Talk:National Treasure (Japan)

Gallery
As noted, Japan has more than 1000 national treasures and I don't think it's realistic to list all of them. Instead, I am thinking to make a gallery of notable National Treasures of Japan. Does anyone have some comment? --219.122.169.128 08:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

None of this makes any sense. The Zenkō-ji in Nagano, and its constituent parts are, in fact, National Treasures, but the prefecture is not even listed among the statistical numbers. What gives? All of this needs to be researched much better... NeoThe1
 * P.S. Do you even know how to make galleries? Please do not spam talk pages with huge, disorganised images. NeoThe1 15:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In the photographies above, I changed the list of the building etc.
 * It looks like content of textbooks of the schools of the large majority of Japan. That is, it is a list based on an average Japanese broad recognition. --663highland (talk) 12:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

OK. This chart may satisfy you.

Source: Database of National Cultural Properties, the Agency for Cultural Affairs of Japan.


 * Hey, this is pretty damn cool! NeoThe1 15:35, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

There is still a problem. Do you have any idea how to do with the section of | List of National Treasures.

These are obviously wrong,
 * Hirosaki (Hirosaki Castle)
 * Matsuyama Castle (Iyo)
 * Grand Shrine of Ise
 * Shuri Castle
 * Kamakura (Tsurugaoka Hachiman Shrine); see also Engaku-ji, above

These are inaccurate,
 * Asuka, Nara (Takamatsuzuka Kofun)
 * Dewa Three Mountains
 * Hon'ami Kōetsu
 * Kano Eitoku
 * Kotokuin
 * Ogata Korin
 * Sesshu

I dont, and I dont wish you to urge me to build the list of ALL the national treasures.--60.56.39.14 06:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Why the hell not? It would ve a) very cool and b) very encyclopaedic...if you could substantiate it, like the list above. NeoThe1 15:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Sacred Mirror
The following exchange was copied from Talk:Ise Shrine:
 * There is only one national treasure in Ise shrine (Jingu-shicho, not Naiku ). 玉篇巻 is Makimono, not mirror. And "Sacred Mirror" (八咫鏡 and etc.) is not a national treasure. --N yotarou 18:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why isn't the mirror a national treasure? It should be. If Israel still had the Ark of the Covenant, it would probably be a national treasure (although I'm not sure about whether Israel designates national treasures). We honor the Constitution and Declaration of Independence with a federal facility, and Britain exhibits similar diligence with the Magna Carta and Stone of Scone. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 05:46, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And, of course, Amaterasu's Mirror is honored with the shrine itself, isn't it? So why not make it a National Treasure? 204.52.215.107 (talk) 05:51, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that anonymous 204.52.215.107 proposes an excellent question; and in suggesting what appeared to have been a well-reasoned answer, this user demonstrates how understandable it is to wrongly conflate national treasure with National Treasures of Japan.
 * I wonder if it might be a good idea to re-frame this helpful question so that this illustrative mistake can be incorporated into the main text of the article about cultural properties designated as "National Treasures" (国宝)? -- Tenmei

I wonder if others will agree with me that this was a very good question and a plausibly helpful illustrative mistake? --Tenmei (talk) 15:14, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * From a practical perspective, you cannot make something a National Treasure of Japan without allowing someone to see it, which is forbidden, and without confirming its location, which is never done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.223.207 (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Organisation of the list
Concerning this phrase from the article: "structures" here refers to sites; the number of actual buildings is higher

Why are Ginkaku-ji's Tōgu-dō and Ginkaku (Silver Pavillion) different sites (according to the phrase and the list) while parts of Tōshō-gū in Nikkō are listed together under Tōshō-gū? Please also have a look at this discussion. bamse (talk) 00:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Lists of National Treasures
I generated and am slowly working on List of National Treasures of Japan (temples) which together with the other lists would provide a complete list of buildings/structures which are National Treasures of Japan. (Because of lack of time, I am not going to do the same for other types of National Treasures.) I noticed that many of the individual castle, shrine,... articles don't mention the National Treasures. With these lists it is very easy to add information on which part of a temple, castle, etc. is a National Treasure. Please fell free to add to the individual articles. You also might want to link back to the lists. bamse (talk) 04:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * List of National Treasures of Japan (castles)
 * List of National Treasures of Japan (miscellaneous structures)
 * List of National Treasures of Japan (residences)
 * List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines)
 * I completed the list on temple structures. It can be found at List of National Treasures of Japan (temples). bamse (talk) 08:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Next is List of National Treasures of Japan (ancient documents). Feel free to add to the list. bamse (talk) 05:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Done.bamse (talk) 23:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

National Treasures of Japan outside of Japan
Are there any National Treasures of Japan which are located outside of Japan? bamse (talk) 05:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No! Export of National Treasures is forbidden (it is allowed for Important Cultural Properties). bamse (talk) 21:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Interested in Japanese art or architecture?
...join in this project. bamse (talk) 07:39, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I want to join in this project. Please.--663highland (talk) 12:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Great! You are very welcome! What are you mainly interested in? I noticed that you created articles on temples (very good!). There are tasks on the todo list and there are things that people are working on. You can choose from the tasks or create your own task. Please let me know what you would like to do. bamse (talk) 15:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for welcoming me. I am interested in the Japanese culture, the buddhist temple, and architecture. I saw User:Bamse/National Treasures of Japan. And, I became very happy feelings. I noticed it was you that started writing those articles. Are you a scholar related to the Japanese culture? I was surprised at the excellent content. --663highland (talk) 12:35, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the compliment. I am glad that you liked the articles. No, I am not a scholar on Japanese culture. I am just interested in Japanese culture: mainly in architecture, sculptures and paintings. With your interest in architecture, maybe you would like to do one of the following: 1. find pictures for List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines), List of National Treasures of Japan (temples), List of National Treasures of Japan (residences) or any other list, 2. create new articles for national treasure temples and shrines (as you did). What do you think? Please ask if anything is unclear or if you have questions. bamse (talk) 19:07, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I added your name to the project page. Hope that it is ok. bamse (talk) 10:37, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for kind. May I edit User:Bamse/National Treasures of Japan without permission?
 * I hope there is no change in the list (List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines), List of National Treasures of Japan (temples), List of National Treasures of Japan (residences) or any other list) that exists now. However, I hope for new establishment of "National treasure of Japan" category in subdivision. It is the same division as Japanese Wikipedia. The article wants to be a little now, and, therefore, to execute it. I think that the category is enlarged in the future. --663highland (talk) 15:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Feel free to edit the ongoing effort section. Please let me know if you want to have anything in the other sections corrected or changed. What do you mean by "change in the list"? bamse (talk) 17:31, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry my explanation was insufficient. The meaning of "Change in the list" is "Division of the list". I do not support "Division of the list". --663highland (talk) 14:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I would love to join the effort but I'm relatively new to Wikipedia so I'm not sure how. Acire93 (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Expansion notice and a question
I started to expand the article and will ad more info over the next week or so. The article might look a bit rough in that process; my apologies. The section Former_and_present_national_treasures (which should be merged with the rest of the article) claims that there were "5,824 art works and 1,059 buildings". I could not find a source for these numbers. Does anybody know a reference for it?bamse (talk) 00:34, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Since I could not find a reference for the numbers and did not receive any reply, I removed the sentence from the article and put it here not to lose it completely:
 * Before 1950, all the state-designated cultural properties were called "National Treasures". At that time, 5,824 art works and 1,059 buildings were so designated. bamse (talk) 11:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess that your judgment was correct.
 * "National Treasures of Japan" is divided in Japan on the boundary of 1950. It is "National Treasures of Japan" and "Important Cultural Property of Japan".--663highland (talk) 12:47, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It says accurately. All "National Treasures of Japan" was changed to the name of "Important Cultural Property of Japan" (in 1950). "National Treasures of Japan" was chosen again from among that (in 1951).--663highland (talk) 12:53, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed it because I don't have a reference for the numbers (5,824 and 1,059). Do you have a source for these numbers?bamse (talk) 14:36, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It is the same as the number of "National Treasures of Japan" in 1950 (Common name "Former National Treasures of Japan"). Please see ja:国宝--663highland (talk) 15:23, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. But do you have a source which is not wikipedia?bamse (talk) 16:25, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I was not able to find a source with the authority. --663highland (talk) 11:29, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've translated the section from Japanese Wikipedia. After the bamse's notice, I went to a library, but could not find books about it. So I agree to remove now. I will keep searching for more information.--Mochi (talk) 14:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

many items destroyed in the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake

 * Many items in the Tokyo National Museum were destroyed in the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake. See Tokyo national Museum, The Great Kanto Earthquake and the Museum : From Taisho to Showa era Ling.Nut3 (talk) 13:12, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The page you link says: "Luckily, many of the items escaped damage...", so not sure what to make out of your comment. I'd certainly be interested in a source that tells a bit more about the pre 1950 National Treasures, i.e. what objects were included, which items were lost in earthquakes, war,.... bamse (talk) 15:58, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I spent some time looking, with little luck. Based on clues from my search results (see below) I do believe many treasures were lost, but I did not find anything resembling a good account. There were strong hints: the museum was "badly damaged", an entire National Library was destroyed along with most of its documents, different block print artists and so on "lost an entire studio" etc. But most of that came from Google Books with "snippet view" only. I found little in Google scholar. The "many of the items escaped damage" means that many also didn't, BTW. maybe a Japanese-language search would have better luck, but I'm not the person for that. Ling.Nut3 (talk) 16:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt that many National Treasures were damaged or destroyed. After all there used to be many more National Treasures before 1950 (likely including most of today's Important Cultural Properties of Japan). Still one should be careful, since the TNM page you linked above, does not mention "National Treasures" but only "treasures" which may or may not be the same. bamse (talk) 18:21, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems I have not been communicating effectively. The link I gave above was just a minor (but reliable) bit of support for the idea that this "heads up" is a valid one. My underlying point is this: this is a nontrivial omission from this article, and it needs to be very diligently researched and very thoroughly covered before bringing the article back to WP:FAC. if this were at FAC, I would Oppose (and would be unwilling to change my Oppose), based on this omission alone,  as per 1b of WP:WIAFA. I have already searched a little, and came up nearly completely empty-handed. Some Japanese-language searching needs to be done, preferably with input from a domain expert. I am not trying to be rude; I am trying to be plain...  To give you a bit of context, I am here to help in any way I can, including copy editing, research, etc., if/when i have time... Ling.Nut3 (talk) 05:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Just to make sure, by "this omission" you mean the National Treasures that were destroyed/damaged in the 1923 earthquake? bamse (talk) 07:57, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * What you add depends on what you find. If there exists a full listing of all of the National Treasures destroyed, that would make an interesting spin-off "List of" article with some good redlinks and interesting details (see the link at Talk:Chōjirō for a tiny example; I hope there will be much more). If you find a good discussion of this topic, that would make at least a nice paragraph and hopefully even enough for a section. If you find a LOT of stuff, then it would make a spin-off article. In all of the above cases, at LEAST a coupe sentences in this article would be necessary, and in fact I really think that more than that can be done. I suspect that everything depends on a Japanese-language search and some good investigative skills (including asking people who would know). The fact that this topic isn't even mentioned right now is.. uh.. kinda unacceptable. I hope I am not too blunt. :-) Ling.Nut3 (talk) 08:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I will see what I can find, when I get time. To be fair, there is some mention of national treasures in the "Extension of the protection" section including two treasures that were destroyed in the war. bamse (talk) 10:42, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I just spent a few moments poking around on both the English and Japanese wikipedia.s Tons of good stuff. Can you read Japanese, or know someone who can and will help? Anyhow forex there's this. That may or may not be helpful, but I'm sure we can find something that is. Ling.Nut3 (talk) 11:08, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Sure I know this. It contains a database of Cultural Properties of Japan and I used it extensively to compile the various Lists of National Treasures of Japan and lists of other Cultural Properties (see Cultural Properties of Japan). However AFAIK, it is a database of today's Cultural Properties (post 1950). I doubt there is a list of pre 1950 National Treasures available online and in any case I would not be willing to write list articles for wikipedia for those treasures due to time constraints (the present lists took a couple of years to make) and limited interest of readers. In any case most/all of those treasures are now designated as National Treasure, Important Cultural Property, etc. PS: I can read only little Japanese, however if it is in computer readable form I can make sense of most texts thanks to rikaichan. bamse (talk) 11:44, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, if no list of National Treasures destroyed in the earthquake exists, then compiling that list would be work for a PhD dissertation, at the very least... but I am sure it is not necessary to make one from scratch. I am sure one exists somewhere. If it does, then it only needs translation. There may even be one in English, but it seems unlikely. Besides, I am just painting the best-case scenario when discussing such a list. No, a Very Good (and perhaps more realistic) scenario would involve finding one or two or three very reliable discussions, using them to add a paragraph or even a section, mentioning perhaps one or two or three of the most famous works destroyed, or artists whose works were destroyed. My point is just that readers should not be left completely ignorant. Ling.Nut3 (talk) 11:51, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * As mentioned before, two treasures destroyed (Hiroshima Castle and Tōdaiji Fujumonkō) are already mentioned in the article and supported by reliable sources. bamse (talk) 14:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That would be WWII. You can't just completely skip the earthquake(s). :-) Ling.Nut3 (talk) 16:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Repetition
I feel like there is a great deal of information that gets repeated several times. For example, the fact that Kansai has a preponderance of these objects is mentioned several times.Acire93 (talk) 00:32, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Erroneous reference.
Hello, the #21 reference of the article, an important one, is erroneous. Indeed, the targeted PDF file does not contain any content about the article's subject; it is about "Japanese Language Policy", not national cultural properties. Unfortunately, I could not find the original document "Preservation and Utilization of Cultural Properties". Should this reference be removed ? It will be less damaging if someone could retrieve the proper original reference or bring another well qualified citation.--ContributorQ (talk) 23:19, 6 October 2016 (UTC)


 * That's strange. When redesigning their webpage they must have mixed up the links. The reference was certainly not about the Language Policy. Would it be possible to just remove the URL and to keep the reference as offline reference? This reference probably appears on many articles related to Cultural Properties of Japan. If that's not possible, it could be replaced by the 2015 version at http://www.bunka.go.jp/english/about_us/policy_of_cultural_affairs/pdf/2015_policy.pdf (after checking that all referenced statements are contained therein. bamse (talk) 12:24, 7 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I found the document at and corrected the archiveurl in the article. Thanks for pointing out this mistake. bamse (talk) 19:01, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Great! I did not know this website.--ContributorQ (talk) 20:14, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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NPOV
When we see the Japanese government promoting items as 'National treasures' we need to be aware that Japanese politics has been dominated by extreme right wing pro Shinto politics for decades. Some balance or criticism of the selection scheme needs to be mentioned here for the page to be reliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.225.246 (talk) 04:28, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I would disagree with this proposal. Referring to the selection as necessarily being the result of "extreme right wing politics" is inherintly a non-neutral viewpoint. (Your edit summary also backs up the point that your own POV isn't neutral - "right wing pro Shinto hacks don't get to tell us what is good.") What is more: if such a criticism of the selection process on the basis of their politics as viewed by us were to be placed on the page, it would likely be a failure to represent proper perspective - rather than focusing on Japan's perspective, such a criticism would be focused on a Western viewpoint of Japan's political system. Keep in mind that what Japan's government calls a national treasure is by default what makes it a national treasure, no matter how right or wrong the system is (or is perceived to be). NomadicNom (talk) 02:28, 28 June 2019 (UTC)