Talk:National Socialist Program/Archive 1

Older discussion
Early National Socialism/draft Proposed page.

I want to ask a question here&mdash;Does this sound like a bunch of conservatives? Does this sound like monarchists?


 * Let me ask you another question here: How much of this program was actually IMPLEMENTED by the Nazis? I don't care what they sound like - I only care about what they did. The "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" sounds like a democratic republic, but that's not what it is, is it?

All citizens of the State shall enjoy equal rights and duties. This is straight from the French Revolution. What monarchist or reactionary writes this Mr. Ernst Nolte? Equalite, Fraternite, Liberte! and death is what follows.


 * First of all, citizens did not enjoy equal rights and duties in Nazi Germany. Second of all, please do tell, what is the opposite of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity (Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité)? Hmmm, let me see... Oh yes, it's Slavery, Hierarchy, Tyranny. Thousands of people have shed their blood fighting against those three forms of utter evil, and I would join them without a single hesitation if necessary. Death is what followed from the despotic rule of the kings and emperors that have enslaved Humanity for thousands of years. They have sown the wind and reaped the whirlwind. The French Revolution signaled the beginning of our long struggle for freedom, and incidentally, "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" is also my personal motto.

'''We demand the end of all income unearned by work or effort. ''' Who writes this but socialists. We demand that all war profits be taken over by the State.


 * Right, so in your opinion, the "evil" socialists are the ones demanding that income should be proportional to work and effort, while you and your beloved reactionaries want income to not have anything to do with the actual work a person does? You're saying that you want people to get loads of money without working, which is certainly not helping your cause.

We demand that the State take over all large businesses, such as trusts. Didn't parlimentarian England do this???? Didn't America threaten this too that is why Ford, Mellon, Carnegie formed trusts so that the government wouldn't seize their money?


 * Ford? Would that be the same anti-semitic Ford that sympathized with the Nazis and gave them lots of money? The Nazis never put their money where their mouth was. Their State didn't take over large businesses and trusts, because the rich were their bed-buddies.

We demand profit sharing in large concerns.Do not all unions use force to accomplish this task?? Here in America, is this not what unions have?


 * First of all, since when is profit sharing a bad thing? Second of all, unions use collective bargaining to defend their rights. Without unions, odds are we'd still be working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, in sweatshop conditions and for barely enough money to keep us alive - just like in the 19th century - while the rich would be amassing even more immense wealth than they are now. Oh, but I forgot - that's what you want, isn't it? A return to the "good old days" when any attempt at unionization meant you'd be flogged to death, and when socialists were routinely jailed or executed.


 * And third of all, this is yet another point of the NS program that the Nazis didn't put in practice.

'''We demand old age pensions. ''' Did not FDR do this? Isn't this why Fasces symbols showed up on American dimes? Isn't this the creed of the Democratic Party????


 * Oh, I see, your creed is that old people should be let to starve and rot. The only thing you seem to be accomplishing with this argument is showing yourself to be worse than the Nazis, which is hardly a point in your favor.

We demand a healthy middle class. We demand land reform. We demand a ruthless struggle against profiteers, who must be punished with death. We demand that the Roman law be replaced by German law. No monarchist nor conservative would write this.


 * Why not? Being a monarchist or conservative has nothing to do with supporting Roman law.

We demand that our whole system of education be revised. The State must provide for improvement of public health by protecting mothers and children, ending child labor, and supporting health education for the young.This sounds like the American Democratic party.


 * Ok, so let me see... in your opinion, ending child labor is bad?

We demand the formation of a national army. We demand an end to the lying press. We demand religious freedom, in so far as any religion does not work against the state.This is right out of the French Revolution.


 * As opposed to the situation before the French Revolution, when religious freedom didn't exist at all, that was a major improvement.

To carry out these demands we call for the creation of a strong central authority in the Reich. Funny to see Leftists and democrats attack people who uphold state rights and federalism in America.


 * Uh, there's nothing "Leftist" about a "strong central authority". You're a monarchist, right? So tell me, weren't your beloved kings an example of a "strong central authority", too? Wasn't Louis XIV, for instance, a really strong central authority?

Nazism and Fascism is of the Right???? This is pure leftist planks. FDR copied these as much as he could. Herbert Hoover is really a reactionary.


 * Nazism and Fascism are of the Right because Nazism and Fascism upheld hierarchy, inequality (as between Germans and Jews) and property (Hitler and Mussolini proclaimed their attachement to private property hundreds of times). Furthermore, both Nazism and Fascism had an extreme hatred for all Leftist groups, both of them banned unions and socialist parties, both of them tortured and killed socialists and communists, and both of them started a World War to purge Europe of communism.

I do not believe in Snow jobs that is being perpetrated in American academia and on college and university campuses everywhere. Funny to see that in all the books on Nazism, other than Synders who has printed this? Who has talked about this????


 * Historians prefer to talk about what the Nazis actually did rather than what they said they were going to do before they came to power.

We demand....We demand....We demand....  Ever go to one of those UN/USA groups? That is what they do sit around and make laws and then enforce them immediately. They teach kids to act like this. They teach kids that in order to change the world all one has to do is make a law. Whatever their opinion is, make a law, and force everybody. WHEELER 16:53, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Ok, you go ahead and change the world without making any demands or any laws. Good luck with that. - Mihnea Tudoreanu

WHEELER, you confuse what the Nazis said with what they did. Consider what parts of the programme they implemented and what parts they did not. Consider also the centrality that anti-Semitism had to Nazi ideology yet the fleeting nature to the Jews in this programme. Nothing about deporting the Jews from Germany let alone killing off the Jews of Europe AndyL 00:32, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

How long Andy were you going to keep this a secret? When were you going to tell the rest of us or were you and others hoping that this would not come to light? Confuse with what they said with what they did? What you say is what you are. Look at your thinking Andy. What is one of the principles of logic and reasoning. Like produces like. Jesus said, "Can good fruit come from a bad trees?". Their words are *signs* of who they are. You are what you produce. Words are productions of one's soul. Words are signs of the soul.


 * News flash: Sometimes, people actually lie.

But what is here is that "they" are trying to keep this a secret.

By the way Andy on your Nazism article, how come the ideology of the Nazism is all based on Mein Kampf when the party and 70,000 members existed before Mein Kampf ever came out? How does one do that? How can you explain the existence of the party before the ideology comes out? The ludicrisouness of the Nazism article and the ideological section is apparent when the ideology was written in l924 but the party started without Hilter and without Mein Kampf? Explain that to me. WHEELER 13:55, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * The Party was transformed by Hitler, and Mein Kampf became its ideology. There were hardly any traces left of the old DAP by the 1930's. Here's another news flash for you: Ideologies evolve. If a party or political group starts out with a certain ideology, that doesn't mean it will actually keep it. Look at the Democrats and the Republicans in America. They both have completely different ideologies today than they had 30 years ago, for example, or 60 years ago.

Andy, do you see the word "Equal" in the document. Equal only comes with two verbs. "IS" and "MAKES". If something is already equal, the word "IS" is used. But if things are unequal, as in nature and human society and in all of God's creation, then, in order to have things "equal" because we don't like the way God made us or the reality He created, then we have to "MAKE" things equal.


 * Over 60% of the world's population doesn't believe in your god. And of those that do, very few happen to hold your twisted views about Him. Your Appeal to Authority is worthless. And let me make one thing clear: A god that wishes to perpetuate inequality and oppression is a filthy, disgusting evil entity that is not worthy of being worshipped. If such a god existed, I would spit on it. However, I do not believe such a god exists. I am a Christian, and my God - which is quite obviously not the same as yours, despite your affiliation to Christianity - is a God who sent His Son to Earth to spread an unmistakably socialistic message.
 * Oh, and by the way, nothing is unequal in nature. Equality and inequality are concepts created by human beings.

Hitler and his cronies, were peasants, they wanted to be kings and so they had to make everything equal.


 * Where there are kings, there is no equality. Where there are dictators, there is no equality. You must be living in denial if you think Hitler was "equal" to the average German - or that Germans were "equal" with Jews under Nazi rule.

Jews are inferior to Ayrans Hitler said.


 * Exactly. He said that "Jews are inferior to Aryans". "Inferior". In other words, unequal.

In order to make all the Germans into Equality, you can't have the jews around for the making of equality. So the Jews had to go.


 * What an absurdity! "In order to make Equality, you need Inequality". It seems you are very skilled in the ways of doublethink.

Equality is a concept unleashed in the French Revolution. comes from Roussea, comes from Athens. You, and the people who champion equality, are preaching your own death. Nazism is only another form of the French Revolution. WHEELER 14:30, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Riiiiiight... The greatest statement of inequality in history (the purging of "inferior races" by the Nazis) is an example of "equality" in your view... And, also in your view, Nazism is just another form of the thing Hitler hated with every fiber of his being (one of the philosophical ideals of the Nazis was to undo the French Revolution; Hitler proclaimed "1789 is undone" after he came to power).


 * WHEELER, the full programme really shouldn't be in the encyclopedia. We can do an external link for that. A wikipedia article should be about something, not a recitition. See, for instance, the article on the Regina Manifesto ie the article is *about* the Manifesto, not the Manifesto itself. Actual source material should go to Wikisource, not Wikipedia. AndyL 08:12, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Can someone find the whole text of the Austrian party platform. This should also be put into the External Links.WHEELER 19:00, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Writing that first paragraph:
 * In the German development, cultural(media) and governmental power is to be held striclty by Ayran Germans so that the country is guided only by one racial group. It is about shutting out "foreign influences". The program states the goal of the movement of the realisation of Pan-Germanism, of collecting all Germans into one state and then removing all foreign elements. Only those of German descent will be citizens so that they will be the only ones able to control and guide the nation's destiny which was important to them.

Is exactly what went on in Kossovo and in Israel today. Muslims have swamped the Christian minority in Kossovo and the Muslims are suppressed in Israel and threaten to overwelm them. Culture is in people and a majority of Israelis are now seeing the need of expelling their Muslims from the country. I also see the "collecting" all the Jews in Israel as the same thing Pan-Germanism wanted. I just realized that there is an affinity between Zionism and Pan-Germanism.WHEELER 15:28, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Just one problem: The greatest supporters of Israel are your own beloved conservatives. Oops.

I've finally figured out who Andy l reminds me of-- a little dictator. WHEELER 21:29, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That is completely uncalled for and inappropriate. AndyL 22:00, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It is kind of funny. No compromise but total deletion. What about the sentences on equality? What about the racial stuff? I even sweetened the water trying to put in your POV with the race stuff and I still couldn't get anything past.

Demand
From Elements of Socialism Pg 340 “…the French Socialist Party and several other Socialist parties, demand the abolition of the Senate

Pg 341 “In nearly every country, also, the Socialists demand that all judges be popularly elected.”

“…and has led to the adoption by the Socialist Party of a demand for the abolition of the power of the Supreme Court to pass upon the constitutionality of laws.”

“It may be said that in this demand the Socialists are returning to the principles upon which the nation itself was founded.”

“In conformity with this Socialist demand, …”

Pg 344,

“The Socialist Party demands that the enormous risks of modern industry be borne by the nation instead of by the individual workers and their families.”WHEELER 22:40, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

To demand is socialist terminology and methodology. In the article "Hitler and the Deutsche ArbeiterPartie", Reginald Phelps writes, in Nazism and the Third Reich, by Henry Turner, Jr, ""We demand" (Wir Fordern) sound distinctly like Hitler". Pg 13. Well, the Austrian Document has "it demands" and a Socialist book has "demand" "demand" and more "demand". "To demand" is socialist terminology.


 * What? You are honestly trying to tell us that only socialists "demand" anything? Seriously, are you completely insane? If a document starts with "we demand the complete eradication of all socialist elements from society and a return to reactionary monarchy", is that being "socialist", too?


 * WHEELER, your whole statement about "We demand" equalling socialism is completely POV. What does that mean for the US Constitution which begins with "We the people"? You described the statement yourself as "commentary" when you submitted it. Despite castigating me for not listing references there are no references for this "commentary" it is simply your opinion and as you well know that's not appropriate for wikipedia. I'm sorry it took you two hours to write it but that doesn't justify the inclusion of POV commentary into an article. Sorry, you are conducting original research and then drawing your own conclusions and writing them into an article. That's not accepted practice and this has been pointed out to you by others in the past. Again, your two paragraphs are your POV, they don't belong in an article. AndyL 22:13, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Equality is stated in the Program and Equality was central to the French Revolution. Let me quote from Hitler, "We are the full counterpart of the French Revolution".
 * "Counterpart" as in "opposite", you fool.

That program is completely from the French Revolution. I had a difficult time with the Classic Definition of Republic because it is nowhere taught in any college and university. yet, it is now accepted. I was also charged for doing "original research". yet, when I unpacked my books, I found a modern book with that statement in it. Now, American universities are all slanted one way. As I did in the Classic definiton of a Republic, this is not new ground it is just ground covered up that i am unfolding.WHEELER 00:47, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have also put up the Fascist Manifesto of l919. There is no clearer evidence of the Socialist character of Fascism and Nazism. There is no way to get around this.WHEELER 20:08, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * You mean socialist origins. Just like present-day American Liberalism is a leftist movement with rightist origins. The Fascist Manifesto called for a huge number of things that were later hated by Fascism and Nazism -such as democracy, for example. The Fascist Manifesto called for free and fair elections, and universal suffrage at age 18. But unless you've been living under a rock for the past 80 years, you know very well that this is not what the Fascist did in practice - in fact, they even changed their theory soon afterwards, to fit with their new anti-democratic and anti-socialist character.

Czech

 * ==Czech Party Platform==

In Eger (northwest Bohemia), Franko Stein was a member of the German National Workers' League. In 1898, he organized a German National Workers' Congress where a twenty-five point program was first promulgated.

What does the German National Workers League have to do with National Socialism? It sounds like you are conflating things again, WHEELERAndyL 07:47, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This is about the history of the 25-point program. It was a DAP party and that was called a party congress not a party. Von Kuehnelt traced the workings of that program. What basis of judgement do you have Absolutely nothing ANDY. WHEELER 13:52, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

'which is a part of modern Czechoslovakia' ?????? Morwen - Talk 13:54, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

YEs.

"It is not accidental that the big Masaryk Encyclopedia (Masarykuv Ottuv Naucny), Under the heading "National Socialism" features both the Czech and the German National Socialist parties. The foundations for the later were laid among the Germans of Bohemia in 1897 when a small periodical Der Hammer was moved from Vienna to EGER ( in northwest Bohemia).  Its editor was Franko Stein a membe of an organization called the German Workers League.  Backed by his paper, Stein was bable to organize a German National Workers Congress in Eger in 1898.  where a twenty-five point program was adopted.  a program rather similar to the Linz program of Georg von Schonerer, Austria's most prominent nationalist leader.  (The Linz program had been partly drawn up by Victor Adler, who later left the nationalist camp and became Austia's leading Social democrat  But these nationalist workers (soon headed by a bookbinder called Ferdinand Burschovsky distrusted Schonerer, they considered him too Bourgeouis to rally or lead class-conscious workers. They wanted socialism; they wanted a nationalism with distinctly leftist features.

They were not unseuccessful. In April 1902, a meeting of the Organization of Nationalistic Labor took place in SAAZ and in December of the same year a mass demonstration was held in Reichenberg. The group, named The German Political Labor League for Austria, boasted 26.000 members and Schonnerer's national-liberal attitude was flatly rejected.

On November 15, 1903, a further steip was taken in Assig: A political party was formed called the German Workers Party in Austria (DAP)." Leftism Revisited, von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, pg 146-147.

Well you shouldn't have called it "Czech party program" as you did initially as that implied a relation to the Czech National Socialist Party which was also founded in 1898 and since the people at this congress were not Czechs but Sudetenland Germans (remember this was before the fall of the Austro-Hungarian empire). AndyL 14:20, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If you allowed me to finish National Socialism, this information would have been in there. Again, I want to point out to you, that Hitler, and Mussolini did not invent any of this at all. They picked up on it and ran with it. As Prof Schapiro says, Fascism did not roll of the chin of Mussolini.

If you let me continue, "Hans Knirsch who hailed from Moravia, proposed callin ti the German Social Workers Party of the National Socialist Workers party." The Bohemian delegates rejected the proposed name because they didn't want to be charged with copying the Czech National Socialists. In April, 1918 they tried again, defeated, but a month later were successful. This is the Czech Influence. It wasn't adapted earlier because of the animosity between Czechs and Germans.WHEELER 14:31, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER, I am not allowing or forbidding anything. Stop making everything so personal. The community has rejected your article - I wasn't even the one who proposed deleting it but you so want a scapegoat that you blame me for all your ills that you keep attacking me instead of reflecting on your own behaviour. Circumventing the community's decision by trying to turn a disambig article into an an article will not impress anyone and will only cause everyone's impatience with you to escalate. I've completely lost my patience with you and I don't know why you keep trying to engage me. Why don't you just go somewhere where you can write the argumentative essays you want to write instead of trying to force your will into a structure that cannot and will not fulfill your needs. You want to write POV articles. Fine, go do that but Wikipedia is not the place for it. 14:48, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Background: At this time Czeckoslovakia and Austria did not exist as seperate countries. They both existed under the Austria-Hungary Empire. These programs of the Sudetenland (Czechoslovakia) and Austrian developed under the Habsburg monarchy and in one country at the time. Different German Worker parties developed in Vienna, Aussig, and Eger.

Please proofread what you write. The bolded sentence makes no sense.