Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Marion County, Indiana

Indianapolis neighborhoods and other
Adding in a table now, which may be developed with pictures. Comparison to old list's links to any articles in progress.

The table's current Town/City column could be revised to classify Indianapolis locations by neighborhood. Is there a List of Indianapolis neighborhoods article and/or any official partition of the city? doncram (talk) 18:13, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Odd one word names
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Doncram": Indianapolis has a place named just "Colonial". There is a DAB page for the word, to which it could be added. Or, there are LOTS of other NRHPs with colonial in the name, including Colonial Hotel, Colonial Theater, etc. Not sure how to handle this one. It's all yours. :) I will pipelink to Colonial (Indianapolis, Indiana). Lvklock (talk) 14:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, i don't understand those one-word Indianapolis items, Ambassador, Alexandra, Baker, Burton, Cathcart, Chadwick, Colonial, Dartmouth, Devonshire, Emelie, Glencoe, Grover, Harriet, Lodge, Martens, Massachusetts, McKay, Oldfields, Oldfields (2nd), Oxford, Pennsylvania, Plaza, Rink, Savoy, Shelton, Spink, Sylvania, and others (please check/add to this list). Perhaps they are apartment buildings? It seems the local NRHP officer left off "Apartment Building" or "Historic District" or something else of all them. Perhaps report all as effective errors, and/or ask for other information about all of them, in one report to the National Register? doncram (talk) 16:38, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, the ones alphabetically before Colonial, I just pipelinked/Dabbed, as normal. Some were already done. My issue with Colonial is how to DAB. So, my take is that we should copy this exchange onto the talk page and move on, while you may or may not want to do some sort of DAB for Colonial. But, if we're gonna meet the enildaed terces, we can't get bogged down with this. Lvklock (talk) 16:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Then let's list them all at the Marion county Talk page, and put a note in the Indiana state list Talk page and at NRIS info issues. I did create disambiguation for some of them, Glencoe included, but found that uncomfortable, asserting the notability of a redlink that looks like it is misnamed. Looking at them now as a group these all seem to be sort of wrong to foist upon all the disambiguation pages. Either a different name for each one should be established for wikipedia to use (adding "Apartment Building" perhaps) or a better explanation is needed for each disambiguation entry, or some other solution, to be found at some later time after some more can be known about these. So just use (City, State) disambiguation in the names, and don't bother adding to disambiguation pages, just list them in a batch to be addressed. doncram (talk) 17:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I checked Colonial and Pennsylvania, and both are listed as multiple dwelling, so the apartment buildings idea sounds reasonable. This looks like Pennsylvania, and this is incontrovertibly Colonial. Didn't look at the others, but I expect that they could be the same. Nyttend (talk) 17:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

(End of section retrieved from a user talkpage)

Further, the Indiana NRHP website system, lists these and others as 36 elements of "Apartments and Flats of Downtown Indianapolis", which must be a Multiple Property Submission. The 36 are: NR-0616.01 	National Register 	Alameda NR-0616.02 	National Register 	Alexandra NR-0616.03 	National Register 	Ambassador NR-0616.04 	National Register 	Baker NR-0616.05 	National Register 	Grover NR-0616.06 	National Register 	Harriett NR-0616.07 	National Register 	Blacherne NR-0616.08 	National Register 	Burton NR-0616.09 	National Register 	Cathcart NR-0616.10 	National Register 	Dartmouth NR-0616.11 	National Register 	Delaware Court NR-0616.12 	National Register 	Delaware Flats NR-0616.13 	National Register 	Devonshire NR-0616.14 	National Register 	Emelie NR-0616.15 	National Register 	Glencoe NR-0616.16 	National Register 	Martens NR-0616.17 	National Register 	Massachusetts Apartments NR-0616.18 	National Register 	Mayleeno NR-0616.19 	National Register 	Lodge NR-0616.20 	National Register 	McKay NR-0616.21 	National Register 	Rink NR-0616.22 	National Register 	Savoy NR-0616.23 	National Register 	Shelton NR-0616.24 	National Register 	Sid-Mar NR-0616.26 	National Register 	Pennsylvania NR-0616.27 	National Register 	Plaza NR-0616.28 	National Register 	Spink NR-0616.29 	National Register 	Sylvania NR-0616.30 	National Register 	Vienna NR-0616.31 	National Register 	Wil-Fra-Mar NR-0616.32 	National Register 	Wilson NR-0616.33 	National Register 	Wyndham NR-0616.34 	National Register 	Oxford NR-0616.35 	National Register 	Colonial NR-0616.36 	National Register 	Chadwick So they are 36 apartment buildings, i guess. (To get to this list in Indiana system, follow instructions at wp:NRHP for accessing, and select Marion county and show all.) doncram (talk) 23:54, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Checking the available PDF copy of the Baker application within the Indiana NRHP system, i see it is just very cryptic. Probably all the detail is in the MPS document.  The MPS document is "Apartments and Flats of Downtown Indianapolis TR", available here: 64000185. doncram (talk) 00:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Reading the MPS document, i note that treatment is always with article "the" preceding. In tables and some usage within the document, places are referred to as in "The Devonshire".  In most text usage within the document, places are referred to as "the Devonshire" but seemingly never "Devonshire" alone.  I think the best usage would be "The Devonshire", everywhere, and I think that's what should be used in the Marion county-list table and in individual article names in wikipedia, with an error report going to the National Register, to request they update/correct the NRIS names lacking "The". doncram (talk) 00:14, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. I'll make the changes to the list.  Where an article already exists without "The" what should I do?  Meanwhile, would you document whatever you think it should be on the NRIS info issues Page? Lvklock (talk) 00:19, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not completely sure yet about inserting "The" into names. How about getting some Indiana editors' input, first?  Reynas92 (sp?) was not going to be available for a couple weeks though.  And I would prefer if this was based on more than just my very quick skimming of the MPS.  Maybe The makes sense for most, but not for the plural ones, like "Massachusetts Apartments", maybe that should stay with no "The" prepended.


 * For now, would pipelinking "Devonshire" to Devonshire (Indianapolis, Indiana) for the moment, leaving it displaying as Devonshire, as before, work? If there are existing articles to link to then pipelink to them at whatever is their name?  I dunno what makes best sense for a temporary solution now.  I am not ready to compose and send an inquiry / error report about this now. doncram (talk) 01:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. Me either. I'm good with moving on pipelinking.  I'll do a little now, but my bed's a-calling me. Lvklock (talk) 01:45, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Several months later now... It seems to me that all 36 should be given more descriptive names, perhaps prepending "The" or adding "Apartment Building" or "Flats". Actually, perhaps using the full spelled out names on pages 2 (and/or pages 3, 4) of the TR doc would be sufficient. These are as follows:

NRIS name 			Page 2 name - 	 			--- Alameda 			The Alameda Alexandra   			The Alexandra Ambassador   			The Ambassador Baker 				The Baker Grover 				The Grover Harriett			The Harriett Blacherne			The Blacherne Burton				The Burton Cathcart			The Cathcart Dartmouth			The Dartmouth Delaware Court			Delaware Court Delaware Flats			Delaware Flats Devonshire			The Devonshire Emelie				The Emilie Glencoe				The Glencoe Martens				The Martens Massachusetts Apartments	The Massachusetts Mayleeno			The Mayleeno Lodge				The Lodge McKay				The McKay Rink				The Rink (The Link) Savoy				The Savoy Shelton				The Shelton Sid-Mar				The Sid-Mar Pennsylvania			The Pennsylvania Plaza				The Plaza Spink				The Spink (Jefferson) Sylvania			The Sylvania Vienna				The Vienna Wil-Fra-Mar			The Wil-Fra-Mar Wilson				The Wilson Wyndham				The Wyndham Oxford				The Oxford Colonial			The Colonial Chadwick			The Chadwick --(none)--			The St. Clair --(none)--			The Myrtle Fern

I think using these Page 2 names would be better than the current NRIS names. I would suggest to the state and/or national levels that the NRIS names be changed. doncram (talk) 06:03, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually it appears that places were entered into NRIS using the list showing one-word names on pages 29-32 of the TR document. Those vs. preferred names (same as above but excluding parenthetical expressions from the names) are:

Page 29-32 name 		Preferred name --- 		--- 1. Alameda 			The Alameda 2. Alexandra   		The Alexandra 3. Ambassador   		The Ambassador 4. Baker 			The Baker 5. Blacherne			The Blacherne 6. Burton			The Burton 7. Cathcart			The Cathcart 8. Chadwick			The Chadwick 9. Colonial			The Colonial 10. Dartmouth			The Dartmouth 11. Delaware Court		Delaware Court 12. Delaware Flats		Delaware Flats 13. Devonshire			The Devonshire 14. Emelie			The Emilie 15. Glencoe			The Glencoe 16. Grover 			The Grover 17. Harriett			The Harriett 18. Lodge			The Lodge 19. Martens			The Martens 20. Massachusetts		The Massachusetts 21. Mayleeno			The Mayleeno 22. McKay			The McKay 23. Myrtle Fern			The Myrtle Fern 24. Oxford			The Oxford 25. Pennsylvania		The Pennsylvania 26. Plaza			The Plaza 27. Rink			The Rink 28. Savoy			The Savoy 29. Shelton			The Shelton 30. Sid-Mar			The Sid-Mar 31. Spink			The Spink 32. St. Clair			The St. Clair 33. Sylvania			The Sylvania 34. Vienna			The Vienna 35. Wil-Fra-Mar			The Wil-Fra-Mar 36. Wilson			The Wilson 37. Wyndham			The Wyndham


 * I suggest we use these preferred names in Wikipedia and request corresponding NRIS changes. doncram (talk) 06:28, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I guess that's fine. I really don't know what any of these places are. How many of them already have articles? Reywas92 Talk 18:42, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Looking at the list-table, it seems to me that only Baker (Indianapolis, Indiana) has an article so far, which I will now move to The Baker. Lemme check more on the articles, by checking links in the following, too:


 * 1. Alameda vs. The Alameda
 * 2. Alexandra vs. The Alexandra
 * 3. Ambassador vs. The Ambassador
 * 4. Baker vs. The Baker
 * 5. Blacherne vs. The Blacherne
 * 6. Burton vs. The Burton
 * 7. Cathcart vs. The Cathcart
 * 8. Chadwick vs. The Chadwick
 * 9. Colonial vs. The Colonial
 * 10. Dartmouth vs. The Dartmouth
 * 11. Delaware Court vs. Delaware Court
 * 12. Delaware Flats vs. Delaware Flats
 * 13. Devonshire vs. The Devonshire
 * 14. Emelie vs. The Emilie
 * 15. Glencoe vs. The Glencoe
 * 16. Grover vs. The Grover
 * 17. Harriett vs. The Harriett
 * 18. Lodge vs. The Lodge
 * 19. Martens vs. The Martens
 * 20. Massachusetts vs. The Massachusetts
 * 21. Mayleeno vs. The Mayleeno
 * 22. McKay vs. The McKay
 * 23. Myrtle Fern vs. The Myrtle Fern
 * 24. Oxford vs. The Oxford
 * 25. Pennsylvania vs. The Pennsylvania
 * 26. Plaza vs. The Plaza
 * 27. Rink vs. The Rink
 * 28. Savoy vs. The Savoy
 * 29. Shelton vs. The Shelton
 * 30. Sid-Mar vs. The Sid-Mar
 * 31. Spink vs. The Spink
 * 32. St. Clair vs. The St. Clair
 * 33. Sylvania vs. The Sylvania
 * 34. Vienna vs. The Vienna
 * 35. Wil-Fra-Mar vs. The Wil-Fra-Mar
 * 36. Wilson vs. The Wilson
 * 37. Wyndham vs. The Wyndham


 * With your agreement I am comfortable now changing the list-article to use these names (perhaps including "(Indianapolis, Indiana)" appended in some cases if necessary. Using these names, we can assert that we are using the National Register names and are avoiding coining new names, and notify the state and/or national NRHP offices via the wp:NRIS info issues reporting system. doncram (talk) 03:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

We need a section break
Thanks for the detailed discussion of this topic. I don't like changing names without evidence, but it looks like you've uncovered plenty of evidence that the NRIS official names are in error. I strongly support moving. Nyttend (talk) 04:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, i am working at changing the article name links in National Register of Historic Places listings in Center Township, Marion County, Indiana and changing corresponding dab pages, to implement these renamings/corrections. Done alphabetically through The Chadwick by now, will continue.  Also I notice that "The Buckingham" is one more of the same in Indianapolis, which is perhaps a later or earlier separate NRHP listing (article at The Buckingham (Indianapolis, Indiana)). doncram (talk) 16:07, 15 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems the St. Clair was not NRHP-listed though. There is no such place in the current List of RHPs in Center Township and in the Elkman NRHP infobox generator. doncram (talk) 06:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Since you have evidence from the nomination that the listing names were meant to be "The ____", I'm not going to propose that we change them back — but I should note that single-word names are common. Today, I visited and photographed several sites in Center Township, including Alameda, Ambassador, Blacherne, McKay, Pennsylvania, and Wilson.  Some didn't have visible names, and others had modern plastic signs such as "Historic _____ Apartments".  However, as far as I remember, every place that had an original name (e.g. one carven over the main entrance) had a single-word name; Blacherne is a good example of this.  No wonder that the nomination form sometimes used single-word names, since the original buildings appear to have used single-word names as well.  Nyttend (talk) 02:54, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Boundary increase info to be incorporated
Fort Benjamin Harrison for Fort Benjamin Harrison Historic District Fort Benjamin Harrison for Fort Benjamin Harrison Historic District (Boundary Increase)

Lockerbie Square Historic District Lockerbie Square Historic District for Lockerbie Square Historic District Amendment (Boundary Increase)

Old Northside Historic District Northside Historic District for Northside Historic District (Boundary Increase), original seems to be "Old" while boundary increase omits that word

split or not, and how?
I notice some edits splitting and reversions re-merging this list-article. What's going on? Could we discuss the merits of possibly splitting, and how, here?

A recent splitting focussed on Center Township vs. others. Is there a map available (in Wikipedia or outside) which shows the boundaries of these townships? If a split along these lines is implemented, such a map should probably be included in the top-level article. But for now I would just like to understand what is the split proposal. doncram (talk) 02:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * DeLorme's Indiana Atlas and Gazetteer shows the township boundaries precisely. Because virtually all of the Marion County listings are in Indianapolis, listing by townships is much more precise than listing by community.  The large number of listings makes a split necessary, and splitting out Center Township is far simpler than attempting to split by any other means — the only simpler way would be to split by whether locations are within the I-465 beltway or whether they're within the non-Indianapolis communities, but there are so few listings outside 465 and outside Indianapolis that such a split would be essentially without benefit.  Only by going by townships can we have a clear boundary for splitting.  Nyttend (talk) 03:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) I see there is a map showing which is Center Township but not naming the others, in the current National Register of Historic Places listings in Center Township, Marion County, Indiana article. Here it is, at right.  Also in general i agree that some split is helpful, as there are more than 200 places in the county and Bing maps cut off at showing just the first 200.  Among other things, I wonder if "National Register of Historic Places listings in Indianapolis" would be a proper name for the Center Township ones, if that split is used.  Also, I have not seen any other city list split into a downtown/center city vs. a doughnut around it.  Perhaps to avoid that doughnut shape it should be a 3 way split, something like: "NRHP listings in Center Township of Marion County, Indiana" vs. "NRHP listings in north and west townships of Marion County, Indiana" vs. "NRHP listings in south and east townships of Marion County, Indiana"?  I don't know anything about local usage though.  I would like to see something settled or for any disagreement to be suspended for a while, though, so I can implement the decision on the unrelated "One word names" issue in Talk section above, changing about 35 property names.doncram (talk) 03:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Looking on google maps, I wonder if Christian Park School No. 82 should be in Center Township, by the way, rather than in non-Center Township. doncram (talk) 03:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If it must be split, the way Nyttend had it was best because there is not really any other way to split the city, as you said, but that only inconveniences readers because the townships are nearly meaningless and now they must go to a subarticle to find info better suited together. While I understand the problem with being too big, I find it much worse to be too small. I question Nyttend's reversion of my merge of extremely short Alaska borough lists, and I started a thread at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places. Reywas92 Talk  03:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * For a little background information, read Unigov. Don't be unhappy if it seems confusing; I've read plenty about the subject, and I've talked with several friends who live in the city, but I still don't understand it very well.  For the purposes of this list, the most important thing is (if I understand correctly) that, before the formation of Unigov, Indianapolis had boundaries somewhat similar to the boundaries of Center Township.  However, the entire county (quasi-minus the excluded cities) is Indianapolis, so Old Southport High School in Perry Township is no less Indianapolis than is a property on Monument Circle in the heart of the city.  FYI, if I had been aware of a better way to split this, I would have done it that way, because it would be preferable to have two pages of 110 listings each or more than two pages with relatively equal numbers of listings than to have two pages of 160 and 60 listings.  Check back for my opinion on the Christian Park school.  Nyttend (talk) 04:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The boundary between Warren and Center Townships is Emerson Avenue, and the school is clearly west of Emerson, so it's clear that I made an error. Nyttend (talk) 04:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, we've sometimes split cities by what may seem to be rather irrelevant-to-the-locals boundaries; for example, Philadelphia was split by municipal planning districts. I know that townships aren't entirely irrelevant: school districts (see Metropolitan School District of Perry Township for an example) are based on the townships, so the average local has that as a reason to know his/her own township.  Nyttend (talk) 04:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, given Reywas92's comment and Nyttend's further information, and my own dearth of local knowledge, it sounds like a consensus that the current split (Center Township vs. doughnut of other townships) is okay/best and there are no obvious article renames or further splits to make right now. Reywas92, I do think over-200 size is too big, both for linked Bing map reason and for article size once pics and text descriptions are added, so I do believe a split is indeed necessary.  Also i think having the center city in one article is okay/good, as done in splitting National Register of Historic Places listings in Philadelphia and National Register of Historic Places in Baltimore.  So please do let's consider this settled on decision=split as implemented already.  I do agree with Reywas92 basically about Alaska and other states being split out too much, though, and I will comment further at the central discussion (at wt:NRHP) perhaps tomorrow.  Overall, i think it's great we have 3 intelligent people present and interested in this matter.  So much elsewhere in our lives doesn't add up to anything worthwhile!  Cheers, doncram (talk) 05:50, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Nyttend, to clarify, Unigov just merged the governments of Indianapolis and Marion County into the Indianapolis City-County Council, which also has control over the county's included towns. The city's boundaries were always most of the county except for the small towns now called included towns (see this image). And while school districts are generally based on townships, they are not very identical (see this image). I would also rather have 110-110 than 160-60, but the listings are clearly concentrated downtown in Center Township. Reywas92 Talk  21:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation, and especially for the map; I had wished that such a map existed, but I didn't know that it did. Nyttend (talk) 22:12, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

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