Talk:National Liberation Front (Macedonia)

Ohrana
Ohrana ware Bulgarians!Do not write about them as Macedonians! Jingby 10:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I wrote that they were Bulgarian propagandists. Create another article and name it Ohrana. I will put a link to you article, but do not vandalise this article. Revizionist 17:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how SNOF redirects here. If anything SNOF should be the main article since it is both chronologically prior and the father of NOF while the Komitati and Okhrana are very relevant to both since most of the former's members were absorbed into SNOF so there should be a brief description of that linking to the main Ukrana article. Creating separate articles for both is content spamming since most info is repeated.

Xenovatis (talk) 11:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Anatomy of a dispute
Dear colleagues Wikipedians, let us discuss in a civilized manner the issues that are making some of us constantly changing the original article that I have written. I’m open to suggestions. I already agreed with our colleague Jingiby to crate another article about the Ohrana and not to spam NOF with it. And he did. I also put a link to his article. So, this is what Wikipedains call fair solution.

Please let me now what are the other issues, we may solve them togheter. BUT PLEASE WRITE HERE, BEFORE YOU CHANGE SOMETHING. Thanks in advance Revizionist 17:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Chapter by chapter
Gentlemen, I believe we are very close to a civilized solution. Please see the first two chapters: Occupation of Greece in World War II and SNOF. I also added references from the materials I used. If you agree with the stated, we may proceed with the next chapters. Revizionist 10:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Changes
I have made some changes according to Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles) and removed Slavomacedonian ultranationalistic claims taken by this pseudohistory site (historyofmacedonia.org). Considering this nationalistic site as a valid source is like using Hrisi Avgi. I will add more infos as soon as I have the respective sources. Kapnisma ? 10:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm happy to inform you that I agree with 95% of the changes you made in the article. First I must add that I replaced the places where it was stated just "Macedonians" with "ethnic Macedonains" (containing link to the article wich states that the athnic Macedonains' language is Slavic and so on). Second, I agree with the removal of some words like "physical destruction", "genocyd", and so on - I would have excluded them myselve If I had time enoght to concentrate on the article. But I must say that i won't change the name "Democratic forces", for that is the official name of the DSE (Dimokratiki Stratos ti Ellada) and her followers. Signomi gia to lathos, kai euharisto poli gia tin vohtheia sas. Thanks for the help. Revizionist 14:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome, since you talk Greek then, και εγώ δεν έχω πρόβλημα με το ethnic Macedonians αντί του Macedonian Slavs ή του Slavomacedonian από τη στιγμή που το άρθρο μιλάει για αυτούς. Θα προσθέσω πολλά στοιχεία για το SNOF όταν επιστρέψω από τις διακοπές και βρώ τα αντίστοιχα βιβλία. Αναφορικά στο historyofmacedonia.org, σε παρακαλώ μην εντάσσεις στο άρθρο ψευδοιστορικά sites. Θα ήθελα επίσης να γράψεις τις εκδόσεις απο το βιβλίο "Σαραντα χρονια του ΚΚΕ 1918-1958" που αναφέρεις ώστε να το ρίξω μια ματιά.

Kapnisma ? 13:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

As I have said you continue adding Greek language references without providing additional infos (author,were it was published,etc) so that we can also check them, and judging from the fact that you use latin alphabet (even so you are making mistakes)I seriously doupt that you can read Greek at all, so why are you doing it? Unless you DO provide the additional informations I will revert them as unproved Kapnisma ? 21:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ohi, Ohi sanadelfo mou. Kathalavenw 70% apo avto po grafeis. Ti einai "ekdoseis". Alla OK, na milame agglika. I often go to the Archives of Macedonia, where I find materials and books written by NOF and DSE veterans (both Ethnic Macedonian and Greek). Some of the books are translated in english and Macedonian by the Archives itself. And some parts of the books are also translated in english and published in different books and magasines. I especially like reading Rizospastis articles and the memoires of Markos Vafijadis which I have in croatian translation. P.S. How do you like the article. Do you have and objections now? Please write to explane me. This is a very important article which explains too all of us that Greeks and Ethnic Macedonians are brothers and can be brothes if they have the same goals, and have mutual understandidng (like you and me). Regards Revizionist 09:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

What difference does it make if the references are Greek? Not everyone can read Greek, did you think about that? 203.59.65.185 12:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Mutual agreement
Dear fellow Wikipedians I inform you that the NPOV Template was excluded. Please write the new point of views and questions here on the talk page. With respect. Revizionist 12:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear colleagues, I would like to accent the fact that NOF are not Greek Communist Part members. The fact that they had 6 months negotiations for the unification of forces explains everything. NOF had 2 congresses: in 1947 and in 1949. Revizionist 17:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

NOF members

 * NOF-its were not Greek Communist Party members. They were independent from 1945 till mid 1946 when they united with the DSE. Till the end of the Civil War they had thair own independent organizations, schools, theatres, newspapers. NOF had 2 congresses. Risto Kirjazovski in his book "Македонската политичка емиграција од Егејскиот дел на Македонија во Источна Европа" says:
 * "Macedonians from Aegean Macedonia were put before the alternative: to resist and fight against the destructive terror and genocide, or to seek shelter in the neighboring countries. The Macedonians chose the hardest, but the most glorious path, the path of their ancestors - the struggle for survival and human rights. The armed resistance of the Macedonians against the pressure of the reactionary government in Athens began just after the Varkiza agreement - outside and independently from the Communist Party of Greece"
 * So in the beginning of the article the part that says that they were KKE members will be excluded. They fought together with the DSE and KKE after 1946, but as an organization independent from the KKE. Regards Revizionist 10:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyediting
Hi, I've just spend an hour or so copy editing this article. The standard of English was only fair in the article, so my main concern was to get the text into something acceptable. Along the way, I worked on removing superfluous wiki links. A term (and we link terms, not common nouns) only really needs to be linked once; we don't have to link terms that surface throughout the article over and over again. I also spelled out acronyms (i.e. KKE) when they are mentioned first, and use the acronyms thereafter.

I also had to remove POV language. It is POV to refer to one side that participated in the Greek Civil War as the 'monarchofascist' and the other as 'democratic'. To avoid this, I simply refer to one side as the "government forces" and the other as the "DSA forces". It's the fairest solution.

Regarding the list of sources, I would suggest that the places of publication, dates, etc., be translated into English. It might also be an idea to translate the title of each source into English, but to place this in brackets after the original.--Damac 12:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

"(60 per cent of the DSE was composed of ethnic Macedonians)"
I am veeeeeeery far from being convinced of the validity of this statement...Please give an exact quote from the stated source...

(Getas75 (talk) 20:46, 29 March 2008 (UTC))

I find it ridiculous to claim that all SNOF members were 'Macedonian'. There were thousands of former SNOF fighters who escaped to Bulgaria and claimed they were Bulgarian. Up until the 1980s there were "Greek Political Immigrant Clubs" in many Bulgarian cities and towns. --Vladko (talk) 06:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

All of the members of both the SNOF and the NOF were ethnic Macedonians. They wrote in Macedonian language, using the official cyrillic alphabet of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia. Both KKE, official Greek, and American sources confirm this. --Revizionist (talk) 12:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Slavic toponyms and Greek border controls
I think an explanation is needed as to why Greece refuses entry to those whose passports list Greek places of birth in a language other than Greek. It's not because Greece dislikes Slavic names, otherwise no one born in a Slavophone country would ever be allowed in. I also wonder how the border guards on the other side would feel about someone's Greek passport listing Μοναστήρι as their place of birth instead of Bitola. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 12:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Isn't it standard practice that passports are written in the language of the state issuing them? I'm sure my dad's passport says Troppau. Or were these people citizens of other countries? Anyway, about the other issue, the language name: there's no disambiguation need here, as the whole paragraph is about the opposition of "Greek" and (ethnic) "Macedonian"; Greek dialects are nowhere to be seen in this article; no reader is realistically in danger of misunderstanding that. And the language is called "Macedonian", like it or not; if those names were written in the passports they were presumably intended to represent the "Macedonian" forms, not some vague nonexisting "Slavic dialects of Greece" forms. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:25, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * "Macedonian" isn't the language of Australia or Canada, where many if not most of these "Aegean Macedonians" actually come from and on whose passports they travel. Let's not fool ourselves here; their decision to declare "Lerin" as their place of birth, for example, is a deliberate political statement, especially when their original Greek identity documents list it as Florina. As for the part about Greek dialects being nowhere to be seen, that's not the point; that there is more than one definition of the term "Macedonian names" regarding places in Greece can hardly be disputed. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 13:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I can live with "Slavic Macedonian". But the fact that it's a political statement makes the "Macedonian" part (in the ethnic/national language sense) of it all the more important. It's crucial to what it is a political statement of, right? And I'll oppose using "Slavic language (Greece)", here or elsewhere, as if it implied that was a language different from Macedonian, which it is not. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is full of false statements,and promotes racial hate.Slav communists and greek communists were brothers,and the object of national liberation front was n t the creation of a country name MACEDONIA,but the revolution and socialism,WITHOUT borders and nationalistic hates.so please stop doing propaganda,and respect the historical truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.129.229.253 (talk) 18:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That is true, there was no ethnic hatred between ethnic Macedonian and ethnically Greek socialists during the Civil War, but would you be so kind as to tell us exactly which passages in the article promote racial hatred? Köbra Könverse 08:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Kekrops, Macedonian is an official language in Australia (one of the languages that are taught in schools there). As for the Macedonian and Greek communists, of course there was no hatred between them. Nowhere in this article is there written that there was hatred. On the contrary, the Greek Communist Party gave the Macedonians in Greece organized in NOF the right to self-determination. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 12:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * KKE was not competent to grant the "Macedonians" in SNOF the "right" (??) to self-determination.--Dexippus (talk) 18:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Zachariadis says that if the DSE wins the Civil War, the Macedonians will have their solution of their national question as they wish and their right to self-determination would be respected. He also states that the ethnic Macedonian fighters organized in their NOF are giving a crucial contribution to the DSE cause. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 13:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is one sided POV and in fact historically inaccurate and full of propaganda
FIRST: You "forgot" to mention that SNOF was formed in Kastoria (October 1943) and in Florina (November 1943) as a result of 3 factors; negotiations between: 1) Titos's envoy in the Yugoslav and Greek regions of Macedonia, Zvetozar-Vukmanovic Tempo and 2) The military leaders of the Greek Popular Liberation Army (ELAS) and the Communist Party of Greece (KKE). 3) And specifically Leonidas Stringos and Sveta Uzunovski in August 1943 near Yannitsa, Greece.

The aim was to co-ordinate resistance movements against the German Nazis. The Bulgarian occupation forces in the Serbian part of Macedonia were received as liberators and pro-Bulgarian feeling ran high in the early stages of the occupation. Neither the Communists' position regarding a separate Macedonian nation nor the idea of a Yugoslav federation met with much response from the Slav population, which nurtured pro-Bulgarian sentiments. The local Communists, led by M. Satorov, splintered off from the Communist Party of Yugoslavia and joined the Bulgarian Labour Party (which was Communist), with the slogan “One state, one party". The subsequent dissatisfaction with the occupation authorities was due to social factors (high-handedness, heavy taxation, contempt for local sensitivities) rather than national ones. This was also why Tito's resistance movement in Yugoslav Macedonia failed to develop. See Tempo's speech on 30 January 1945 in Belgrade, PRO FO 371/48181, R2448/11/67, Maclean to Foreign Office, No 121, Belgrade, 31 lan. 1945.

However, the aim of Yugoslavia and Tempo was to instill a Slav-Macedonian national identity (different from the Bulgarian komitadji fascist influence) among the slavophone Greeks of Greek Macedonia as well. This was to promote Yugoslavia's views on Greek Macedonia. Tempo brought the idea of a unified Greek and Yugoslav Macedonian communist federation to the table with Andreas Tzimas (KKE representative in the summer of 1943). But Andreas Tzimas would not sign any such document. See RCHIDNI (Rossijskij Centr Hranenija i Izutenija Dokumentov NovejPej Istorii), F. 495, Op. 74, D. 177, L. 60, Fitin (Director of Soviet espionage) to Dimitrov, 18 August 1944.

The idea represented by Tempo and the newly-established Yugoslav Communist Party gave priority to battling against any form of manifest or latent pro-Bulgarian sentiment in Yugoslav Macedonia and to bringing the region into the Yugoslav federation. This policy was chiefly supported by Josip Tito, Metodija Andonov-Cento, Mane Cuckov, and Kiril Petrusevski. In 1943, Kiro Gligorov (former President of the FYROM) also favoured this solution.

SECOND: The photo in the NOF section depicting Young Ethnic "Macedonians" was taken in Vatohori (Baptchori as is stated), Kastoria in March of 1948.

The 2 armed female soldiers were members of the LOXOS DHMOKRATIKHS NEOLAIAS GYNAIKWN THS 670 MONADAS TOU DSE (Democratic Army Female Youth Company - Unit 670 of the Democratic Army of Greece). They were Greek communist guerrillas.

The 2 female soldiers depicted in the photograph came from Lamia (Central/Mainland Greece) and Karditsa (Thessaly). These areas were never part of Greek Macedonia.

None of them had any relation whatsoever to the so called "Slavomakedonski" NOF militia.

THIRD: As for the section titled "Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians", this is all FYROM propaganda. The KKE removed Greek children aged 3 to 14 years of age from areas of Greek Macedonia, Epirus, and Thessaly (mostly by force and coercion) over the Iron Curtain because it needed to recruit people to their cause and eventually use the older children as fighters against the Greek National Army. I personally know people who were separated from their parents and were made to believe that they were not Greek. Their siblings who now live in Greece say that they are Greek yet the ones who were taken say that they are "ethnic Macedonians". See UN General Assembly Resolutions 193 and 288 dated November 17, 1948 and November 18, 1949 condemning the removal of and demanding the return of Greek children. There were no "ethnic Macedonians" in Thessalia and Epirus yet the KKE also removed children from there. If one were to look at why Greece refused to allow these grown-up misguided adults now back in to Greece it is because their passports state their birthplaces as eg. Neret, Macedonia. Well Neret is the slavic name of Polipotamos (in the region of Florina) but the country is what??? Macedonia??? Similarly I can't go to the US with my passport stating I was born in Los Angeles, Mexico! See this link for an example:

Revi(z)ionist history indeed! I am going to tag this article as controversial and I question its neutrality.AgiosD (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Partisan image
I did not appreciate at all the false argumentation from the last re-addition ! If you want to elaborate on the reliability of this site point to the right direction. The S.F. doesn't claim a thing, nor in this matter or (as far as i know) in general, it just supports groups of people and activities. From the site i can only assume that the image's source is the state archive. Do we have any assertion of its description from there at least ? even better from a third party source or if there was any reference to the ultimate origin. If you agree here this sourcing is enough than use it, i mostly reacted to the twisting of facts in the edit summary.--Zakronian (talk) 11:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, come now. This has nothing to do with the source of the image. It's another case of denial of participation, or rather, existence of ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Köbra | Könverse lk:Dkace|talk]]) 14:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry my friend, everything I post has references. I double check all information before I post it. More than 60% of the DSE was composed of ethnic Macedonians. I will give you photos and citations. Regards till then. --Revizionist (talk) 12:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

You are a true Revizionist and this is what I am afraid off ! Revision of history is not in the scope of the wiki project! From your point of view 60% of DSE were Slav-Macedonians. Let's accept this as a true fact.I have some logical questions I would like you to answer:


 * a. Why the leadership of the 3 year struggle was composed only by Greeks?In an army with the majority of its fighters being Slav-Macedonians (SM) the officers from low rank up to high rank should be also Slav-Macedonians. Especially in a Communist Partizan movement that was accepting everybody as equal!.


 * b. Why the magazine " Δημοκρατικος Στρατός" (" Democratic Army") was issued only in Greek? That was the main magazine that the High Command was putting articles regarding the war effort in all circumstances. There is no Slavic version of it.


 * c. All the leaflets and instruction books that anyone can search in KKE's archives are in the Greek language. How is that compatible with the "60% of the army being Slav-Macedonians"?Can you provide Slavic versions?


 * d. All photos uploaded in this article are either contradictive of forged. There is not even a small insignia showing that the people participating in the photos are Slav-Macedonians, Greeks, Turks, or what ever.They are fighters of the Democratic Army of Greece ΔΣΕ(as you can see by zooming in there bere).


 * e. Tito shut down the borders by 1948. Yet DSE lasted untill 1949 with nearly 8.000 fighters. After the defeat in Grammo, 6.000 of them located within 1949 in Taskent,capital of the Socialist Republic of Uzbekistahn. These people were reconnected with their families later on  until 1950. Many more ( not the majority, the wounded and the elder fighters) were located in Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, DDR, Hungury ( as well as the HQ of KKE's leadership), Albania and SYRM. If 60% of the fighters were belonging to the Slav-Macedonian minority this means that : 4.800 out of 8.000 were SM and that they have been settled in SYRM. But this is not the historical fact out of all accounts, Greek, Communist, Yugoslavian, UN.


 * f. Hundreds of the political refugees have written books and narrations regarding their life in the Political exile.Few of them are referring to SM comrades and fighters. In an army of 60% belonging to SM minority how is that possible?


 * g. All major battles in Northern Greece had hundreds of dead DSE fighters. I had the honor to read the Fighters Book of the 177 Brigade of DSE. NONE had a Slav name! But 177 Brigade was operating in mount Grammos. And most of its fighters were listed killed in a single battle in 1948.


 * h. Finally: III Division of DSE, was operating in Peloponnese from 1946 to the summer of 1948. Started in 1946 with a few hundred of fighters and on its peak, in summer of 1947 had three Battalions under its Command with 20.000 fighters. The Division suffered a heavy defeat in the spring of 1948, due to lack of ammunition and inability to fled Peloponnese because of Corinth narrow passage to the mainland. 20.000 of Peloponnese fighters were SM minority memebers? Same question for the Brigades of Chalkidiki, Evoia, Stera Ellada ( mid-Greece), Thessaly, Xanthi, Evros and the islands of Samos, Mitiline, Ionian Islands and Crete ( although in Crete the number never overcome 300).


 * I would very much like to hear your logical answer to the above.
 * Please follow paragraphs as accounted in order to follow better the answer.Thanks Dkace (talk) 14:02, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello Dkace, how are you? About your arguments which are not backed with references about the ethnicity of the partisans, but only their position in Greece, I will answer with a citation from the book "Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949" written by Greek researches and historian Alexandros Zaouses. Here is the a photo from the book - . The text clearly says in Greek: "...epi 22,000 antartwn oi 14,000 htan Slavo-Makedones", which in English would be: "...from 22,000 fighters (guerrillas) 14,000 were Slavo-Macedonians". I am not making a revizion of history. I am just referring to facts stated by English, Macedonian, American and Greek historians. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 13:35, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Rvizionist. I know all about the photo. But one book referring a number at the same time that OFFICIAL Archives do not have any number near to this, it clearly states a ...a small problem, don't you think? Can you please check the references of this "historian" and from where he backs up his opinion? As far as I know, only extreme left winged historian are giving numbers for Slav-Macedoniancs, Alabanians and Bulgarian based on nothing. Please do so and reply with the sources. Nevertheless, we are not writing history here. we can present all sources and give the opportunity to the reader to derive his own conclusions, not to mention find the all the sources available.

Dkace (talk) 15:30, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

References from any side must be respected.
Although there is a policy for valid references in wiki project, in the case of highly disputed facts, I believe that any reference that can be found must be stated.

Deleting references that we "don't like" is biasing the scopes of this project.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that an administrator must take care of this issue in this article. Dkace (talk) 09:49, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Dkace, with all due respect, you asked for a reference and immediately I gave you the most valid referece in the form of a photo and text from the book saying that 14,000 out of total 22,000 DSE fighters were ethnic Macedonian. You wrote that "...the number of those fighters was never exceeding 10-15%" - please give a valid reference or some proof about that. Until you give me, it will be excluded from the article because the whole section looks like your own personal opinion. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 12:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It is a reference based on what? If we start judging references then POV will be the lαw and neutral approach will be banned.I am not excluding the reference stating this. But I am giving a whole basket of reference - all referring directly to official documents, such as : 1.Provisional Government decisions and lists- DSE HQ referrences, 2. KKE official documents that enclude reports of high rank excecutives such as Bartzokas, Vafeiadis, Zachariadis etc, 3. Two or three other books of simple fighters or officers of DSE and children that were evacuated. All these references are proving that the claim of 30% of DSE being Slav-Macedonians is incorect.
 * Nevertheless we can not exclude neither source. The reader can go to the references and make his own mind. We contribute here as much as we now regarding the issue. Can we agree on that? If yes, please restore the references I posted. Thanks.Dkace (talk) 13:34, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

My dear Dkace, I gave you three sources which state that the DSE in 1949 had 14,000 ethnic Macedonians out of 22,000 total - by Andrew Rossos in Incompatible Allies: Greek Communism and Macedonian Nationalism in the Civil War in Greece, 1943-1949 (The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 69, No. 1 (Mar., 1997), pp. 42-76.), by C. M. Woodhouse in his book "The Struggle for Greece, 1941-1949" and by Alexandros Zaouses in "Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949". I ALSO FOUND ANOTHER source which supports the statement - ΠΡΕΣΠΑ η Ελληνική by Δημήτρις Πένης (page from the book - ). So I have given you four direct sources. All I want is for you to give me even one source where it is written that the ethnic Macedonians were "...never exceeding 10-15%" as you have written in the article. When you verify this, I will be delighted to restore that statement in the article. P.S. Ask Future Perfect, he will agree that i am a civilized contributor who always gives his best to verify his contributions and a good colleague in Wikipedia. Gia sou file. --Revizionist (talk) 15:01, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not arguing whereas you are civilized contributor or not. I am questioning these sources as biased right winged sources ( not to mention British biased ones). As soon as I reach my library I will even note the pages on the references I posted.I am not hostile against your opinion. I am trying to contribute presenting the whole picture.Dkace (talk) 15:48, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Entaxi, just show a photo of the place in the book that says that the ethnic Macedonians "...never exceeded 10-15%" and it will be olla kala. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 20:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no direct reference on the number, just estimations derived from the political and military situation of 1948-1949. I will pin doen specific abstracts and I will upload them for this purpose. THis will take some time though.Dkace (talk) 08:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Den ehi provlima. Ehoume kairo :) Tha primenoume. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 11:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Mallon thes na peis den yparchei provlima. In the meanwhile, please give the references of the sources you have posted regarding the number of the Slav-Macedonian fighters in the ranks of DSE. It would be nice to know how these numbers are derived. Dkace (talk) 12:47, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I already gave you the sources of the references, look in my previous comments. It is not our problem nor duty to explain how they are derived. It is important that historical researchers state that in 1949 the number of ethnic Macedonians in the Dhmokratiki Stratos was 14,000 out of total 22,000 (which is 60%). Nobody asks you to explain the numbers, you are just asked to show where it is written that the ethnic Macedonians "...never exceeded 10-15%". Thanks in advance. Regards --Revizionist (talk) 13:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Makedonci NOF 2.JPG
I trucked down the book of Dimitris Penis and the legend on the picture has as follows:

"Young fighters of DSE participating in the second NOF Conference with Chr. Peiko of the General Command (GC) Guard"

Is Chr. Peikos ethnic Macedonian? I believe we have to restore the legend. Revizionist, you uploaded the picture, do you have it anywhere else?

Check http://macedonian.atspace.com/knigi/dp_prespa.htm

Dkace (talk) 14:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes I uploaded the picture Makedonci NOF 2.JPG from the book about the village of Baptchor (Βαψώρι, Бапчор) written by Georgi Donevski, who is a native of the village and has written a lot of books about the Macedonian child refugees, about the Macedonian fighters in DSE and NOF and str. I will photograph the whole page of the book and I will upload it for you to see. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 15:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * In the picture page you are refering to the book of Dimitris Penis and you indicate that this are participans of the NOF conference, avoiding the rest of the legend. Why so?Dkace (talk) 23:47, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

This is where I got the picture from: -the cover of the book "Bapchor" by Georgi Donevski - -the page with the photo saying that th names of the fighters are Ristana Peova, Aleksandra Kiandova and Kitse Peikov (Peikov is a big Bapchor family, Georgi Peikov was the organizer of SNOF in Bapchor and afterwards the NOF. The whole family participated in the fight and gave several dead members. Today the family liver in R.Macedonia and in Australia. Kitse Peikov (on the photo) entered the fight in 1947. His relativ Kole Peikov became a major in DSE) - -Kole Peikov (in the middle) during the 1st Macedonian World Congress in Skopje - The Peikov family are ethnic Macedonians and all of them live either in R.Macedonia or in Australia. P.S. I am still waiting for a photo of your reference saying that ethnic Macedonians "...never exceeded 10-15%". Regards and all the best. --Revizionist (talk) 15:33, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought you uploaded the picture from Dimitris Penis book, where he indicates only Peiko ΠΡΕΣΠΑ η Ελληνική by Δημήτρης Πένης (page from the book - )
 * Regarding your second anticipation :
 * As I told you and PMK1, the 10-15% is an estimation derived by all the references of the official documents of KKE and DSE. I am still expecting the volumes of the magazine of "Democratic Army" - there are two volumes with all the magazines issued by the HQ of DSE from 1948 to 1949- where there is a report of Pandelis Vainas regarding the Slav Macedonian contribution to DSE struggle. Meanwhile, i am preparing a very interesting collection of articles, Yugoslavian reports, lists of fighters per Greek prefecture, all issued by official sources that can help the reader derive its own estimations. It is strange -for your goals- that in no OFFICIAL reference with a strict estimation of Slav Macedonian fighters in DSE but only for total number of refugees. You understand that this creates a validation problem for the sources that are referring to numbers...And the problem is clearly political...
 * In any case, our job is to complete the article with all the sources that we can get. So, by the end of this research we will be probably able to have a class A article.
 * Don't be impatient. You might learn something more out of this after all. wiki is an open project ! Best Regards, Dkace (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

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Unexplained Reverts
The Ohrana was a fore-runner to the creation of the SNOF so it must be mentioned in the article along with the collaboration of Slavomacedonians with the Axis with the aim of secceding.--Xenovatis (talk) 13:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Some information on the relationship between Ohrana and SNOF













These people were accused of manifesting pro-Bulgarian sentiments when the Bulgarians arrived (by flying Bulgarian flags, for instance, or putting up portraits of King Boris), of joining the Okhrana groups, of complicity in the arrest and execution of Greek citizens, of spreading Bulgarian propaganda, and of assisting efforts toward Macedonian autonomy. Inhabitants of urban centres were chiefly accused of joining the Bulgarian Club (some even holding high executive positions) and of attending Bulgarian churches, taking part in Bulgarian celebrations, joining Bulgarian choirs, and so on. The list of accusations was usually very long, being relevant to many of the articles of the Constitutional Act: the charges levelled against someone accused of “national unworthiness” might include a whole string of offences, such as spreading propaganda or belonging to the Security Battalions.

The testimonies started to grow more complicated and to reveal the true nature of the problem when the witnesses recounted the activities of an accused prisoner during the occupation who, having been a loyal friend of the Bulgarians in the early years of the occupation, would suddenly appear as a member of Slovenomakedonski Narodno Oslobodaekn Front (Slav Macedonian National Liberation Front).These were the Okhranists, armed members of Bulgarian-sponsored units, who were quick to join the Slavic-speaking units officially under the jurisdiction of EAM in order to avoid punishment after the occupation. Some of them even chose to espouse the SNOF manifesto regarding the autonomy of Macedonia. Others seem to have moved on to SNOF after active service with EAM. Many of the accused had absconded and were tried in absentia. They tended to be either fanatical supporters of the Bulgarian cause who had accompanied the departing Bulgarian troops in October 1944, or autonomists who had managed to flee to Yugoslavia.

--Xenovatis (talk) 18:23, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Fascinating. Good work, Ξενοβάτη. · ΚΕΚΡΩΨ · 18:08, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Slav Macedonians is not an Oxymoron
Oxymoron means, a figure of speech that combines two normally contradictory terms. The members of SNOF and NOF regarded themselves as Slav Macedonians, hence the 'S' in NOF. That is what the documents of the period tell us. Politis (talk) 13:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, thanks for that, Webster. I know "Slav Macedonians" isn't an oxymoron and I don't need the history lecture. But what you wrote - "Slav Macedonian Greeks" - is, ethnically speaking, an oxymoron. Now that may have been unintentional. I don't know. But unless you link to the country of citizenship, I have every right to believe you were talking about ethnicities. ['kɔbɹa] ☠ 19:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you are sayingn. The member of NOF were Greeks because they were Greek citizens and they identified as Slav Macedonians in terms of language and traditions. Politis (talk) 14:55, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Since I've never heard the term "Slav Macedonian Greeks", I suggested you link Greeks to Greece, inferring that it's the country of citizenship. I highly doubt though that many of the members were citizens. As for the "Slav" part, as you said, the fact that it's called SNOF immediately establishes who they are and there is no longer any ambiguity in the term "ethnic Macedonians". To be honest, a good majority of people outside of (and not originating from) the Balkans don't believe there is any ambiguity with the term "Macedonians". You can go ahead and add "Slav" in front of every instance of the term "Macedonian", if only it will satisfy the selfishness and stubbornness Greeks have. ['kɔbɹa] ☠ 15:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I broadly understand what you are saying. But I am not sure about the'selfishness' of Greeks. I think your point is also echoed based in the debate in the Republic of Macedonia between those who think they are not Slavs and those who believe they belong to the Slavic family. Here are some examples from the 1940s:
 * The Greek citizen Pavlos Koufis from Florina who represented minority rights during the Civil War and tought local children, self-identified as Slavo Macedonian. If NOF were not Greek citizens, do we know what? Were they were Yugoslav citizens, mostly from the People's Republic of Macedonia fighting in Greece?
 * The newspaper Borba mentioned in 1949 “Greek ‘monarcho-Fascist’ persecution of the Slavo-Macedonians”
 * The Greek citizen and minority activist was happy to refer to himself as a 'Slavo Macedonian'.
 * A NOF resolution passed by the Second Plenum of the NOF was broadcast from Yugoslavia on ‘Free Greece’ radio, in February 1949, it stated:
 * “The Second Conference of the NOF will declare the wholesale participation of the Macedonian people together with the Greek people in the common struggle… Will call upon all the resources of the Slavo-Macedonians and will unite them around the NOF… will call upon the Slavo-Macedonians to join in a general uprising against Monarcho-Fascism and the Anglo-American occupiers with the purpose of liberating the Macedonian people and fighting for the People’s Democracy of Macedonia.’ Politis (talk) 15:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I commend you for taking the time to discuss it in detail, but admittedly, I have little interest in whether they were Greek citizens or not. You admit though to them being Slav Macedonians, considering past propositions to blanket the term. Rather, using "Slavophone Greeks" or some other rubbish. Personally, I could care less about the history of Greeks, Macedonians, Bulgarians or anyone for that matter, so best use your energy discussing it with some Macedonian with a pathetic sense of nationalism. Peace and blessings. ['kɔbɹa] ☠ 05:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Are Slav Macedonians referred to also as "ethnic" Macedonians in any sources of the period? They are in this article.
Considering the references to Slavic Macedonians and SNOF, why do we refer here to the same people as ethnic Macedonians? The two terms are not the same. Note that 350 highly reputable academics have written to the US President this year to protest the misuse of the appelation Macedonian (let alone ethnic Macedonian) in the sense in which it is used in this article. Who has edited this article and what are their credentials?

I will also note that several unanimous Resolutions of the United Nations General Assembly condemned from 1948-1953 the abduction of 28,000 Greek children from Macedonia. Not only is there no reference to the abducted children, instead we have an unsourced claim of 50,000 Macedonian "refugees". Please give a reputable source (eg United Nations) for the 50,000 alleged refugees. Skamnelis (talk) 01:05, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Title is misleading
The title is "National Liberation Front (Macedonia)", it gives misleading impressions, as if all Macedonians (Greek, Slav, Arvanite, Bulgarian, Pontian...) were united. It also has irredentist connotations. Even though many in NOF fought for a dederated Macedonia from Kosovo to Thessaloniki within Yugoslavia, the term 'Macedonia' was not of the NOF name. I suggest changing the title to National Liberation Front (Greek Civil War), or something. Politis (talk) 20:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree. Do you dare to move it now or do we have to do a WP:RM?--Ptolion (talk) 20:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Why has the use of the term "Macedonia" for Macedonia (Greece) "irridentist connotations" all of the sudden? I thought that was the one and only legitimate meaning of the term, was it not? And no, being a purely geographical qualifier, it certainly doesn't imply "all Macedonians" were united under it. Not that I would object against an alternative title if there's some good reason for it, but I just don't follow this argument. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:25, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Because it could be seen to imply that the national liberation of Macedonia (Greece) and what Macedonians (ethnic group) consider national liberation are one and the same. The only argument against renaming I can see is that "National Liberation Front (Greek Civil War)" is a very long title.--Ptolion (talk) 15:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * it is good to note that the civil war ended in favor of Greece by introducing the napalm bomb on mount Gramos as a military help from the U.S.A. it resulted with a massive exodus of Macedonian population to Macedonia (state) as well as USSR, romania, etc.

Self-reference to Wikipedia
I found a couple of instances where the reference lead to a webpage whose only text was a reproduction of this Wikipedia article. Therefore, the article was referring to itself an authoritative source. Politis (talk) 13:07, 3 August 2014 (UTC)