Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in southern Puerto Rico

research issues, for 2 in Yauco
Research issues: For Yauco, old list had Casa Lluberas Negroni, pipelinked to Corsican immigration to Puerto Rico. This does not seem to be NRHP-listed. Also old list had Mansion Negroni, also pipelinked to Corsican immigration to Puerto Rico, also seeming not to be NRHP-listed. (Note, Chalet Amill, likewise pipelinked, is in fact NRHP listed.). doncram (talk) 03:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Ponce issues
Three items from Ponce, Puerto Rico moved out of article, because these seem not to be NHRP-listed (or listed under a different name, or delisted): doncram (talk) 05:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Casa de la Masacre. Site of the Ponce Massacre. (It's notable, but is this NRHP-listed?  I am not finding it) Found it, readded. doncram (talk) 23:57, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
 * McCabe Memorial Church
 * Ponce Museum of Art

Panteón Nacional Román Baldorioty de Castro
The article Panteón Nacional Román Baldorioty de Castro now includes an incomplete NRHP infobox, and it is claimed this is listed on the NRHP. It is currently pipelinked from the Cementerio Angiguo de Ponce item in this Southern Puerto Rico list article. I would like to fix up the NRHP infobox properly.

But I wonder, is this National Register refnum 84003149, Cementerio Antiguo de Ponce, which is located at Torres no. 1 and Frontispicio St. in Ponce, PR, and also known as "Cementerio Civil de Ponce". Or is it refnum 88001249 Cementerio Catolico San Vicente de Paul, which is located "Off PR 10" in Ponce, PR, and also known as "Cementerio Catolico de Ponce"? Both are NRHP-listed in Ponce. And what is the evidence that it is one of these? doncram (talk) 05:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 84003149 IS Cementerio Antiguo de Ponce, which is now called Panteón Nacional Román Baldorioty de Castro. It is located at Torres and Frontispicio Sts.
 * Cementerio Antiguo de Ponce IS NOT Cementerio Civil de Ponce (which is a third cemetery yet). This one is not NRHP nominated to my knowledge.
 * 88001249 is Cementerio Catolico San Vicente de Paul. It is located on Calle Alma Sublime (Final), which is off PR Rt-123 (also called, within the city limits, Calle Ponceña), which was the old PR Rt-10.
 * Note about PR Route 10: The signs on this road (PR-123/PR-10/Ponceña) was changed a few years ago and PR-10 is now a new highway (with a segment still under construction) from Ponce to Arecibo (and which should cut travel time "many-folds"!). The old, windy road (Calle Ponceña and on) is now signed only "PR-123".
 * As for evidence that these are 3 different cemeteries, you can google 18.013888, -66.62222. (Be sure you are on satellite mode, and zoom in to 200m/in.)  This should put you in between of the 3 cemeteries (Civil and San Vicente will be on the left/West, Antiguo (RBDC) on the right/East.
 * As for evidence that Antiguo and Roman Baldorioty de Castro are the same cemetery, you can probably get that from the NRHP nomination document for 84003149. If that doesn't help, check out: http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=73659666241&message.id=180152
 * Hope this helps, Mercy11 (talk) 23:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks. Will comment more later. doncram (talk) 09:11, 18 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Pantheon is not a commonly used word in English, or at least for me, and I have not thought it was the same as a cemetery. So i looked it up at www.websters.com, and find it means "a public building containing tombs or memorials of the illustrious dead of a nation."  Is the Panteon here the crypt-building that is at the front of the larger cemetery property, but not the same as the whole cemetery?  It may still make sense to keep one merged article, but to describe their relationship as that, a NRHP-listed cemetery which includes one building that is the Panteon. doncram (talk) 01:31, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Don,
 * Sorry for the long-delay. didn't know your response was here until,,,well, never mind, it's a long story...but I sure learned to put these pages on my "watch list"!!!


 * I am not sure how to answer your question in a factual manner. Let me see where to start... You are right on your assessment of what pantheon means in English, but this where some cultural nuisances need to be considered. First, remembering that PR has been a US possession for the last 100 or so yrs (since 1898) of its 500-year history, and that it was a Spanish possession before that, then it is easy to see that most of its illustrous "national" dead have to do with the Spanish period, and thus buried in the Spanish tradition. Basically what this means is that the websters definition above doesn't apply.


 * I will explain more: When the RBDC cemetery was founded in 1842, "Spanish" style cemeteries were built in PR, and RBDC was one of them (and "pantheon" was nowhere in its name). Again, I don't claim to have all the answers here, but believe that in the Puerto Rican/Spanish tradition, a pantheon and a cemetery are both the same (in the sense that they both refer to outdoor burial grounds), except that a pantheon differs from a cemetery because it (uffff) "looks better" than a cemetery, since, as a depository of the nation's illustrious dead, it is expected to (1) contain tombs that reflect the wealth/political status of the deceased to start with, and (2) receive better upkeep by the government (landscaping, masonry, paint, etc).  Public cemeteries, on the other hand, are generally regarded as burial grounds for the masses (read: the poor). The existence or lack of an actual building within these grounds containing tombs or memorials is, in my believe, not necessarily the distinguishing characteristic between Spanish cemeteries and Spanish pantheons. Thus, both public cemeteries and pantheons may or may not incorporate an actual "building containing tombs or memorials"; in the case of pantheons, because if the deceased there were truly illustrious then either their family or the townspeople would have come up with the money to build them their own "pantheon" within the geographic limits of the pantheon and thus not depend on a previously-built multi-dead struture for this, and in the case of cemeteries because (as was the case with RBDC) there may or may not have yet existed a cemetery designated as Pantheon at the time to bury the first of the "illustrious" dead. This was the case for the burial of mayor Juan Rondón, who himself ordered the establishment of that (poorman's) cemetery (unaware that he was going to be its first tenant!).


 * A couple more notes:
 * (1) In the last 30 years or so, private cemeteries have been built in Ponce to satisfy the needs of the wealthy (but not illustrous). Recent late mayor Churumba was buried at one of these (don't ask me why, because there has been no more illustrious and beloved mayor in Ponce than Churumba, but my guess is this is where his family wanted to bury him at.  Yet I do hope his remains will be moved to RBDC someday Churumba#Death_and_Funeral). The  cemetery is called "La Piedad" (The Piety) and located just north of Cementerio Catolico San Vicente de Paul, on the other side of the hill there.
 * (2)The Cementerio Angiguo de Ponce that you mentioned above (which is the old name of RBDC), is mispelled (either as Cementerio Angiguo de Ponce" or as "Cementerio Viego de Ponce") in at least some of the map viewers available through wikipedia, when you view it in hybrid mode. I may have also seen it misspelled elsewhere (not in maps). Its correct spelling is "Cementerio Antiguo de Ponce" and "Cementerio Viejo de Ponce", respectively.


 * The short answer to your question is, of course, no, the pantheon is not just the crypt-building in the front: it is the whole cemetery. But I believe a bit expansion was in place and I hope it can help define where we go from here. Regards, Mercy11 (talk) 19:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

dates, refnums, NRHP infobox generator
I just undid a big edit that was adding NRHP listing dates and refnums into the description column for all the Ponce entries. I think but am not sure the source may have been the www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com website, which is a private website mirroring the public domain NRIS database. The table was already constructed using the NRIS database. The dates appear already in the date column of the table. And, the date, refnum, and other information from the National Register Information System (NRIS) database are easily added to any individual place article in a NRHP infobox, so including the refnum in the description column does not seem helpful. To let you know, there is a useful NRHP infobox generator tool, developed and supported by User:Elkman. You can use it to get a cut-and-paste ready infobox to use in a new article for any but the most recent NRHP listings (actually for any older than 3/2009). Try it, say searching on "Zaldo" and "PR" and you will get an infobox filled out with NRIS information including refnum and listing date for "Nebot, Zaldo de, Residencia". You can then further edit the infobox, say to unwrap it to show as "Zaldo de Nebot Residencia" instead. I use this generator whenever I have pictures or other information and am ready to start an article on a NRHP-listed place. doncram (talk) 09:11, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

NRIS errors
Also, it is known that there are some errors in NRIS. If a different source can be found which shows corrected info, a wikipedia article should show corrected information. But to address the errors in NRIS, a number of NRHP editors have been identifying errors and reporting them in batches to the National Register. It's a slow process but it has been working. One good reason to do this is to help correct NRIS and eventually the several websites like the "NRHP.COM" private site which show incorrect information, so that future editors do not "correct" our corrections back to the incorrect information, based on these sources. Please see wp:NRIS info issues for apparent NRIS errors noted so far. The central National Register will make changes if it is just their typo. Other changes will require their checking with the Puerto Rico State Historic Preservation Office (PR SHPO) and possibly having the PR SHPO submit a change request form. Please don't change NRIS-based info in articles without also making a note there, to further the correction process. All other editors can be more confident in your "corrections" if u put a note there, also, because we would eventually hear back from the National Register if our "correction" is in fact a mistake.

Note: coordinates being off should just be corrected. Also the NRHP name for a property being spelt differently, without Spanish-language accents, is not an error, though it differs from the common name for a place which should be used as the wikipedia article title. The NRHP name is what the property is listed as, on the National Register. The NRHP name should show in the NRHP list-article, although links may go to differently accented article names. I think that NRHP names should appear in the NRHP infobox and usually also in bold in the article lede, too. Of course if the NRHP name is simply wrong otherwise it should be corrected. Official NRHP names are shown also in a PDF document prepared by the PR SHPO, linked from wp:NRIS info issues. doncram (talk) 16:05, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

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