Talk:National University of Natural Medicine

Comments
I'd like to see a concise summary of the value of the medicine taught - in terms of being better than a placebo... if the school teaches medicine X, is X better than a placebo and better than non-medical treatment ?

60.242.147.167 (talk) 07:48, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


 * That's what the article Naturopathic Medicine and Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine are for and why wikipedia has wikilinks. -Travis Thurston+ 08:32, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

It is good to make this world healthier and better through the priniciples of nature. Nature means everything will be done without external force. The rule is very simple.

Kyu Hyun Park, MD —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qhynbak (talk • contribs) 08:45, April 27, 2007


 * Thank you Dr. Park! The whole world is working together to make that much need difference in healthcare.
 * Single decisions making a world of change. Thanks for your support! --Travisthurston 15:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to remind you that this page is not for discussing the topic of the article, but is for discussing improvements to the article itself. Thanks. Katr67 16:17, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

This reads like a brochure. --Wee Jimmy 19:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Explanation of my recent edits
Removing bolding and external links within article per WP:MOS. Only first word of section titles should be capitalized, and NCNM should not be placed on section headings (each section is about the subject of the article).

Removal of peacock terms and redundant phrasing, "extensive, unique, geared to, in its course offerings, more universal, opens numerous, in which students are immersed, designed for students with a special affinity, wanting a more streamlined graduate experience, fully". If actually extensive needs a RS that describes it that way, likewise with unique or a description of how its unique. Geared to unless we are talking about gears this is marketing. In its course offerings is redundant. More universal with an explanation this is unnecessary, however universality is a pretty large if vague claim. Students are immersed, describe how program is immersive provide a RS that says it is notable for that. Designed for students with a special affinity, designed for students is a given for a school and special affinity sounds like peacock for interest in. Wanting a more streamlined graduate experience is marketing peacock speak for shorter/smaller course of study. Fully (accredited) is assumed if only partially accredited that would be spelled out.

Removed wikilink on word school to article Medical school NCNM is not a medical school as described in target article.

Adding ref improve tag: the entire Academic programs section has only the two refs supporting accreditation, the NCNM clinic section is completely unsourced as is the Accreditations and associations section and the NCNM history section.

I placed 3 citation needed tags on some statements that definitely need references. These are very specific in addition to the article in general needing improved references.

Additional proposed edits:

I think expertise in "with an expertise in natural medicine" should be removed if it can't be supported with a reference. Expertise is substantial claim for education and training only. I am not sure what "a holistic Chinese medicine education in Western medical sciences" means. "Since its founding, NCNM has sought to preserve and convey the classical modalities of naturopathy and honor the principles that guide naturopathic care:" could be rephrased, "to preserve and convey the classical modalities and honor the guiding principles of naturopathy:" if that preserves the meaning. "The college is alma mater to over 2,000 alumni" is redundant if your an alumni it's your alma mater. - - MrBill3 (talk) 21:06, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Primary care physicians?
It is inaccurate to call a grad from the ND program at NCNM a primary care physician, and the way this is presented in the article appears to be an WP:advert. PCP are generally recognized as being MD/DO grad who then complete a residency at a program approved by the AAMC, which may includes specialities in paediatrics, family medicine, or internal medicine. There are only a number of U.S. states that consider NDs to be PCPs, and even so, this designation has been called questionable by the medical community. Trhermes (talk) 09:34, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Quoting from this article: "NCNM's programs are controversial for teaching subjects that are considered pseudoscience and quackery by the scientific and medical communities."

This article would be improved and more balanced by removing the loaded terms "quackery" and "pseudoscience." While NCNM's programs are controversial to some, labeling a fully accredited school's curriculum as based on pseudoscience is unfair in part because it is impossible to fully refute. For instance, one could argue that a certain herb or pharmaceutical lacked adequate research to prove its efficacy, and cite third party studies to back that up. On the other hand, it would be fairly easy to call the drug or herb "useless" or a "fraud" with citations. That kind of name calling, even with attribution, is perhaps appropriate in a magazine article where bias can be expected, but not in an encyclopedia where balanced discussion in valued.

So, to improve and add balance to the article, I offer the following information: “Naturopathic physicians (NDs) are trained as primary care physicians in 4-year, accredited doctoral-level naturopathic medical schools. At present, there are 15 US states, 2 US territories, and several provinces in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand that recognize licensure for NDs.”2 Prim Care. 2010 Mar; 37(1):119-36. doi: 10.1016/j.pop.2009.09.002 Fleming SA, Gutknecht NC.

In addition, states are generally not in the business of licensing quackery and pseudo-science: Naturopathic physician licensing, training, Oregon Revised Statutes Oregon Law makes it clear that only licensed naturopaths are allowed to call themselves Doctor of Naturopathy, or ND. In order to qualify for licensing, Doctors of Naturopathy must complete at least two years of college study and graduate from an accredited naturopathic school or college. In addition, every licensed Doctor of Naturopathy must complete at least 25 hours of continuing education and an approved pain management program. ORS1685.020 Chapter 2, http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/685.020;ORS2685.060 Minimum educational requirements for license • rules http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/685.060; ORS3685.102 Continuing education required http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/685.102 The article on NCNM ends (header “Criticism”) with the same assertions about quackery and pseudoscience. Again, while there is room for debate on the scientific merits of herbalism, acupuncture, etc., but name calling does little to further this debate.

A further look at the NCNM naturopathic curriculum shows that herbalism and homeopathy are not part of the core requirements for a doctoral degree, but are offered as electives. Acupuncture is only offered as part of degree programs in the School of Classical Chinese Medicine. Core naturopathic courses include anatomy, microbiology, immunology, physiology, neurology, cardiology, pulmonology, hematology, oncology, gastroenterology, rheumatology, dermatology, psychology and several other typical medical school courses: 2015–2016 Course Catalog, ND Four-Year Curriculum, page 49 http://studentservices.ncnm.edu/files/2013/03/2015-16_NCNM_course_catalog_FINAL1.pdf

As for primary care, naturopathic physicians are recognized as primary care providers (PCPs), both by the State of Oregon and the Federal government under the Affordable Care Act: Naturopathic clinic designated as top tier primary care facility http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2015/08/naturopathic_clinic_designated.html Nicole Patterson, Health Resources and Service Administration, letter to committee members, Integrated Healthcare Policy Consortium, Oct. 17, 2010, p. 2 http://www.hrsa.gov/advisorycommittees/shortage/meetings/20101013/ihpccomment.pdf Ncnmwriter (talk) 22:40, 22 March 2016 (UTC)ncnmwriter


 * I have done the following:
 * Removed the pseudoscience line from both the lead and the body of the article. The sources referenced dealt with pseudoscience generally, and not this institution particularly. Therefore it was a WP:COAT.
 * Removed a bit, already marked dubious, in the academic programs section as it was a similar digression into naturopathic medicine and not content about the college.
 * Left the part of the criticism section where the source and the content dealt with NCNM in particular, although I have significantly shorted it and changed wording per WP:NPOV, and to more accurately reflect what the source actually says.


 * I am not, however, adding much of the requested content, as it is similarly a WP:COAT about general topics like herbalism and naturopathy and not information about this institution, which is the subject of the article. The main articles on those topics should be linked to from this related article, and that content should be incorporated there, where it is the main subject.


 * If you have any questions or comments feel free to reply here or on my talk page. Timothy Joseph Wood  22:33, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

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Disambiguation - The University of Natural Medicine - needed?
The University of Natural Medicine - is another problematic "University" - https://www.bppe.ca.gov/enforcement/actions/dec_1001497.pdf and was of, at different times, of California and New Mexico. It's an outright fraud, that's still in operation at https://www.universitynaturalmedicine.org/about/faculty/. How to proceed? RudolfoMD (talk) 04:31, 12 August 2023 (UTC)