Talk:National awakening of Macedonia

Title
Why Sir, the title of this article is atrocious! The very name Macedonia is ambiguous! - Francis Tyers · 18:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I say, you're right! However, there is only one "national awakening" (that is start of ethnic nationalism) of any group with the name "Macedonian"/"Macedonia", so I think we're safe! I've included two disambiguation notes to make it completely clear! - Francis Tyers · 18:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, that sounds fairly reasonable, after all the Macedonians haven't had a national awakening, they are Greek, and their Macedonia is Greece. There can be only one thing referred to with "National awakening of Macedonia", and with those disambiguation notes, I must say it is quite unambiguous. - Francis Tyers · 18:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Bullshit

 * ...we don't want to monopolize the name "Macedonia" so the Greek position is unreasonable...

This is repeated again and again by FYROM nationalists and their apologists (such as Francis), but that it is articles such as this which demonstrate that that position is a pile of crap. //Dirak 18:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Please point out another National awakening of Macedonia and I will gladly disambiguate the name. As it stands the name is unambiguous as there has only been one Macedonian national awakening, and that is of the ethnic Macedonians. Please, I'd like to see another one, then we have some ambiguity. - Francis Tyers · 18:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Word games... this implies that there are grades of macedonianness with FYROM at the top and everyone else at the bottom. Macedonia is not the national homeland of only the Macedonians (FYROM variety), and everyone else are foreigners. Need I remind you that the Macedonians (FYROM variety) are a minority in the region. //Dirak 18:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree they are a minority. You've mentioned that thing about "grades" before. It didn't make sense then and it doesn't make sense now. - Francis Tyers · 18:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Why do they get to monopolize the name? You know it is controversial, you know that it is a territorial claim (if the national awakening of Macedonia only pertains to the FYRO Macedonians, then that looks like a territorial claim to me). //Dirak 18:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see how it is a territorial claim. Macedonia can mean a million (well not quite) different things, and it only means "unliberated Macedonian homeland" in a minority of crazed extremist nationalists. This article does not support their point of view. - Francis Tyers · 18:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it means a region in southeastern Europe. When you link that region to the national awakening of one ethnic group it is a territorial claim. //Dirak 18:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Did you even bother to read the disambiguation note? - Francis Tyers · 19:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Dirak, Fran says that MacedoniansFYROMvariety are superior to MacedoniansProperGreek because they have a state of their own (disregarding the fact that it is a number issue, i.e. FYROMvariety shares that country with another 34% of the population, while ProperGreek does so with another 75% rest of Greeks). NikoSilver 18:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I also like the fact that you marginalize those. I am curious, didn't you spot it in your visit there? Most I've met think that they descend from Ancient Macedonians and that Aegean Macedonia is occupied territory. There are also official sources for all that (to remind you). NikoSilver 18:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * All of the people I met on my visit agree that Alexander was more Greek than ethnic Macedonian, and none of them layed claim on him, or believed that they were descended from him. You obviously swing in the wrong circles, Niko :D - Francis Tyers · 19:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Finally, national awakening in Macedonia could regard other ethnic groups living in the region. Several incidents taking place in Macedonia constitute national awakening for Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians etc. I'm changing the name (Jesus, I'll actually have to type this). NikoSilver 19:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll dab that. - Francis Tyers · 19:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * They already have their own articles, so I've added them to the dab note. PS. Thanks for using "Republic of Macedonia" I know it will have been hard :/ - Francis Tyers · 19:07, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I do huh? I've been there 15 times (or so). I've spoken with doxens of people. Regretfully, the wrong circles comprise the majority of the population. Finally, I remind you official sources (which you dodged). So, the point is: can you provide sources for your claims that they don't? I can provide sources that they do. Finally, do you really want me to cite facts that constitute national awakening for Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians etc in Macedonia (region)?? What exactly do we dispute here? (PS. I didn't use RoM. M was pretyped and I only typed Ro and hit enter! :-)) NikoSilver 19:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You can't prove a negative, and I wouldn't trust the official sources. The amount of rubbish the official sources of the UK government puts out is astonishing. About the RoM, phew! :)) - Francis Tyers · 19:36, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I redirected this article to what it is supposed to mean in whichever way you put it. You can delete that other with the RoM thing and move it there. NikoSilver 19:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Please say if you think that after reading the disambiguation note if the article has any ambiguity as to what it refers to. The dab note mentions all the other national awakenings to do with Macedonia, points out that it is definitely not about Macedonia, and specifically describes it as relating to the present day ethnic Macedonians. - Francis Tyers · 19:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

National awakening of the ethnic Macedonians
This is a reasonable title, although not the ideal one. It can be stable here for a while. - Francis Tyers · 20:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)