Talk:National University of Kharkiv/Archive 1

School vs. Department
Who is constantly renaming "department" into "school"? Probably he has better to get some classes in English. The ukrainian word "факультет" is unambiguously translated into English as "department". The word "school" means "школа". But there are no schools at the university! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.181.215.172 (talk) 13:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Proper English name
The proper name of the university in English is "Karazin Kharkiv National University" and not "Vasyl Karazin Kharkiv National University"! Please correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qclam (talk • contribs) 19:52, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

To avoid edit war...
please explain: Thanks — NickK (talk) 22:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) What's wrong with the article Kharkiv that we should link only to the redirect Kharkov? There was a dispute about the name in the end of January, the result was keep the name Kharkiv
 * 2) Why do you link to the non-existing commmons category instead of the correct one?
 * 3) Why don't you like Lang-uk, and Lang-ru, is something wrong with them?
 * 4) Why do you replace Kharkiv with Kharkov in the link http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?AddButton=pages\K\H\KharkivUniversity.htm?

To avoid? You want to avoid edit war, don't you!? Haven't you started it? Don't you find it a bit contradictory? ...Oh no! I won't! I won't make any excuses to you! Belay! -- Whiteroll (talk) 22:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.228.106 (talk)
 * a) It was you who made the first revert, b) I see you don't have any arguments, c) Please stop block evasions — NickK (talk) 22:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No no no! Don't string me along! (!) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kharkiv_University&diff=273583964&oldid=272964139 -- Whiteroll (talk) 22:52, 3 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.228.37 (talk)
 * Could you please comment the statements mentioned above, not the users — NickK (talk) 23:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You know, NickK, at the end of the day I have to acknowledge that you are right. This is a Ukrainian city, so as the university. I am still not a fan of the way you administer the Ukrainian Wikipedia, putting it mildly. This does not necessarily mean that you are making no useful contribution over there though. After all, this is another story. Respectfully -- Whiteroll (talk) 20:19, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Guys! It's the picture of the National Military Academy and NOT of Kharkiv National (formerly State) University! the University is acroos the Freedom Square from the Academy. Trust me, I studied there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.19.39.17 (talk) 00:38, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sadly, there is no Military Academy any longer. It was closed down many years ago. The building is now used by the University of Kharkiv as its northern academic building. -- Whiteroll (talk) 20:19, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Simon S. Kuznets
Simon Kuznets studied at Commercial Institute, not at Kharkov University. . --Васьйа (talk) 10:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The official university propaganda has another opinion :) and that is not groundless. Mr. Kuznets did study at both the Commercial Institute of Kharkov and Kharkov University. This fact is actually implied by the words "However, Kharkov University shut down with the onset of Civil War in Russia following the revolution of October 1917 and Kuznets briefly took up a position as a section head at the bureau of labor statistics in the Ukraine" as cited directly from the second PDF document you provided. Also, it should be mentioned that many teachers at the Commercial Institute were full-time professors at the Kharkov University, just for your information. I think one may find it interesting. Unfortunately, got unable to open the first link — Regards, Whiteroll (talk) 00:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Read the recent publications of Prof. Moskovkin, please. There are exhaustive facts and data there. By the way, one of his paper was published in Kharkov University's edition "Universitates": http://library.bsu.edu.ru/Resourse/Biobibl/Moskovkin.files/Moskovkin_kyz.pdf. Kuznets had nothing common with KhNU.
 * And just for you information, Kharkiv Commercial Institute was established as an exclusive project with special Curriculum, scientific programmes and specialization of education. Many scholars from Technological Institute and practical activity lectured there. If you like to discuss the facts of Kuznets biography, write the scientific paper before you will correct the article, please. --178.150.98.45 (talk) 14:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Please, be polite and try to avoid giving orders to others on what they should do or should not. Let one defend his or her point of view by means one finds the best. Also, it would surely be much appreciated if you could provide us with an English version of the article, for way not everyone understands Russian in here. In fact, very few people are able to join our discussion now. Fortunately, I do speak Russian and just read the article. Very interesting. I would like to point out that it by no means aims to refute the generally accepted version stating that Mr. Kuznets studied at University of Kharkiv. However, new different suppositions are brought up. Of course, they have the right to life as well. Anyway, even if assuming they are the only truth, there are still sufficient arguments (and they are given proof in the article) to consider Mr. Kuznets an alumnus of the university, either directly or indirectly. To say it again, this all is interesting. Nonetheless, as long as there is a page devoted to Mr. Kuznets at the official university's website, written by trustworthy Ukrainian historians (not to mention Prof. Kadeev), plus heaps of publications in very authoritative journals, e.g. this one "во время I мировой войны семья перебралась в Харьков, где он проучился два года в университете" or the one already referred above, to take away the name of Simon Kuznets from the notable alumni list is untimely and hasty, to put it mildly. P.S. Yes, it is true that the article of Mr. Moskovkin was published in "Universitates", the journal sponsored by the Association of Alumni, Teachers, and Friends of Vasyl Karazin Kharkiv National University. And that is sort of symbolic. I doubt that they would have allowed to publish anything that tears down the version of the official university propaganda. Looking forward to any comments and constructive criticism. You are always welcome to ask me to translate anything Google Translator fails to render from Ukrainian or Russian :) Cheers -- Whiteroll (talk) 18:51, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * N.B. Should be mentioned that Mr. Moskovkin is a professor of geography, not of history or at least any related field. Apparently, this fact might open his competence to question -- Whiteroll (talk) 19:03, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If you can speak Russian and write English, may be you was able to read the texts of Simon Kuznet's sertificates, cited in the paper? His Kharkiv Commercial Institute matricula, e.g.? I couldn't find any reason for further discussion.
 * Apropos, remind me any paper of Prof. Kadeev about the subject at all or paper of mentioned Moses Abramovitz devoted to early biography of S.Kuznets, please. --178.150.98.45 (talk) 00:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You seem to be neither listening to the arguments nor seeking for consensus. What I am basically saying is that tens of publications by prominent scholars in very authoritative journals have much more credibility than a single article by geography professor from provincial town. Please, elaborate on the points mentioned above, not trying to evade them, no matter how unpleasant or annoying you may find them. I think it is also about time to ask an administrator to intervene, as this is not going to lead us to anything good, but to an edit war -- Whiteroll (talk) 23:18, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Dear colleague, sufficient English sources have been cited. Please, check out this page before carrying on with the discussion. Sincerely -- Whiteroll (talk) 14:43, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You may cite the Ptolemy's work about Copernicus problem? The cited reviews had nothing common with S.Kuznets biographic study. This are the latest direct sources about S.Kuznets's Kharkov years: ; . Read it, please.
 * And please, learn to discern a brief reviews on different sites with scientific publications. --178.150.98.45 (talk) 22:36, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The Journal of Economic History is an authoritative source, is not it? M. Abramovitz is a competent man who knew Simon Kuznets personally. The same goes for the other sources' credibility. Regarding the work by E. Glen Weyl, it actually affirms that Mr. Kuznets did study at University of Kharkiv. See "However, Kharkov University shut down with the onset of Civil War in Russia following the revolution of October 1917 and Kuznets briefly took up a position as a section head at the bureau of labor statistics in the Ukraine" as cited directly from the publication. Please, review the Wikipedia policy toward the non-English sources usage before going on edit warring. This all has already been stated above. I am not getting tired to put it again. Are not you tired to distract the community? -- Whiteroll (talk) 23:19, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Whiteroll, please, stop abusing wiki-readers by ridiculously manipulated information and dummy references. Simon Kuznets was never in touch with Kharkiv University and had nothing common with it. Incorrect quotation used by you just distorts the sense of sources.

First of all, S. Kuznets never said he studied at Kharkiv University. In his Nobel Prize Biography he stated "my university studies began in Russia, and were completed at Columbia University (B.Sc. in 1923, M.A. in 1924, Ph.D. in 1926)". There is nothing about Kharkiv University, isn't it?

Secondly, you are trying to refer to Moses Abramovitz's article on JSTOR but you may not be able to get even brief acquaintance with it. Because there is not any Moses Abramovitz's article on that url with that subject and that title - you may use tertiary mentionings from somewhere. You confused it with Goldthwaite and Abramovitz's obituary written for Frederic C. Lane  (!).

Original Moses Abramovitz's articles were entitled with "Nobel Prize for Economics: Kuznets and Economic Growth" (published in "Science" 29 October 1971, Vol. 174 no. 4008 pp. 481-483). May be you mean Richard A. Easterlin's "SIMON KUZNETS (1901 - 1985). Economist, statistician, demographer, and economic historian"? Both had nothing contents related to Kharkiv Universite. I cite it both for you: "Simon Kuzncts, who won The 1971 Nobel Prize in Economic Science, was born in Kharkov in 1901. He came to his country at the age of 20 together with his brother Solomon. The two young men taught themselves English in the course of a summer, and Simon,having been admitted to advanced standing in Columbia College, gained the B.S. degree from Columbia in 1923 and a Ph.D. in 1926" and "Born in Pinsk, Russia, Kuznets was educated in Kharkov, and headed a section of the bureau of labor statistics there under the Soviet government before emigrating to the United States at the age of twenty-one. He took up studies at Columbia University, receiving his B.A. in 1923, M.A. in 1924, and Ph.D. in 1926". That's all about his university education.

But the most funny thing is that you are trying to refer the Glen E. Weyl's paper "Simon Kuznets: Cautious Empiricist of the Eastern European Jewish Diaspora" (with incorrect URL, of course, the right one is - ). And Glen E. Weyl straightly stated about Kuznets: "His education spanned from Kharkov High School #2, from October 1916 to May 1917, to the Commercial Institute of Kharkov, from 1918 to July 1921" (the source, p. 7) !!! What's more?

That is in addition to publication of Kuznets family's archives documents and other investigations in Russian mentioned above. You declare living in Kharkiv? So, go to Artema, 44 street where the historical building of Commercial Institute is located and see the commemorative tablet devoted to "Simon Kuznets Nobel Prize winner who studied at the Institute in 1918 - 1919" or look it at Харьковский коммерческий институт- in Wiki in Russian you have not so much effrontery to deny the generally recognized facts.

I think it's eminently enough to complete this inept discussion about Kuznets's what-if connection with Krarkiv University. --Trendorder2011 (talk) 11:30, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, do not you think it is a bit illogical to claim that Mr. Kuznets did not study at University of Kharkiv just because he studied at Commercial Institute? None of the sources you have mentioned proves that he did not study at the former. Nobody argues against the latter. God only knows why you are trying to draw attention to this fact over and over again. Moreover, please stop citing non-English sources as it is against the WIkipedia rules. By the way, this is not the first time you are asked not do so. As for "Association Notes: In Memoriam: Frederic C. Lane 1900-1984, Simon Kuznets 1901-1985", it seems you are not subscribed to the JSTOR, that is why you can access only the first page, right? There is a special button that reads 'Purchase Article' in the right sidebar. Please purchase it and you will see that it is made up of two parts, the former devoted to Frederic Lane and the latter dedicated to Simon Kuznets. The latter starts on page 241 where one can clearly read: "Kuznets was born in 1901 of a Jewish merchant family in Pinsk, then a Russian city. He attended the Realschule and the Kharkov University where the family had settled during the first World War". I would gladly email you the copy of this article, but it might be regarded as the violation of the copyright law which I respect. I am sure that there are many educated people who have access to the JSTOR. They can confirm that I am not lying unless you want to check it yourself. The last but not the least, I might be wrong, but in my humble opinion, the authority of Mr. Abramovitz is way more incontestable in comparison with that of a provincial geography teacher. Thanks -- Whiteroll (talk) 00:38, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Trendorder2011 mentioned this. See again: "His education spanned from Kharkov High School #2, from October 1916 to May 1917, to the Commercial Institute of Kharkov, from 1918 to July 1921.17" - "Simon Kuznets: Cautious Empiricist of the Eastern European Jewish Diaspora" by E. Glen Weyl, in "Development and Migration in America and Beyond: The Economic Life of American Jewry" Simon Kuznets; Stephanie H. Lo, Editor E. Glen Weyl, Editor - the latest academic Kuznets' work and about Kuznets work edition in English.
 * You make amendments without references on sources (Frederic C. Lane was a pen name of Simon S. Kuznets? It was not so, trust me. Trendorder2011 refered to real Abramovitz work about Kuznets - see reference above) and in defiance of sources. Looks like vandalism, Whiteroll. --80.92.225.178 (talk) 07:26, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, it is an established fact that Mr. Kuznets studied at the Commercial Institute! No objections on this, but where the heck are the English-language sources that prove he was not a student of the University of Kharkiv? I have been asking to provide them many times, yet you seem to be deliberately deaf to all my pleas. On the other hand, you never get tired of twisting what I am saying. Please give your email address and I will send you the aforementioned page 241 of "Association Notes: In Memoriam: Frederic C. Lane 1900-1984, Simon Kuznets 1901-1985". I see, you do not want to purchase the article. Even if it was free, I doubt you would bother yourself to download it. Simply because you do not want to face the truth? Please type your email address in here. I believe that sharing one single page is not going to violate the copyright law, especially if it is in such a good cause. And please stop acting like a circus clown, making unconstructive edits from different accounts and IP addresses. It is very silly of a university professor whom, I suppose, you are or claim to be. -- Whiteroll (talk) 00:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * So, you have a speculation that Kuznets could study at Kharkiv University at the same time as he did at Commercial Institute? And it is based on hypothetical third-party phrase in obituary devoted to Frederic C. Lane? Is that all? If so, we need a Third opinion, I think. --Trendorder2011 (talk) 17:13, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've just found these references: "Simon Kuznets, then a student at the University of Kharkov,...", "His education spanned from Kharkov High Schook No. 2, ..., to the Commercial Institute of Kharkov, from 1919 to July 1921. ... However, Kharkov University shut down with the onset of civil war in Russia following the revolution of October 1917, and Kuznets briefly took up a position as as a section head at the bureau of labor statistics in the Ukraine.", After graduating from the local public school, Kuznets enrolled at the University of Kharkov.". That means that he enrolled at the Commercial Institute after having attented Univ. of Kharkov. De728631 (talk) 16:42, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's in discussion above. Kuznets wrote in his Nobel Prize Biography "my university studies began in Russia, and were completed at Columbia University (B.Sc. in 1923, M.A. in 1924, Ph.D. in 1926)". It led to misunderstanding especially in brief paragraphs. Nobody was interested in Kuznets's young life up to Moskovkin's study in Russian and Weyl's in English. If you look at Weyl's references, you will see that it's the Kuznets family's archive documents where he get the direct information about Kuznets study in Kharkiv. --Trendorder2011 (talk) 17:13, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless it has been stated in multiple reliable sources that he was enrolled at the university, not only at the Commercial Institute. If you have evidence that he was not at the Kharkov University please provide it in the article as a different point of view without removing reliably sourced statements. De728631 (talk) 17:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Evidence of negative statement? Are there any special research (except Weyl's one, he stated Kuznens studied at Commercial Institute without mention of University - page 7) where the University is noted? --Trendorder2011 (talk) 20:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I prepared the following opinion with the intent that it be given here as a Third Opinion pursuant to the request pending at the Third Opinion Project, but just before posting it I discovered that I was disqualified from issuing a "real" Third Opinion because I have previously issued a 3O in a prior dispute in which De728631 was involved. This is not, therefore, an official Third Opinion but is instead merely the opinion of an ordinary, run-of-the-mill editor. Any other Third Opinion Wikipedian should feel free to issue a Third Opinion in this matter if they care to do so (though it must be noted that this non-3O opinion may cause the Third Opinion Paradox to set in):

Opinion: It is clear to me that there are at least two reliable sources which explicitly state that Kuznets studied at the University (Weyl, Perlman). One of those sources, Weyl, mentions him attending both the University and the Commercial Institute. It appears from the discussion that there may be other sources which only mention the Institute, but which do not say anything one way or another about the University. To imply from the latter sources, however reliable they might be, that Kuznets did not attend the University is prohibited original research unless some reliable source exists which clearly, explicitly, and unequivocally states either (a) that Kuznets did not attend the University or (b) that Kuznets only attended the Commercial Institute while pursuing college education in Kharkiv. Reliable sources say what reliable sources say, Wikipedia's original research policy prohibits assertions which require an analysis or interpretation (other than linguistic translation) of sources. If sources disagree or contradict one another we report both sources, but in this case there is not even a necessary disagreement or contradiction. To imply and mention in this article about the Unversity that such a disagreement or contradiction exists is original research, Kuznets should just be listed as an alumnus without comment or notation. If reliable sources are later found which meet either criteria (a) or criteria (b), above, then the contradiction should be briefly noted in a footnote, but Kuznets should still remain listed as an alumnus.

— TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 20:01, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I was not able to find mentions about Kuznets education in Kharkiv University in Weyl's papers - page 7. I have to stress the point that the Weyl's article is the latest and the only special research in English deals with Kuznets biography facts. Cursory mention against latest direct research - and "without comment or notation"?  Maybe anybody should refer to published research where the conjectured point of Kuznets' education in Kharkiv University is really stated?
 * Reference on Weyl's paper in this context "Notable alumni... Simon Kuznets" is the falsification of source. --Trendorder2011 (talk) 20:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * If I will make an addition that Isaac Newton studied at Kharkiv University - would you see any sources stated he didn't?
 * Weyl stated Kuznets studied at Commercial Institute and nothing else. I remind: there are the only special research in English about Kuznets' kharkiv period - the Weil's one. Perlman didn't research this subject. In Russian there are quite more publications, it's because Whiteroll fears to make such corrections in Russian version of the article; there it will look like outright vandalism. --Trendorder2011 (talk) 14:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Dear colleague, I kindly ask you to stop this farce. The sources we have got so far do not let exclude the name of Mr. Kuznets as a university alumnus from the article. Why do not you want to accept the reasonable argumentation provided above? "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
 * P.S. Please be assured that I will edit the Russian-language version of the article as soon as I have familiarised myself enough with the Russian Wikipedia's policy regarding the usage of non-Russian sources. -- Whiteroll (talk) 15:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Dear Whiteroll, I think Kharkiv University doesn't need a quick and dirty promotion with fraudulently ascribed Nobelist. Being a wikipedist since 2009 and a creator of 18 articles in Russian you should understand the Wikipedia's policy regarding the usage of sources and scientific principals in whole, I suppose.
 * The problem is clear: we didn't have special researches about S.Kuznets biography (not mention the Perlman's and Fogel's - they analysed Kuznets' scientific works not dealing with his early stage of life). But now we have such papers - Moskovkin's in Russian, Weyl's in English. Why should this wiki article be in contradiction with academic researches?
 * If you or Kharkiv University wants to ascribe Kuznets (or Newton) to Kharkiv University's alumni - be so, but in the article must be a reference - "according to Whiteroll's desire". That's the only I seek.  --Trendorder2011 (talk) 16:38, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * If you have a reliable source stating that Isaac Newton went to the University, then by all means add it to the article. Weyl may have not mention Kuznets' Kharkov but other sources did. Weyl does not deny that Kuznets' studied at Kharkov. Remember what matters on wikipedia is verifiability not truth. Eomund (talk) 17:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Trendorder, you say, "In Russian there are quite more publications." While WP policy says that English language sources are preferred, that doesn't mean that non-English sources are prohibited. There's nothing wrong with using Russian sources if they are reliable (and, if you do not know it already, there is a significant difference between reliability as defined by the dictionary and reliability in Wikipedia where it has a very specific meaning). If any of the Russian-language sources explicitly say that Kuznets did not attend the University or if any of them explicitly say that he only attended the Institute, then list them here and quote (in both Russian and English) the passage that says one of those things. If anyone questions the translation, we have Russian-speaking editors who can confirm that they say what you say that they do. If they only say that he attended the Institute and are silent about whether or not he attended the University, however, then they are not useful for determining this issue. Weyl's paper in English says, however, that Kuznets attended both the Institute and the University. It says (and I took this from the link that you provided):"His education spanned from Kharkov High School #2, from October 1916 to May 1917, to the Commercial Institute of Kharkov, from 1918 to July 1921. ... Around the time of his move to Kharkov, his father and older brother left for the United States through Turkey, while he stayed behind with his mother and younger brother. Because his mother was an invalid, the remaining brothers were hesitant to follow their father. However, Kharkov University shut down with the onset of Civil War in Russia following the revolution of October 1917 and Kuznets briefly took up a position as a section head at the bureau of labor statistics in the Ukraine."(Emphasis added.) The passage is talking about Kuznets' education and the italicized portion shows that Kuznets was attending the University. Otherwise, why would the University be mentioned at all in this section? At the end of the day we do not analyze sources; if they are reliable (in the Wikipedia sense) we report them; if they disagree then we report the disagreement. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 03:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I do not know why Kharkiv University is mentioned there; after it has been directly stated in the text that "Kuznets studied at "Kharkov High School #2, from October 1916 to May 1917, to the Commercial Institute of Kharkov, from 1918 to July 1921" (facts marked). The only Prof. Weyl can explain it. But what is exactly true - there is no statements like "Kuznets studied at Kharkiv University".
 * In Russian we have a Prof. Moskovkin's papers based on S.Kuznets family archives where he found direct evidences (certificates) proved Kuznets studied at Commercial Institute of Kharkov just during the time mentioned by Weyl, but there were no evidences found about his any relations with the University. --Trendorder2011 (talk) 16:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * By "there were no evidences found about his any relations with the University" do you mean that these papers specifically examined the question of whether or not he went to the University and affirmatively determined that he did not? Or do you mean that these papers merely fail to report any evidence of his having attended the University? Which do you mean? Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 19:41, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've asked a Wiki-colleague, Dmitrij Czarkoff, who speaks Russian to look at the sources which you cited in your last post, above. See the thread here. He has concluded that this source (but only that one source out of the ones which you cited) does in fact make an affirmative claim that Kuznets did not attend the University. He has, unfortunately, also concluded, however, that that source does not appear to be reliable, as "reliability" is defined by English-language Wikipedia. (Different standards or definitions of reliability may apply in non-English Wikipedias.) For purposes of Wikipedia, information contained in sources which are not Wiki-reliable does not, in effect, exist. If you believe that source is reliable in the English-language Wikipedia sense, then please state why; if some other Wiki-reliable source exists which makes an affirmative claim that Kuznets did not attend the university, please feel free to bring it forward. Otherwise, Kuznet's entry should remain in the University article without being qualified. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 15:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Demanding to prove the negative statement is a logical nonsense. Special researches demonstrate (Weyl, Moskovkin) that there is not any evidence for Kusnets association with the University - what should be the source to prove that? At least, the amendment reference should be done. --Trendorder2011 (talk) 17:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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Ranking
Updated and removed outdated rankings. Tovarischivanov (talk) 22:02, 26 January 2018 (UTC)