Talk:Native American religions/Archive 1

Comments
We are a group of UNC students and we are taking over this page. It is a work in progress until January for a class project. Please do not delete! Thanks!

Beth220 (talk) 17:32, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * OK first, you cannot "take over" this page. No one owns articles on Wikipedia, they are available for anyone to edit. Second, before you and your fellow students get too far along in your projects, I strongly advise you and your professor/instructor to read our guidance for school and university projects. You need to be very careful to adhere to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. – ukexpat (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I do not believe this article should begin with a diatribe. It should begin with information about the religions themselves. This is as if an article about Christianity began with the Roman persecutions. Yes they exist, and yes they are important, but if an article about religion begins petulantly, then the practitioners are made to appear childish in the eyes of this elder, and probably others as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.107.193 (talk) 13:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I absolutely agree with you; I'm going to edit it right now and try to give the article a more informative and neutral introduction. I don't know much about this, though, so I'll just salvage what's there & in the article until someone who knows more about this can write a better one or improve it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lemony123 (talk • contribs) 15:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Since this issue still hasn't entirely been dealt with, I'm going to put up an 'essay-like' flag for the article. The introduction is partly written like a personal reflection and it does still have a very defensive air about it. The other main problem with the introduction is that in most places it's either quite vague or it's describing Native American religion negatively in the sense that it says a lot about what these religions are not and not so much about what they are. It describes Native American religion by contrasting it with other religions.--BuffaloBill90 (talk) 10:53, 5 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Another issue is that the introduction makes no mention of animism. I'm adding this near the remarks about panentheism. --BuffaloBill90 (talk) 11:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

–

We must find a way to include Midewiwin in this article and Jesikaan (Shake Tent) Anishinaabe practices, and or religions. Nokeminaan (talk) 02:54, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Relationships of God, Nature, Man, the world, etc ?
...just bouncing some ideas around.... I love the info in the intro (Lead) section, but I wonder if some of it needs it's own section? See Manual of Style (lead section)

It also seems that in comparative religion, something very important is ignored or undervalued: 'the relationships between Man, God, "salvation," and Nature.For example, only in the Abrahamic religions, are those all external to each other, - God and Nature are 100% separate and outside of Man, etc. And God as master, Human as child or slave, whatever. Earth and Nature as toys from God....long list....

I'm so glad this article strongly touched on many of those relationships! I'd like to see more on those. To me they are the guts, the premises from which so much springs. (From those unflattering descriptions, it's understandable why those relationships might be undervalued by Western Thought.) I'd like to see more because those foreign concepts sound too abstract or woo-woo and are not punching through my stubborn fog of preconceptions.

It has always seemed fascinating to me that while the Americas had more than 50 unrelated languages, (wow!!) the Native American religions seem to resemble each other and the Eastern Religions more than the Abrahamic religions which seem to be the oddball in the world regarding those relationships. Because the Western World is mostly of the Abrahamic religions, a common understandable prejudice is that all the world's religions are the same, only the terms and details differ. Studying World Religion in college I used to think that, even wrote a paper on it, but now I don't think so. Thoughts? Should these be emphasized more in the article? How? --68.127.87.182 (talk) 21:09, 20 July 2011 (UTC)Doug Bashford

One thing I cannot comprehend in this article; you are coloring American Indian Spirituality with western, Christian religious paints. The two, in practice, could not be more diverse. You do not sound as if you not had any contact with any American Indian Tribal Councils. I would think no better place to find out what Indian people are like is to visit & speak with them; the Spirituality is greatly an oral tradition and anything printed in a book, leaves much of it out because there are no words at times when it comes to Creator God. Judeo-Christianity thought having separating themselves from Nature, doesn't know what to make of American Indians don't separate themselves from Nature or set themselves above the Earth, Grandfather or the Great Mystery. Earth is no toy and such comments are highly insulting.

And I am truly sorry but there are no Biblical connections with the Peoples of North America, Central America, and South America. The Lost Tribes will surface when they are supposed to,not before.

American Indian Spirituality is a way of Life. You walk with the Earth rather than trodding all over Her. It's about not taking more than you need from Nature as you're a part of it: also replenishing what you've taken. Indians don't worship the Sun, this is the oldest misconception I have found besides canabalism. To Indians, the Sun and it's brightness they looked upon it in wonder because to them it is an emblem of the Great Mystery and also how unknowable it is; that we don't really know what it is because one cannot "quantify & "categorize" God. Nor can you quantify & categorize American Indians. The cultures, Spirituality, social mores are so completely different from the religion & culture that its all foreign; perhaps if you spent some time with several tribes rather than getting all your source material from books, papers and the internet. -- From Rain Wolf§

Better Organization Needed
I think the article needs to be better organize. Right now as it sits is a hodge podge of different information and its abit confusing. I think it should be organized in an alpahbet order and the tribes that practiced the religion should be listed beside it. "Plains Indian" is not a tribe. There are numerous Plains Indian tribes each with thier own religion. Keep in mind "Peyote Religion" is not really a single religion either. Various different tribes may use peyote and each tribe has their own seperate religious beliefs and practices. We need to becareful of such sweeping generalizations.

Henry123ifa (talk) 21:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)Henry123ifaHenry123ifa (talk) 21:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The Plains Tribes were great horsemen and often get grouped together because they are distantly related as well and their Spirituality is all very much alike. About the Native American Church, I think you may have some misconceptions. It was started by Wowoka when he was shown a Vision that the whites would be under the grass and the buffalo herds would be back and they could live as they did before. That was NOT the interpretation of his Vision! His interpretation was that whites would return to their roots, at one time, in each country the settlers came from, there was farming (dream language is highly symbolic). Those who heard Wowoka's words wanted it right then and didn't get it; few had patience. Because he was looking, like Black Elk, to many generations ahead when whites will need help from the Indian people to balance with the Earth. It was then, the old Peace Chiefs, said that the Indians and Whites would dance a friendship dance and learn from one another.

As for the Sacrament of Grandfather Peyote and the Native American Church. Each person goes to a gathering where Grandfather Peyote opens their minds to the truths above the mundane world hides and they are shown what they need to do for The People. Grandfather Peyote is very cruel when he is disrespected. But to call this a "Peyote Religion" is akin to call Communion the "Communion Religion" or the Eucharist "The Eucharist Religion." I am sure you see how nonsensical this is. If you want to really get some knowledge, speak with some tribal councilmen and ask if you could stay with a family so you could observe American Indian Spiritual practice in action and this perhaps would give you a deeper understanding of the People because then, a true dialogue could take place where you help preserve cultures that are in danger of disappearing as if they had never existed.

§-- Rain Wolf--§ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rain BlackWolf (talk • contribs) 12:39, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

§-- Rain Wolf--§'s comments fit 10 years of experiences with Ogallala Lakota and Sicangu Lakota elders. This article now needs a lot of help. It would be good to organize it to first describe the Turtle Island (or First Nation) peoples who kept their beliefs and who still practice those beliefs. The Dineh (aka "Navajo") and the Pueblo peoples (including Zuni) and Lakotas kept their beliefs continuously without losing them, like many other natives lost theirs. This article currently completely ignores the biggest, most active peoples, who did not lose their religion or their language. When you hear "Mitakuye Oyasin" at native people's gatherings across the USA tribal gathering, you know they are using the Lakota spirituality, because the Lakota were the last peoples to go onto the res, and they and the Dineh and Pueblo peoples are the only ones who kept their language. All of the other native peoples in "America" lost their language. Without your language, the group's spirituality is lost.

This point about "American Indians" (there are NO Indians in America...  Indians are from India - because Cristobal Colon was confused, and thought he reached the East Indian Islands) losing their language is shown by native peoples saying "Mitakuye Oyasin"  ("all of my relatives" in Lakota,  or in wasichu language:  "We are all related") shows that these other non-Lakota people lost their language. A good article on native beliefs would start with the spiritualities that are alive now, and have the most people, and have been continuous.

This current article does not have any of the major groups, let alone the ones who kept their language and kept their spirituality.

LOVE is the core of the Lakota understanding of man's interactions with the Great Mysterious. It makes no sense to talk about "religion", because religion is an organization. If you want to know what "Indians" believe, you gotta live with them,  talk with the elders,  share food,  share laughs,  share work,  and then maybe they let you see a little bit.

The Wikipedia articles on religion say that "American Indians" (there are no American Indians - just people who live on this island for 1,000's of years and they are not from India) believe in animism and pantheism. They read this in some book. Talk with good elders. Elders who have earned that respect. Elders who know the stories of their grandparents and great-grandparents. When you can call someone "Grandpa" or "Grandmother", maybe they will let you see a little of what they know. You can read all about some of this in books that the elders have agreed to, like "Black Elk - The Sacred Ways of a Lakota" by Wanbli Cicala (Wallace Black Elk) or "The Lakota Way" by Joseph M. Marshall III.

If you learn a little, and not from artificial books of white-man's made-up stories, you will find that there is NO Native American RELIGIONs, there are just ways to live and ways to pray. Our lives are prayers. Our walk is our spirituality. Spirituality is who we are, as we are spirituality people - as a whole single being,  not some thing we "believe" in, or read about in some book. You cannot separate out the spirituality from a spiritual man. "Christian" go to church on Sunday morning and "think about God" for 1 hour. Red nation peoples walk with "god" and live it continuously, as natural as breathing. Everything is spirituality, meaning you cannot cut up things in little pieces of how someone lives, or how they believe, or how they act, or what is in their heart, and in their mind,  and somehow magically separate the spirituality from the man. You cannot separate it all into little pieces for you to study. There is no animism or pantheism that the white people write about for red nation peoples. "god" is not in everything.. "god"... Yaweh... is everything...  He ce tuyelo... Makpeeyeh Oyuspye Miye'yelo Mitakuye Oyasin The Good Doctor Fry (talk) 01:54, 15 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Rain Wolf and Dr. Fry: while you both have valid points about the Native experience, the reality is that most people who come to an encyclopedia do so because they do not have the resources easily available to them to know or experience the subject matter, or they wish to understand the given topic in more depth. The reality is that most people outside of Native culture cannot experientially be part of a tribe, elders, or worship. This article is not the be-all, end-all to Native religion, it is simply a tool for learning, and an attempt at understanding. My own experience with worship alongside First Nations in Oklahoma is that they indeed call themselves Indians and are Baptists. Is that typical of the whole? Of course not. Is it any less true than your representations of Native religion? No. This is why Wiki articles are created - to provide truth and learning that encompasses as much of the subject's diversity as possible, in a neutral manner, and encourage constructive additions to that goal. LovelyLillith (talk) 13:38, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

This is a good start. I believe, as many have commented, that it is a work in progress. I disagree that the main religion is Christianity. Soli58 (talk) 00:19, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Look before you revert
I just spent some time attempting a rewrite on the again-garbled lede, only to find someone had reverted all the improved references, back to bare links and even other WP articles as inline refs rather than wikification. This is a mess again, and I am reverting the changes that lost those improvements. We don't need to use the same clauses about the gov't and Christian churches in every single sentences; our readers are smarter than that. If the lede is full of needless repetition and redundancies, no one is going to read it. - Co rb ie V  ☊ 20:42, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I did not revert anything, but others might have. I have re-written the sections to include the key concept of joint coordinated efforts conducted by the Canadian Govt. and Canadian Christian churches to persecute First Nations peoples who practiced traditional ways. The previous edits completely scrubbed the coordinated joint natures of 100 years of traditional Native American persecution in both the USA and Canada, and scrubbed out Christian churches key participations. It is important to document the sort of pressure that changed Traditional Native American religious practices, as happened when Christian ministers jointly planed raids on Native villages with the US military, and when Christian Churches worked hand-in-hand with Canadian government and US government officials to set up "Indian Schools"  and to forcibly remove traditional Native children from their homes to be converted to Christianity in these jointly-operated Christian-Government schools. Readers should know how these coordinated activities fundamentally affected native american religious practices. US or Canadian government actions by themselves would not have created nearly the effects and nor as much damage that was caused by Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, and Episcopalian churches leaders and followers support and cooperation in persecuting participants of traditional Native practices, especially as ministers and priests on the various reservations saw the underground traditional services as a threat to their dominance, a threat to their authority, and competition to their efforts to build & fill their local congregation's rolls. The Good Doctor Fry (talk) 01:16, 18 May 2014 (UTC) The Good Doctor Fry (talk) 03:25, 18 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Of course you are reverting, anyone can see that. Once again, we have bare URLs as links, and total degradation of the lede. We are in full agreement about including the information about persecution, suppression, the residential schools, etc. But you have to use proper sourcing, and you have to write in a less redundant manner. You are not improving the article. The sources you keep re-adding are inadequate, such as the teacher's guidelines that are full of misinformation, completely unsourced, and not even suitable for teaching kids. I am very sorry to the other editors who have spent a lot of time fiddling with the wording, but I have to cut that stuff. "Good Doctor," this editing is getting tendentious, and if you can't collaborate on this article it's going to cause problems. - Co rb ie V  ☊ 23:19, 18 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Blogs are not WP:RS, either. Stop adding them. - Co rb ie V  ☊ 23:29, 18 May 2014 (UTC)


 * If you want to add sourced content about Christianity, do it in the Christian section, not the lede. - Co rb ie V  ☊ 23:59, 18 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Discussions should be based in facts, not by unsupported personal opinions. Corbie claims "The sources you keep re-adding are inadequate". He deleted Washington Post reports on Congressional actions,  he deleted 2 State Law journal references,  he deleted one Law Review reference, he deleted a full book reference written by one of the top recognized Native American elders - a contemporary and friend of Einstein and the Dalai Lama.   Universities in Germany and Switzerland recognized this elder as an expert in Native American religion,  but Mr. Corbie thinks not.


 * Corbie may have unwittingly deleted these previous references in his personal zeal to maintain Wiki-formats, but that sort of editing simply eviscerates content on the altar of style and form.   When a person's edits change meaning and delete fundamentally important content - like Corbie's repeated deletions about the importance of sacred sites and sacred objects to Native American religions - then Wikipedia and its readers suffer.


 * Sticking with facts: I initially used the reliable sources referenced above, (US state law journals, law reviews, Washington Post, and other respected written publications) but after Corbie personally deleted them by his repeated reverting to previous versions that fit his personal views, I stopped using those sources, as he claimed he found them inadequate.  To appease Corbie, I subsequently chose others, (less reliable in my personal view) which Corbie now also deletes and also disparages.


 * Sticking with facts: Corbie demonstrates a fundamental undereducated/under-informed and biased knowledge of Native American religious practices by deleting key factual items like his repeated removals of reference to the importance of Christian and government oppression and pressure on traditional Native practices and his repeated removals of the importance of sacred sites and sacred objects to traditional Native American religious practices.  Corbie's personal bias shows through in the inclusion of the out-dated term "Indian" in his personal versions shows a fundamental Western bias in his perspective, because "Indians" come from India - and "Indian" was coined by Cristobal Colon who thought he had reached the Indies.


 * Wikipedia's utility as a reliable source continues to suffer due to editing for form and Wiki-style, substantially removing content and substance. Corbie's continued reverts and personal edits are fine examples of destructive editing tactics that keep some Wikipedia articles at the level of 4'th grade texts - which are fine for maintaining American myths, but not appropriate for modern encyclopedae.The Good Doctor Fry (talk) 23:51, 20 May 2014 (UTC) The Good Doctor Fry (talk) 23:54, 20 May 2014 (UTC)The Good Doctor Fry (talk) 23:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * For perspective, this Talk Page header reports:

"This main page's introduction is written like a personal reflection or essay that states the Wikipedia editor's particular feelings about a topic, rather than the opinions of experts. Please help improve it by rewriting it in an encyclopedic style."


 * Facts: The personal reflection and personal essay style is what Corbie continues to revert to, especially as he deletes references the most important events of 19'th century and 20'th century traditional Native American religious experiences, because the events do not fit his understandings.


 * Facts: I referenced specific Library of Congress recordings of traditional Native American religious/spiritual songs from 3 different eras - and Corbie deleted all three Library of Congress references of official US government recordings.    Corbie's claims of inadequate sources are bogus, as he deleted them without reading them or listening to them.


 * Facts: If you listened to the traditional Lakota spiritual songs from the Library of Congress recordings, you can compare how the lyrics and themes change, as the kinds of US government and US Christian church persecutions change.   The earliest 1890's spiritual song recordings describe:  "I see the puff of dust as my bullet strikes the blue-coat's jacket."  versus the very different songs of the 1910's  and different yet again by the 1940's.


 * Facts: Corbie deleted all those references,  to make his personal case - to keep this article in the form of a personal essay.   We should keep the references to Library of Congress spiritual song recordings.  We should keep the key issues and references from state law journals and law reviews, describing 150 years of legal persecution by US government working in concert with US Christian churches.   We should keep the official original newspaper reference from the Sand Creek Massacre when Methodist Christian leaders rode out with US govt. cavalry soldiers to kill entire groups of natives to end their spiritual and cultural practices.


 * I personally spent several days digging out 3 different Library of Congress recordings references, references that quoted Christian leaders own words calling for extermination of Native Americans and their heathen spiritual practices,  printed book references of books authored by respected Native American elders,  state law journal references,  and leading newspaper references (LA times and Washington Post) -  all of which Corbie previously deleted repeatedly,   which left me with only more modest (weaker) recent references, which he now criticizes.


 * Please have Corbie un-do his reverts - and bring back the Library of Congress recordings references, and law journal references, and references and statements describing the importance of spiritual sites and spiritual objects to traditional Native American religious practices,  all things Corbie personally disapproved and personally reverted into thin air. The Good Doctor Fry (talk) 19:20, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Please post the text you would like to add, here on the talk page, along with the references you believe source it to WP:RS standards, so we can reach consensus on whether they belong in the article. I think you believe that sources and content that are still in the article were removed when they were not, or that you have me confused with another editor. - Co rb ie V  ☊ 21:20, 21 May 2014 (UTC)


 * This is certainly counter productive. Apparently on wikipedia, people who are better wikipedieans get to enforce their views on others (by removing important links) without any reversion.

```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeVeillé (talk • contribs) 21:31, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

USA is not the Americas
It is with sadnes and worry that I see how this article talks only about north american natives, who are only a small fraction of native americans. I also percive there is not quality knowledge about the subject. A low quality article overall.
 * That is what a C article means - and yet you have the time to comment about it rather the help correct it. The article is substantial, but is still missing important content or contains much irrelevant material. The article should have some references to reliable sources, but may still have significant problems or require substantial cleanup. --Smkolins (talk) 13:55, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

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This page is not really talking about Native American "Religion"
This article starts: "Native American religions are the spiritual practices of the indigenous peoples of the Americas." And then it lists "religions" which were actually created as a reaction to Europeans, or match the European idea of what "religion" should be. The idea of "religion" doesn't have any meaning for Native Americans - religion is a European, Christian idea. Native Americans have tribal groups, each with a unique language, culture, and practices. You can't just make a list of generic "religions" that appeared after contact with Europe, and call them Native American religions. Native American religion would be unique to each tribe/language group. It would describe the "spiritual traditions" of that tribe, prior to European contact, or without the European influence.Jimhoward72 (talk) 06:40, 9 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I read the page thinking it would discuss the indigenous beliefs of the Native Americans, but then it said stuff about Christianity (which isn't actually a Native American religion) and a bunch of new religious movements that are pretty far from actual indigenous religions. I think this page should be reworked a bit. HouseGecko (talk) 14:40, 26 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Your both right....we should merger some stuff from Mythologies of the indigenous peoples of the Americas.--Moxy (talk) 14:57, 26 December 2017 (UTC)


 * That sounds like a great idea, I didn't notice that page before. It also depends on how you define religion, mythology - all these are European categories.Jimhoward72 (talk) 23:08, 27 December 2017 (UTC)


 * While this page has a good bit of information that would find one place or another in a well-crafted article on Native American Religions (yes, it should be plural), this page is so poorly put together that I doubt mere editing can salvage it. I would think a complete rewrite is needed.  The pre-Columbian spiritual beliefs and practices of each people-group known to scholarly anthropology should begin the article (after a brief general overview of the article's subject matter).  Only after that should the European influence and interaction of the 17th to 19th centuries be treated, followed by the modern issues of the 20th and 21st centuries.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scoopczar (talk • contribs) 19:33, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Waashat Religion
I placed a 'rewrite' template in the same-named |section in the subject page. Reasoning is: I would also like to point to the section Spokane people, which contains additional information. When the section here is rewritten, then the section in Spokane people could be reworked to only present a short link and summary. Tomdo08 (talk) 20:41, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It is unclear what are different versions of the faith, and what are simply different names.
 * Change over time appears to be mostly disregarded.
 * Important elements are not explained (At least some are covered in the references.).

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Requested move 28 September 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus, WP:PLURAL is applicable. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 19:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Native American religion → Native American religions – Per WP:PLURAL, which says to use a plural title or articles on groups or classes of specific things; and per WP:CONSISTENT, for consistency with similar article titles such as Traditional African religions, Abrahamic religions, Indian religions, Iranian religions, Eastern religions, and World religions. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:14, 28 September 2022 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support. The article already leads with "Native American religions", plus the singular form might wrongly suggest that there is only one Native American religion. ╠╣uw [ talk ] 18:39, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. Agree with applying that aspect of WP:PLURAL and many other existing similar-ish religion articles. Skynxnex (talk) 20:29, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support - Should be plural per arguments above. Netherzone (talk) 16:33, 4 October 2022 (UTC)