Talk:National anthem/Archive 1

Australians & Waltzing Matilda

 * Certainly, more Australians know all the words of the latter song. ['Waltzing Matilda', compared with 'Advance Australia Fair'.]

Can anyone back that up? Certainly everyone who I went to school with either knows or learnt the words of both verses of Advance Australia Fair, but I'd be hard pressed to get passed the first verse of Waltzing Matilda... Felix the Cassowary 06:35, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

No one knows the second verse of Advance Australia Fair because it was omitted due to antiquated and somewhat anglocentric overtones in the nineteenth century composition:

When gallant Cook from Albion sail'd, To trace wide oceans o'er, True British courage bore him on, Till he landed on our shore. Then here he raised Old England's flag, The standard of the brave; With all her faults we love her still, "Brittannia rules the wave!" In joyful strains then let us sing "Advance Australia fair!"

It is the first and the third verse that we sing at official occasions. However there is no doubt that my learned friend is right in rejecting Waltzing Matilda as a national anthem. It may be a national song but its theme of a sheep thief is unworthy of the aspirations and realities of modern Australia, the greatest nation on earth. A Salardini

Untitled

 * See Talk:List of national anthems for older discussions. This talk page redirected there up until now. Shanes 22:39, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Noteworthy Hymms
I resent the fact that the autor of the article chose to enumerate some of the "notable exceptions (of brevity and musical non-relevance)". This is purely the authors opinion, and some people might find it offensive that his/her country is not noted for having a musically significant anthem (I can tell I did, and the Brazilian national anthem is magnificent both in lyrics and melody.) hi jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj'Italic text'Italic text'Italic text'Italic text'' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.165.178.250 (talk) 18:11, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Costa Rica
Just a clairification, while I somewhat disagree that Costa Rica's anthem is "indigenously rooted" (but not enough to remove it completely from that paragraph, it could be argued as such, but then it could add a lot more to that list if so), I just moved it outside the brackets, as the way it was worded:

Japan (whose lyrics are the oldest anthem lyrics in the world, Costa Rica Kimigayo)

was gramatically incorrect, "Kimigayo" is the name of the Japanese anthem, which is why it is in the brackets next ot Japan, Costa Rica makes no sense there gramatically.--Canuckguy 12:47, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Add types of anthems??
I am wondering whether I should post a bit of information that I feel would be a big piece of information to the page, but since I'm still a new Wikipedian (and because of some questions that I'll address later), I want to ask before I post (better safe than sorry, eh?)

During the course of my years studying national anthems, I've noticed that many anthems can be grouped into one of five (or six) categories. I have the results of this research published on my page about national anthems (a direct link to the findings in question) and I feel it would add to this information greatly, but I have a couple of concerns, namely, even though it's the result of research and published (if you count a web page as "published"), they are terms I came up with and originated and, to the best of my knowledge, aren't used anywhere else (though I believe they should be!) Second of all, would it be seen as a conflict of interest if I put that on the page (or edited that information), seeing as how I am the originator of the research?

--Canuckguy 17:58, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

National Anthem Project
I think that Aotearoa's recent addition of the "National Anthem Project"certainly definitely belongs in Wikipedia, but I also feel that this page might not be the best for it, perhaps better belonging to the Star Spangled Banner page, or maybe a separate article on its own, rather than this page on anthems in general. Anyone else agree? --Canuckguy 19:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed; it's not a project about national anthems in general, just the one in particular. I say go ahead. SigPig 06:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. Decided to create a new page, as The Star-Spangled Banner page already had a redlink to a page waiting to be created. (Bit of a disappointment, as I was saving my very first created Wikipedia page for something else (non-anthem related), but at least I got my feet wet with this. ) --Canuckguy 01:48, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Spanish version of Star Spangled Banner
I have posted a little bit about the new contriversial U.S. National Anthem in spanish. Could someone please further the information. - This is a current event as well.


 * It is quite noteworthy and a current event, and, imho, does belong in Wikipedia ... but not on this page. This page is about national anthems in general, not just one anthem.  The Star Spangled Banner page has some information on it already (which is the best place to have a small mention of it.  The main page of Nuestro Himno has been created and provides lots of information about the rerecording.  IMHO, this is where all information on this event belongs, not on this page. --Canuckguy 19:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... Knowing the history behind "O, Canada", where a great set of lyrics in French was tastefully translated into English, and being a native Spanish speaker... imnsho, "Nuestro Himno" does not belong here... Demf 13:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

When Anthems are Sung
To be added to the "When Anthems are Sung" topic: after a hard night of drinking can be added. In Ireland, the National Anthem is sung each night as the pub closes. Strange but true.


 * Well, don't know if it can be added or not, especially as this just seems to be an Irish quirk. (Although, considering my love of anthems, I'm sure I could start singing the national anthem after I've had a few in me, especially of Guinness.  And in perfect Irish, despite my not otherwise being able to speak a word of it!  :) ) --Canuckguy 00:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Cuba's La Bayamesa
I'm not Cuban, and obviously I'll have to believe the urban legend given the few details I have. La Bayamesa, the national anthem of Cuba, sounds awfully close to a few bars of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's variations on a theme by Antonio Salieri, a piece that was played on the movie "Amadeus". I've heard that composer Perucho Figueredo (is that his name?) actually based the anthem's music on this piece? True? Names of the Salieri and Mozart tunes? Demf 14:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Never heard this one either, but I won't discount it either. Many Latin American anthems (Cuba's as well) have either been written by European classical composers, or based it on them (more perfect examples are in El Salvador, Ecuador, and Argentina), it could have been composed just in the general "Latin American anthem style that resembles epic European classical and opera music" and have a happy conicidence on the Mozart/Salieri piece ... --Canuckguy 23:40, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I was reading about Pedro Figueredo y Cisneros, the author ("Perucho" is a nickname, a Cuban version of "Pete"), and he did base the tune on a Mozart variation of a Salieri theme, indeed. But I still don't have the tune's name. Hmm... I'll look it up...Demf 13:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Anthems with initial fanfares
Besides Cuba and Italy, who else? (BTW, Cuba's is really majestic... for some reason I think the concept of a fanfare before a major theme would be Italian, though, the Lone Ranger section of the William Tell overture comes to mind...)Demf 13:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Canada, I think. Auroranorth 06:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Canada definitely not. (And this is coming from a Canadian anthematologist, so ... )  You want to find anthems with initial fanfares, you can't go wrong by poking around the Central and South American nations' anthems, they're a dime a dozen there.  --Canuckguy 00:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say Singapore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.144.148.36 (talk) 06:22, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Nationalanthems.us?
Is the nationalanthems.us website dead? No message board comes up. Inkan1969 14:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Scratch that. The website is working now. Inkan1969 19:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Moron
Who is the moron that wrote rubbish on the top of the article???????????

In Harmonia Progressio! 05:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

-

'Indian National Anthem'

'Jana Gana Mana' - Just a thought for the National Anthem!

I have always wondered who is the 'adhinayak' and 'bharat bhagya vidhata', whose praise we are singing. I thought might be Motherland India ! Our current National Anthem 'Jana Gana Mana' is sung throughout the country. Did you know the following about our national anthem, I didn't.

To begin with, India 's national anthem, Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka, was written by Rabindranath Tagore in honour of King George V and the Queen of England when they visited India in 1919. To honour their visit.

Pandit Motilal Nehru had the five stanzas included, which are in praise of the King and Queen. (And most of us think it is in the praise of our great motherland!!!)

In the original Bengali verses only those provinces that were under British rule, i.e. Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat , Maratha etc we re mentioned. None of the princely states were recognized which are integral parts of India now Kashmir, Rajasthan, Andhra, Mysore or Kerala. Neither the Indian Ocean nor the Arabian Sea was included,(they were directly under Portuguese rule at that time.) The Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka implies that King George V is the lord of the masses and Bharata Bhagya Vidhata is 'the bestower of good fortune'. Following is a translation of the five stanzas that glorify the King: First stanza: (Indian) People wake up remembering your good name and ask for your blessings and they sing your glories. (Tava shubha naame jaage; tava shubha aashish maage, gaaye tava jaya gaatha) Second stanza: Around your throne people of all religions come and give their love and anxiously wait to hear your kind words. Third stanza: Praise to the King for being the charioteer, for leading the ancient travelers beyond misery. Fourth stanza: Drowned in the deep ignorance and suffering, poverty-stricken, unconscious country? Waiting for the wink of your eye and your mother's (the Queen's) true protection. Fifth stanza: In your compassionate plans, the sleeping Bharat ( India ) will wake up. We bow down to your feet O' Queen, and glory to Rajeshwara (the King). This whole poem does not indicate any love for the Motherland but depicts a bleak picture. When you sing Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka, whom are you glorifying? Certainly not the Motherland. Is it God? The poem does not indicate that.It is time now to understand the original purpose and the implication of this, rather than blindly sing as has been done the past fifty years.

Nehru chose the present national anthem as opposed to Vande Mataram because he thought that it would be easier for the band to play!!!

It was an absurd reason...

Wake up, it's high time! Shouldn't Vande Mataram be our National Anthem. Come Join together to put Vande Mataram as our National Anthem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daeswar (talk • contribs) 12:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC) I would like to add here that if Vande mataram was declared as Indian National Anthem, would each individual have the same feeling as we have today for Jana Gana Mana..I agree that it was created/written for someone else and not for India...but it was so appropriate and apt that it was actually considered the national anthem after all. I for one till date get tears in my eyes and goosebumps whenever I hear our national anthem..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.167.180.161 (talk) 19:14, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Multinational countries paragraph
I've improved the England example, which had non-WP language like "poses a problem" and removed the misleading Denmark example. The Faroe islands uses its own name in its anthem - not "Denmark"! The term 'mainland Denmark' didn't make sense in the line it was in. No reference to a "problem" was on the Denmark, or the Denmark national anthem, or the Faroe national anthem Wikipedia pages.

"God Save the Queen" is not always used by England in international sports - I've added this fact. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Over-simple Introduction - where is the word 'nation'? "National" refers to nation.
I have four important points:

1) I noticed Monaco is in this List of National Anthems, and that Wales has been taken out because it is has been argued that it is a '"constituent country', and not a 'country'. This is a misunderstanding of the nature of 'constituent', and of the arguments surrounding its use in Wales. Some editors are certainly arguing against the use of 'constituent' in the Wales, Scotland and England articles (based on the fact that it is not so often used, whereas 'country' is widely used) - but it is incorrect to assume that 'constituent country' and 'country' are mutually exclusive - both are used in the UK. The word 'constituent' simply explains the collective nature of the United Kingdom, and does not lessen the value of the 'constituent countries' as individual countries. So England, Wales, Scotland, and, since its creation, Northern Ireland, are all still officially countries. As collectively we are the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland', the 'United Kingdom' title usually represents us as a 'country' internationally, unless we are working alone on an individual country level - whether culturally, through national sports teams, or politically (especially since the creation of the devolved parliaments of 1998).

2) Wales has an internationally celebrated National Anthem, and so it needs to be included in this list. To Americans reading, we must always remember on Wikipedia, that a great deal of world-famous things don't penetrate America - especially regarding sport and culture - where National Anthems are important. It is no mere 'anthem' (where it is currently placed!). The fact that the city-sized state/Principality/country of Monaco is included in the list (along with France), but not Wales and England etc, shows a further inconsistency here, that compounds the initial error of removing the UK countries from the list.

Having said all that...

3) The introduction refers to 'countries', but not 'nations' - why? National Anthems are for nations are they not? National...nation. Nobody argues that Wales, Scotland etc are nations. So there shouldn't even the silly 'constituent/country' debate, as they are clearly nations anyway - and national anthems are for nations. It's the emotive word here - they are not called "country anthems".

4) The list can easily include in brackets (parentheses) any extra notes (i.e. over "God save the Queen" and the UK). So nobody needs to be confused. Certainly deleting valid National Anthems for want of some further explanation is not in the spirit of Wikipedia, as per its policy.

I am amending the introduction of National anthems to cover "nations", and then adding my own country, Wales, to the List of national anthems. Perhaps others could add Scotland etc. People will come to this list to find these national anthems, but they seem to get removed on false technicalities. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:34, 11 July 2008 (UTC) (sorry, I'm rusty and keep forgetting to sign)


 * On the List article, I've used both nation and country. These are highly emotive 'national anthems' - not 'country anthems' - for a reason. National Anthems define nationhood, whatever the political nature or 'set up'. The article should be much more flexible and manageable if we do this - it is too rigid as it stands (ie. what is/isn't technically a country?) --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign) (moved from List page)


 * The country changes to the List of national anthems have been made. --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:34, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't get your point. Monaco is an independent state. National refers to nation and nationality. The official nationality of the people of the four constituent countries of the UK is British. These articles have always used sovereign states in their lists in order to keep a standard. It should remain that way. Pureditor   03:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with Pureditor. If you want to really, really take this up, then take it to Talk:List of countries, which is where this discussion should be centralized. Gary King ( talk ) 04:01, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You have both said your piece, but many will disagree - and a consensus must be found here, as other articles are simply choked-up because of this. Is that fair? Pureditor - what you dismissively call "these articles" is here about a List of National anthems. You are simply wrong to say National anthems have to fit into sovereign lists. Somebody has made the List of national anthems redirect to List of anthems by country! 'List of National anthems' is a sub-article of National anthems - why is it redirected to something else? How did it happen? Why did it happen? A Wikipedia article has simply been stolen.

The List of Countries actually says "This includes distinct political and legal entities which are countries but are considered integral parts of a sovereign state, notably the constituent countries of the United Kingdom and the Länder of Germany." It explains that these are countries precisely because they are not in the ISO-based list - and for obvious practical reasons! Why must List of National anthems follow the ISO list? Who decreed that? Why can't a 'constituent country' be a real country too - when millions of people and examples say otherwise. Because you two say so? How about the wider world?

This is about National Anthems! Nationality is about nationhood, not which list to choose when describing countries. This isn't a platform for unionist agendas, and neither should it be one for nationalist ones. National Anthems are emotive, and are to do with nation. I believe even the National anthem article has suffered because of this. And people looking for 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' etc will be confused as to where it is. --Matt Lewis (talk) 04:42, 12 July 2008 (UTC) all these things may not be true but people wrote down what they vknew

National athem are usually sang at alot of spots events. When you first learn how to sing the first song that some people try to learn is the national athem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.162.11 (talk) 18:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

A bit late but......I don't get the argument(s) on here about calling the parts of the UK countries. They have always been countries and there is no "officially British" identity. Britain isn't a "Sovereign state" either. Its United, if they weren't different countries there wouldn't be anything to unite, just a Kingdom. Any American who wants to argue against history that's older than their country should be reminded of the fact that in many contexts the word "state" and "country" mean the same thing. Should I then go around here disputing that there's is a state made up of states? No, because that would be supremely ignorant, arrogant and go against that nations entire history. The UK is a county formed from the union of initially 2 countries (Scotland and England, which at the time included Wales). Those countries didn't cease to exist at that point, they were just unified and those countries retain separate identities AND Anthems. 17th Dec 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.190.238.246 (talk) 01:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The original concept of the American states was that they were like little sovereign nations united by a federal government. There has been significant erosion of "states' rights" over time, but there are still many things that are left up to the states and which the feds can't touch. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:00, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * So, essentially what you're saying is that each state has a sort of devolved government? That's interesting, were you just explaining though, or did you mean it as a counter argument? I was just using the U.S as an example of terminology meaning different things to different people. As for the states initially being sovereign nations, they aren't like that anymore are they? Not since the federal government has gained so much more power, yet they are still called states. Whatever their initial function the term is still used. I'm not trying to suggest that they shouldn't be called states, I'm just saying that if I were to try and argue against its use and suggest a different term, when everyone in that country understood exactly what the word meant, then it would piss a lot of Americans off. On another note Scotland has always had its own legal system and has a separate education system as well as a devolved government. Since 1999 Wales has also had government, though with significantly less power than the Scottish one. Each home nation has always had separate identities, with many from each considering themselves English/Scottish/Welsh rather than British. (I highly doubt that there are many N.Irish patriots. I think its either "British" or a United Ireland) Do the individual states have such a cultural identity that a large portion of its population prefer to be from say Ohio than the US? Are there any other sovereign states that have such strong ideas of individual nationalities with-in its borders, besides Spain (Basque country, Catalonia)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.190.238.246 (talk) 18:48, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Olympic-Version Anthems
Is there a specific time limit and other guidelines for the Olympic version of each country's anthem?--达伟 (talk) 12:05, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Bogurodzica
Bogurodzica is the eldest national anthem, not the dane hymn - it was used in the beggining of the XV century, and became the national anthem of Jaggiellon dynasty - And by that the hymn of Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Don't say i am polish nationalist, or that it is not national anthem, as if so, then english should not also be called so. The anthem of dynasty was de-facto hymn of the country, so this mean it was the first one. If there was some anthem before it, that you findout, then ok, i can agree it was not first, but until you prove it, this was the first national anthem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.49.42.17 (talk) 07:42, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Patriotic song redirect
This redirects here, I think it should have its own article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 21:26, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. An anthem should certainly be a patriotic song, but surely nations have more songs speaking of love of country than just their national anthem.TychaBrahe (talk) 19:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

National anthems: Quotation marks, italics, or nothing?
In the text of articles, should national anthems be in quotation marks, italicized, or plain text? Please discuss at WT:Manual of Style/Music if you care. —  AjaxSmack 19:41, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Is there any national anthem out there that doesn't use European rooted music?
Watching the FIFA Football world cup nowadays, this question comes to my mind. Of course, the modern Nation state is a modern European concept, so it's somehow logical that the world also adopted its rituals in a European manner. Nonetheless, has this been discussed by the scientific community so that we can write something about that fact? Or are there even exeptions from that rule? --JakobvS (talk) 20:04, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * There may be different ways of defining what "European rooted" means, but just off the top of my head, the Japanese anthem does not strike me as Eurocentric music.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 20:54, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Note to the last editing of Usage section about Internationale
I have just edited a little part of the Usage section, about Internationale. I have also linked "world communist movement" to the Third Internationale, so to the Comintern, even if there is another link to the Comintern suddenly after, because I thought a reader could need it: they could not seem the same thing and so it could not be plain to her that they lead to the same entry. Furthermore, it could be added a link from "socialist movement" or "world socialist movement" if you think that "world" should be added. I preferred to add a link from "socialist" to socialism. Mormegil Oct 1 2006, 11:07 UTC

Problem with Earth anthem
The Earth is neither a nation nor a state. No specific Earth anthem has been formally adopted by any government or significantly large population, which makes the Earth anthem fail the national anthem definition at the top of the article. This section should be moved to the Anthem page. --Abysmally (talk) 03:35, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
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External links modified (February 2018)
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Mention of kneeling for the national anthem?
Should there be a bit in "usage" about the protests in the US involving kneeling during the national anthem? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qualiesin (talk • contribs) 04:04, 23 February 2019 (UTC)