the university level, this concept of agency fee also applies in some states, but it may work slightly different than in elementary and secondary schools. Neaeditor (talk) 18:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Link State Affiliates?
What about adding a list to this page of state affiliates of NEA? Some of them, like the California Teachers Association and the Colorado Education Association, already have Wikipedia pages. They link to here in the affiliations box, but it's a one-way link. --Thelema12 (talk) 21:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I added the list. Also, I have started working on a stub for a Utah Education Association page at User:Thelema12/Utah Education Association and I welcome any feedback.--Thelema12 (talk) 19:17, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It looks like a laundry list that really has no contribution to the prose of the article. Perhaps this should be a stand alone list, but in its current form passes the boundary of WP:Undue weight
 * Cheerio HoundofBaskersville (talk) 14:08, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback. What I'm trying to address is the problem of one-way linking: from California Teachers Association I can reach the NEA page by clicking affiliations in the info box, but there's no link from NEA back to CTA. I created a piped link to the section from the first paragraph. If I were to do a 'stand-alone list,' would it be as a separate article? How should I format it? The Association of American Educators site has a grid format - would something like that work better? Should I create a page called List of National Education Association State Affiliates? Thanks! --Thelema12 (talk) 16:34, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * There already appears to be a List of Education trade unions article set up. A simple link to this should suffice. Cheerio HoundofBaskersville (talk) 14:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks - at your suggestion, I have moved state affiliates to List of Education trade unions, and removed them from the article.--Thelema12 (talk) 19:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Microsoft lobbying?
http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2232488/teacher-slams-linux —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.44.154.93 (talk) 22:30, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

GEM now "The Gateway to 21st Century Skills"
Seems like there should be a section on The Gateway to Educational Materials (GEM). From their site: "The Gateway (formerly known as GEM) was developed with funds from the U.S. Department of Education to provide teachers with learning resources created by over 750 publicly funded organizations. Oversight of the development of both the underlying GEM technologies and the Gateway website was provided by the US Department of Education with the guidance from the contributing member population in the way of an advisory board. In 2005 the Gateway’s U.S. Dept. of Ed. funding ceased and the National Education Association stepped in to preserve this national education asset." http://www.thegateway.org/about/gemingeneral/about-gem

"GEM allows you to quickly and easily search for educational resources, such as lesson plans and curriculum units. GEM draws from some of the country's best museums, universities, and government programs, including NASA, the Smithsonian Institution in Washington DC, the National Science Foundation, and the Exploratorium in San Francisco." http://www.learningcommons.org/educators/library/gem.php

I actually sort of think GEM/The Gateway should have its own page and then this page could summarize it more briefly and link to the main page. Thoughts? Brianwc (talk) 20:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

self published sources are OK here
Wiki rules clearly allow use of NEA published items when dealing w NEA. Please do not defy the rules here. See WP:SPS "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as: the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim; it does not involve claims about third parties; it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source; there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; the article is not based primarily on such sources." Rjensen (talk) 16:39, 24 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Right, I'm in total agreement. The problem is that this material is quite clearly "unduly self-serving." It's promotional. It makes exceptional claims about the NEA's alleged involvement in civil rights issues, etc., and as such requires secondary sourcing for verification. Safehaven86 (talk) 16:47, 24 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Also: the one cited source in the section doesn't immediately appear to verify any of the content in the timeline in question. It may have at one time verified the content about same-sex rights, as that's where the citation is placed. So our problem isn't even that we only have a self-published source for all of this content about the NEA's apparently extraordinary record of achievement...it's that we have no sources at all. Safehaven86 (talk) 16:50, 24 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Sourcing is an issue to solve, not an invite to erase. I do not see "exceptional claims". It's a very old, large, powerful and politically active group. The proper procedue is to request citations. Rjensen (talk) 19:57, 24 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Per WP:VERIFIABILITY, unsourced material may be removed at any time. As you can see from my edit history on this article, I've removed some unsourced material, added some citation needed tags, and added quite a few secondary sources. When I discovered the article, over 80% of the articles citations were to the NEA's own website. There are many reliable scholarly sources out there covering the NEA, and there's no reason so much of the article should be self-sourced. Safehaven86 (talk) 21:42, 24 September 2015 (UTC)


 * yes I quite agree. When an interesting event is mentioned it should invite the editors to find a source. Rjensen (talk) 21:44, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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"KEA" section a prank?
There's a section on the current page about a supposed subsidiary of NEA called "KEA"; the section claims it stands for "Kids Education Association" and has a $163 million budget. The section has no supporting documentation though, and it is riddled with grammatical and spelling mistakes. Finally, no mention of this organization can be found anywhere else online. Perhaps it's a prank of some kind? I'm new to Wikipedia or I'd have deleted it myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.48.255.235 (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Money and Politics
— Assignment last updated by SRP1828 (talk) 19:59, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

To Add Under the "Political Activities" Section:

(2010 - Donated against 4 candidates: Ken Buck (R-CO), Dino Rossi (R-WA), Pat Toomey (R-PA), and Rand Paul (R-KY).

2012 - Donated against 4 candidates: Richard Tisei (R-MA), George Allen (R-VA), Jeff Flake (R-AZ), and Tommy Thompson (R-WI). Donated to one candidate: Tammy Baldwin (D-WI).

2014 - Donated against 9 candidates: Thom Tillis (R-NC), Tom Cotton (R-AR), Dan Sullivan (R-AL), Joni Ernst (R-IA), Bruce Poliquin (R-ME), Cory Gardner (R-CO), Steve Southerland (R-FL), Lee Zeldin (R-NY), George Allen (R-VA).

2016 - Donated against 6 candidates: Todd Young (R-IN), Kelly Ayote (R-NH), Pat Toomey (R-PA), Bruce Poliquin (R-ME), Thom Tillis (R-NC), and Dan Sullivan (R-AL). Donated to 4 candidates: Hillary Clinton (D-Presidential), Katie McGinty (D-PA), Denise Juneau (D-MT), Bruce Braley (D-IA).) (“NEA Advocacy Fund.” Ballotpedia. https://ballotpedia.org/NEA_Advocacy_Fund (September 24, 2023).)

2020 - Donated $1.83m to Democrat campaigns, while only donating $41k to Republican campaigns. ( A 501tax-exempt, charitable organization 1100 13th Street, NW, and Suite 800 Washington. “PAC Profile: National Education Assn.” OpenSecrets. https://www.opensecrets.org/political-action-committees-pacs/national-education-assn/C00003251/summary/2020 (September 14, 2023).) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JordanChase06 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Reorganizing
I was taken aback at how disorganized this article was. Information on the history was scattered throughout multiple sections. There were redundant sections talking about the same topic. Among other problems. The root of the chaos might well be the edit war referenced above, which took place back in 2007-2008. It's a little embarrassing that it hasn't been cleaned up in the intervening sixteen years... but hopefully this can at least be a start.

The section on political activities is currently a massive bulleted list in chronological order. It might be worth trying to convert that to prose and integrating it into the general History. The Criticism section's description of "the gay rights agenda" is what we in 2024 call cringe; I don't remember what we called it in 2007, but it's not worded well. And anyway the NEA is promotes LGBT rights very overtly now, and "promoting a gay rights agenda" doesn't seem like the kind of thing it can be "accused" of... it's simply what it does. I'll see what I can do to improve the article a little further. Fishal (talk) 05:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)