Talk:National Football League Players Association/Archive 1

1982 Strike
This section is called "1982-1984 Strike", but there's no discussion of any events after 1982. Looking at the edit history, the change appears to be a simple case of vandalism. Anson2995 13:09, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

This BS needs to end
The NFLPA has practically destroyed professional football, with all that collusion junk going on (everyone knows the dangers of having a union just look at the whole jimmy hoffa conspiracy). Seems like the only one not listening to them now days is the "Real" super bowl winners. No worry this year the Chiefs are going to win the super bowl, Why? Because it all started with their first round pick, and what Carl and Herm said after everyone left the draft-day party at the chiefs practice facility. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.216.141.167 (talk) 13:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC). 64.216.141.167 13:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

1974 NFL Strike
article could use some info about 74 strike, a lot of people forget about that one — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.169.161.1 (talk) 17:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Trying to get the article to GA
Hey everyone, my goal is to put in some time and get this article up to the GA standards. While I realize that this article is already fairly complete, I plan on making some big improvements, particularly in relation to the 2011 lockout and sources. I currently work in the sports/entertainment/film industry, and I am fully aware of Wikipedia's policy when it comes to conflict of interest. Because of this potential conflict of interest, I will be drafting any changes on my user page, and then posting them for revision on the talk page before implementing them. Additionally, I will be sure to conduct myself in accordance with Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources and neutral point of view. The draft is currently incomplete, but I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for the current article. Are there any areas that could use some improvements? If anyone has suggestions, I'd be happy to incorporate them into my edits. Thanks, and I look forward to improving the page. --TravisBernard (talk) 19:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey guys, the draft is getting closer to completion, and I'd love to hear some input. The draft can be found here, and there's also a discussion taking place about it on the WP:NFL talk page.  Some of the key things I revised were the 2011 lockout section, introduction paragraph, leadership section, and references.  Take a look, and feel free to join the conversation. Thanks. --TravisBernard (talk) 16:08, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Merge request from Bert Bell
This article essentially writes the foundation of the NFLPA was in 1956. The Bert Bell goes back to 1943 and should not be getting into it so deeply. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 13:18, 30 September 2011 (UTC) :The NFL Draft can be broken up historically in at least 2 ways. One, prior to fulltime coverage of it on TV and after it. Or maybe three ways, the early draft, after the original draft method was ruled unconstitutional in the courts, and commencing with fulltime TV coverage it. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 13:27, 30 September 2011 (UTC) :There's lots of fun stuff missing. Missing is Wellington Mara bogarting the 1st draft pick circa 1939. The bonus pick (lottery pick) in the draft that Congress, generally speaking, forced Bell to rescind in 1957. Weeb Eubank stealing all the Cleveland Browns draft picks for the Baltimore Colts months before he went to the Colts as head coach. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 13:25, 30 September 2011 (UTC) wrong article oops. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 13:26, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I kept most of the changes you suggested, so thanks again. You can take a look at the most up to date version of the draft here. Most of what I changed is post 1987, and it's mainly formatting. --TravisBernard (talk) 19:04, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Two editors are actively engaged in improving this article on one of their sandboxes and are planning on bringing in changes quickly. I am removing the merge request from this page since its an unnecessary burden. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 17:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Broad series of revision
I originally made of draft of this page on my user talk page because as previously noted, I have a conflict of interest. After seeing that there is a large interest in editing these page, I decided to move the conversation to the live page. The article now reflects the draft that several editors worked on while it still existed on my user talk page. Conservation has previously existed in the following areas:
 * On my user page and user talk page.
 * On the WikiProject:NFL talk page.
 * On the WikiProject Labor talk page

As a few others have pointed out, let's keep the conversation in one place. Thanks. --TravisBernard (talk) 19:03, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have performed a histmerge and the revisions from User:TravisBernard/NFLPA can now be found in the history of this article.  Eagles   24/7  (C)  19:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help. I really appreciate it. --TravisBernard (talk) 19:26, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Early history
"The players originally began to unionize because they had to play exhibition games without receiving pay." the citations after that statement don't match the statement. I am going to revert the statement back to what it was to match the citations. It's generally not a good idea to rephrase a statement and leave citations intact. If statements are rephrased, read the sources and see if it matches. If you want to rephrase, then find a new citation. It is entirely possible the statement being rephrased does not belong or is not pertinent.

"For some players, this frustration resulted in trades." This implies there were other players traded over voicing their displeasure over not receiving exhibition pay. There is no record of that. I am deleting that statement and reverting it back to what it was. FYI, the chicago bears players received exhibition pay in the 1950s, although sources are bereft when they started receiving pay, the 30's, the 40's, or 50's. Furthermore, circumstantial evidence suggests Rooney was paying his players for exhibition games at least as early as 1940.

"Although most of the NFLPA's requests.." I have a source (either Staudohar or Berry, I forget which) that says all of their requests were met. At the very least it becomes one of those, depending on sources thingies. FYI, Berry and Staudohar, do conflict each other(which is kind of cool because they Staudohar co-authored a book together)

Let's remove teams the players played for in the 1950s as I don't see how that is pertinent. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 09:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

FYI, it cost the NFL, between 1951 and 1953, $200,000 to defend their blackout policy. It's a safe bet it cost the NFL a lot more to defend themselves against Radovich as that went all the way to the Supreme Court and lasted about 10 years, although I never read how much it cost. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 10:16, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

"Their requests, published in December 1956..." (Staudohar, p. 181) implies their entire list of requests went into a contemporary newspaper.66.234.33.8 (talk) 10:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Since no complaints, I will be moving forward on these items. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Bell's recognition of the NFLPA before Congress is the absolute key moment in his life. I am guessing that it will be amid the 3rd paragraph when I bail out. So I would expect to leave a baby 3rd paragraph for others to tie into. I don't know what the subsections of the articles will be: precertification, pre-nflpa, pre-1959ers, pre Bert Bell National Football League Retirement Plan, whatever. The Bert Bell article will use the term Bert Bell National Football League Retirement Plan ...I don't think this article can afford to spend so many bytes on that phrase :) 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:23, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * the Bert Bell National Football League Retirement Plan is a crucial part of his legacy...so I am guaranteed to use the term. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 22:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Could you do a subsection under early history, briefly explain this, and then link out to the Bert Bell article? --TravisBernard (talk) 16:51, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, no author explicitly says that. I just paraphrase authors and reiterate the examples of how authors wrote it affected him. It would be complete original research to say it was the "key moment in his life", I wouldn't have a leg to stand on trying to defend it. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 17:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Coenen, p. 96. reports one player's salary was cut in 1/2 because of the implementation of the 1936 draft. Also, in 1934, players salaries on the Bears were all cut in 1/2 because Halas claimed the Bears were going broke, when he actually made $50,000 that year according to Dan Fortmann. I can not include this unless the NFLPA knew about it and I do not think they did. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 16:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

George Atallah
I was searching through Wikipedia, and I noticed that there's no page for George Atallah, the Assistant Executive Director of External Affairs for the NFLPA. He was DeMaurice Smith's first hire, and was one of the main spokesmen for the NFLPA during the Lockout. Do you think he deserves an article in Wikipedia?

Here's some more information about him: http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/george-atallah/

Thanks. --TravisBernard (talk) 16:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, at the very least, if you think he says something really important that you think is essential to the article then yes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.33.8 (talk) 18:32, 7 October 2011 (UTC) 66.234.33.8 (talk) 18:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It might actually work better as a subsection in the 2011 NFL Lockout article. I'll do some research and see what else I can find.--TravisBernard (talk) 18:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wise, specific guys in specific articles (that lockout). 66.234.33.8 (talk) 20:46, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Paul Brown
Using Paul Brown about why Miller left or was fired was a bad job by me; I trust someone will fix that by using a better source. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 18:41, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Oriard

 * 1) I reformatted them to include page #s. I make no claim that they belong in the article
 * 2) Oriad uses Lomax as one of his sources. Lomax writes in his notes that Paul D. Staudohar is the scholarly heavy hitter on these labor and sports issues. Um, even I can understand (and I like reading ) Staudohar and I have the reading comprehension of a donut. Lomax lists Staudohars other books in his notes.  66.234.33.8 (talk) 20:28, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * 3) Oriard's King Football is going to come in because of a statement he makes that media were largely silent in the 1950s about the NFLPA. The NFLPA basically pops up out of thin air, as far as the books I read, in 1956. There has to be some author out there that explains this. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 20:52, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Next Steps: Mid 70's
Thanks to everyone for the help on the article. I think the next steps need to be working on the mid 70's/early 80's. I was reading through it, and I think there are a number of inaccuracies. For example, one of the cited publications in the history has the NFLPA going for percentage of the gross in 1974 as opposed to 1982. This is a rather significant oversight, and I'm sure there are a number of other similar errors. I might have to go back to the library to verify most of the claims because I don't own these references and I am not as familiar with this information as I am the 1990's and 2000's. I was also reading through the NFLPA's history on their website, and while we can't use it as a source, the information varies for the mid 70's and 80's. Does anyone have these references or know this information very well? Thanks. --TravisBernard (talk) 12:54, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Bert Bell
I am going to come in hard on this hard very soon. I want to submit Bert Bell for GA review because I need help and direction. So expect changes in this article between 1946 and 1959 very soon and expect them to occur very quickly. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 20:59, 13 October 2011 (UTC) And I'm not signing my name anymore, that's for people with accounts. Bots sign my name :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.33.8 (talk) 21:03, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Congressional record link
To download all of the Congressional testimony: go to your library, logon to its wifi if it has one, click the link, then download it. It that link is tons of informations, including the NFL constitution as it stood in 1957. For this article, what's probably the most important is that Congress entered into the record the civil lawsuits players lodge between 1950 and 1954, a dry spell for the NFLPA; it fills a whole. I have not seen this fact on wikipedia list of resources for wikipedians. I'll double check and then post it. It's a treasure of sophisticated law journals, econonic journals, etc., and it's all free.

I am staying away from any testimony though because I consider that not vetted and primary source stuff. But any letter sent to that committee, and that committee chooses to enter it in the Congressional record, then it's open season. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.33.8 (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Vic Janowicz
Vic was a player for the Redskins who was in a car accident in the 1956 preseason. Marshall had the Redskins drop him from the Redskin payroll while he was recuperating in the hospital in November 1956. It's in Levy's book and here and other newspapers. The Washington Redskins players had to pool money together to support his family while he was in the hospital. I do not see this recorded in any of the nflpa stuff so it looks to be original research if its included. Unless it is found in several newspapers. If its found in the New York Times, Daily News, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, San Francisco Chronical and Los Angeles Times, then I think it should be included and is not original research. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 15:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Tom Condon and Jeff Van Note
I added Tom Condon and Jeff Van Note to the post-merger leadership. They are listed on the NFLPA website, but I couldn't find a reliable source to cite this information. I think that it's clear that these individuals were a part of the leadership. If anyone has a reliable source to back up this information, feel free to add it. Thanks. --TravisBernard (talk) 21:06, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Comments
I've done some copyediting and have a few comments. It's in good shape, generally.
 * Lede:
 * I would suggest expanding the lede by a section and telling more about the NFLPA's history, both before and after recognition.
 * Early history
 * "a lack of support both morally" If you are hard up for moral support, you are really in it.  Suggest rephrase.
 * Recognition
 * What is the Retirement Board? If it is capitalized, it should be explained.
 * Upshaw era
 * If I recall correctly, the failure of the 1987 strike was in part because the players were increasingly crossing the picket lines. This should probably be mentioned.
 * 2011 lockout
 * I'd say something about what went on during the lockout, the win in the district court plus loss in the 8th circuit, players couldn't use team facilities and teams couldn't sign free agents. That kinda thing.
 * Bountygate
 * You need to say something about the current status.
 * Something, at some point should be said about the challenges to Smith's leadership.

Again, a good effort.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:12, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

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CARL WERNICKE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.6.72.240 (talk) 00:45, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Concussion
Suggest the article Concussion be included as part of this encyclopedic history of the NFL. --lbeben 00:52, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Eddie Meador
Eddie Meador should have been listed as NFLPA President, 1969 to 1970, pre-merger  Info can be found under the link to his Wikipedia bio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yellerdog104 (talk • contribs) 14:19, 1 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Hello—I'm currently working on behalf of the NFLPA to work with editors to make some updates to Wikipedia articles that relate to their mission. Because of my financial COI, I'd like to make it clear up front that I don't make any direct edits myself.


 * I took a look into this, and it does appear that Eddie Meador was briefly president-elect of the NFLPA, prior to the merger, based on this source. Because of this, I think we should update the sentence about Meador to reflect this. Currently, the sentence reads: "The NFL players wanted Ed Meador to become president of the newly combined association while the AFL players wanted Jack Kemp."


 * I'd like to suggest that re-word this for clarity: "The NFL players wanted Ed Meador—who was the president-elect of the NFLPA prior to the merger—to become president of the newly combined association while the AFL players wanted Jack Kemp", adding in the source listed above as a citation.


 * What do other think? If this looks okay, can someone go ahead and make the update to the article? Cheers, ChrisPond (Talk · COI) 17:29, 10 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you both for bringing my attention to this matter. I have changed the article to reflect this newly-found information. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 05:23, 11 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Hey The Writer 2.0, thanks so much for this and your other edits! One quick thing—I see that you removed Matt Light from the list of executive committee members, based on the NFLPA's website. Although Light did briefly leave the committee, he's actually back on it, and the NFLPA has now updated their website to again include his name. Given this, could you go ahead and add Light back in? Thanks! ChrisPond (Talk · COI) 14:22, 12 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Done. -- The Writer 2.0 Talk 18:04, 13 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Great—thanks again for your help! ChrisPond (Talk · COI) 18:21, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Updating DeMaurice Smith era section
Hi there! I have a proposed update to suggest for the DeMaurice Smith era (2009-present) section of this article to include the Board of Representatives electing DeMaurice Smith for a third term in March 2015. I also wonder if we can add a subsection there on the new policies on substance abuse and performance-enhancing drugs. I am a paid consultant for the NFLPA, here on their behalf, so will not make any edits myself. However, I posted my suggestions below for editors to review and make the changes if they agree.

Here's the proposed updated section with my changes shown in green and the markup to hopefully make it easier to place the edits in the article if they're reasonable:

Would someone be willing to take a look at these proposals and make these additions if they look ok? Thanks, 16912 Rhiannon (Talk · COI) 13:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Changes look good to me; I've added them to the article.  Toa   Nidhiki05  18:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Toa, looks great! My request here is complete. 16912 Rhiannon (Talk &middot; COI) 20:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC)