Talk:National routes (South Africa)

Renaming 1
Should this be moved to "National roads of South Africa"? I'm not familiar with "National routes". Google hits: route ~405, routes ~224, road ~9 500, roads ~7 690. The 1st Google hit for 3 of them is the "SA National Roads Agency Limited" site. &mdash; Jeandré, 2004-11-25t19:11z, 2004-11-25t19:16z

I agree to moving it to National Roads. Unless anyone objects, I will move it now. PZFUN 20:49, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Renaming 2
I propose renaming this article to "National Roads of South Africa"; this conforms somewhat with the namings on List of roads and highways for other countries. Dewet 07:25, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree, I'll move it now. Páll 08:00, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * The above renaming, from 2005 was inaccurate, and has been reversed as per discussion below on this Talk Page. The term "National Road" has a clearly defined meaning in legislation, and is owned and maintained by the South African National Roads Agency Limited (SANRAL). A road numbered with an "N" is not necessarily a National Road. Conversely a route numbered with an "R" can, in fact, be a proclaimed National Road. Please see the following source [ http://www.nra.co.za/content/declarationA4.pdf ] for a listing of "National Roads". Park3r (talk) 08:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

N8
To my knowledge the N8 streches from Springbok to Maseru, not Upington to Maseru. --Wolfling 00:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Have to correct myself here. After some research I found a second source stating the N8 runs from Maseru to Kimberley. Ill leave the entry as it is untill I can find out a bit more. --Wolfling 11:53, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


 * According to the map on the wall behind my desk - Mapstudio RSA Provincial 16th Ed. 2006. ISBN 978-86809-638-1 - the western end is Kimberley, not Groblershoop. The route between Kimberley and Groblershoop is marked R64. It may have been extended to Groblershoop since the map was published but then we need a proper source for that. Note that the eastern end is the Maseru Bridge border post, not the city of Maseru itself - Lesotho has their own road designation system. Springbok is simply not possible as Upington to Springbok is part of the N14. Roger (talk) 09:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Your map is evidently out of date. This Road Conditions Report from SANRAL describes the N8 as running Groblershoop - Kimberley - Bloemfontein - Maseru (Bridge). (Whether we say Maseru or Maseru Bridge is immaterial to my mind, as Maseru city stretches right up to the border post.) I've added the cite to the article. - htonl (talk) 12:10, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Excellent! (Note to self: Get a new map) Roger (talk) 12:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

R26
Should the reference to the R26 not be moved to the Regional Route (South Africa) page? --Wolfling 00:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

N19 and N20
I see that there is a gap between the N18 and the proposed N21. Where are the missing national roads?--Jcw69 17:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I am not familiar with the N18 or the N21. I will look into the status of these two roads, as well as the missing ones.


 * In the days when Namibia was South West Africa, didn't the national roads of SA extend into SWA? I think the N7 continued north beyond Vioolsdrif. Perhaps the missing roads were in SWA? Koekemakranka (talk) 23:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

R60
The R60 is shown as the N15 on some recent maps. SANRAL's website says nothing about it though... Anyone? 41.247.46.157 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:49, 2 January 2010 (UTC).
 * As I recall it's mostly older maps (about 10 years old or so) that show the R60/R62 between Swellendam and Worcester as the N15. Unless they've changed the signs in the last couple of months since I drove along there, its signposted as the R60 and R62 with no mention of the N15. - htonl (talk) 16:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

"N" and "R" route designation versus proclaimed national roads
Are all roads that start with "N" proclaimed national roads, or is that merely a route numbering convention for a mix of provincial and national roads? Do all proclaimed national routes get maintained by the National Roads Agency, and if not, do they qualify as National Roads in the first place? I know for a fact that the N14 between Pretoria and Krugersdorp is maintained by the Gauteng Provincial Government, for example. Also, there are "R" roads that are maintained by the NRA. Any clarification on this matter, perhaps by emailing the NRA, etc, would make this article more accurate. Park3r (talk) 08:36, 19 January 2011 (UTC)


 * This article is about "national roads" in the sense that the term is used in ordinary conversation, not the specific legal designation. It's true that some N-roads are maintained by provincial and municipal governments, and some R-roads are maintained by SANRAL. But I don't think the average South African is aware of the difference. I would definitely agree that some discussion of the distinction would be useful in the article. - htonl (talk) 09:18, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the article title "National Routes in South Africa" would also be more correct, in this case. Park3r (talk) 11:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, although I would like to hear the opinions of other South African editors on what name seems most natural to them. - htonl (talk) 13:10, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Until definitve answers are found, it needs to be made clear that there is a lot of uncertainty about the claims made in this aricle. Park3r (talk) 14:16, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The disputed tag is just silly. "N" roads are known as National roads in South Africa. Likely the article could be expanded to say some "R" roads are administratively designated as the same class of road or vice versa. The article makes no claim over who (provincial, SANRAL etc) maintains the roads. -- Firefishy (talk) 09:52, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd be happy to go with "National Route" and "Regional Route" to refer to N- and R-roads respectively, since "national road" does clearly have a specific official definition (i.e. roads 'owned' by SANRAL). In the road articles we could certainly mention which authorities are responsible for the road. Would everyone be happy with this? - htonl (talk) 10:22, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I would prefer "National Route", along with a clear, sourced definition of the term, and a sourced description of the differences between National Roads, and National Routes. What bothers me about the article currently is that it presents a logically coherent, though wrong definition of National Roads (especially since, in the absence of clear sources, this article could be seen as more defintive than it actually is, creating a danger of wikiality).Park3r (talk) 13:22, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The categories for regional and national routes would also need to be renamed.Park3r (talk) 13:37, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Further to this, "national route" is actually the term used on AA maps and Trig Survey CD:NGI maps. - htonl (talk) 22:43, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think we should confuse the issue of who maintains the roads with what they are called and numbered, because the two are different things. Some sections of national road are not the responsibility of SANRAL (eg the N1 from Cape Town centre to Salt River is the responsibility of the city government) and some regional roads are maintained by SANRAL where the provincial government lacks the ability to do so. I don't think we should get bogged down in this, because what we're really interested in is what is signed, appears on maps etc... when driving along the N1 no-one is really bothered that part is maintained by SANRAL and part by the city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.72.129 (talk) 23:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * To some extent I agree, however it does become useful when one wants to log issues with a road, to know who maintains a particular section. Park3r (talk)

"Maintained by" field in road infoboxes
I would suggest that maybe we should drop the "maintained by" field from road infoboxes, since in most cases it's going to be really difficult to get (citable) information on who actually maintains given roads. Thoughts? - htonl (talk) 22:41, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with removing it from the infobox, for the reasons given. The information is useful though, and cited information should be in the article bodies when available. A lot of people have no idea who maintains roads, sometimes with serious repercussions, so this information can be helpful, when available. Park3r (talk) 08:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Found official definitions of the numbered routes
I've stumbled across a gold mine of information on the Department of Transport website - this document has the official definitions of all the N- and R-routes in South Africa. (Incidentally, it also confirms 100% that they are "routes" and not "roads".) - htonl (talk) 23:44, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Earlier Scheme
I added what I found in an old map book. I've seen other map books of the same vintage using that scheme. At the moment the way it is presented is ugly... I think it's relevant information though. It'd be nice to know to what extent that scheme was implemented ito of road signs. It'd also be nice to know the history regarding the changes. I know that mid to late 80's map show a reduced version of the current scheme: N1, N2, N3, N4, N5, N7 only. I also have an early 90's map that adds the N6, N8 from Bloem to Maseru, N9, N10, part of the N11, N12 (excluding Jozi to Witbank), and part of the N14 (Upington to Lichtenburg and then connecting to the N12 via Sweitzer). 197.78.129.32 (talk) 21:18, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

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