Talk:Native cuisine of Hawaii

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 September 2021 and 15 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tnpowell.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:28, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Questions
Which is a better picture of poi? Candleabracadabra (talk) 17:22, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Poi gallery
I realize the photos are abundant. I am planning to make a gallery for some of the poi images. I believe the staple also deserves more coverage and possibly a subsection in the article body. Candleabracadabra (talk) 17:27, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

There is also this lovely poi photo, although a bit grainy. Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:58, 17 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Way too many photos. This is not the Poi article. Cut them way back, please.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  23:00, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

24 images in a 22 kB article is unprecedented and without any basis in policy or guideline. WP:NOT might be helpful here. If this continues, I recommend moving this back to draft space or to a sandbox and putting it through the AfC process. Viriditas (talk) 01:12, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Additions
Something about the overthrow of the Kingdom, the U.S. military presence, and tourism as they related to culinary issues and cuisine would be good to add. Also more on the connections to religion, cosmology and traditional events. Candleabracadabra (talk) 22:55, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your first sentence. This article should focus on the cuisine of Hawaii before Captain Cook arrived. Subsequent fusion cuisine developments should be covered in Cuisine of Hawaii. As for religion, cosmology and traditional events, this coverage should be limited to how those factors affected the food supply and its preparation.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  22:59, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I understand your point User:Cullen and I agree to an extent, but native cuisine did not end with the arrival of Europeans. Much of it has been adapted and integrated and even revolutionized in Hawaii Regional Cuisine, for example. Just reading about Native Hawaiian cuisine as if it is some fixed entity that existed in the past is disingenous. Like any cuisine is changed, adapted, modernized, and adjusted with the times. Roy's was started by a native Hawaiian. So the removal of all the content related to western contact, settlement, immigration, and the plantation economy is misguided. Cuisine is never fixed in time. Even the core native cuisine items were in fact imported (taro from which poi (food) is made is not indigenous to Hawaii). I think we should be careful about idealizing or mythologizing. Candleabracadabra (talk) 00:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * "Native Hawaiian cuisine" refers specifically to the pre-contact diet of Native Hawaiians before 1778. It does not refer to the cuisines of Europeans, Americans, missionaries, whalers, ethnic immigrants or the local food of Hawaii or to Hawaii Regional Cuisines.  The sources are very clear about this.  If you can't abide by the sources and you continue this original research, this entire article should be moved back to draft space or to your sandbox.  I hope this makes sense. If it doesn't, another option is to move this article to Ancient Hawaiian cuisine.  You appear to be arguing that because Native Hawaiians still exist as a people, they still have a specific cuisine. However, that cuisine is called "local food", which began sometime around 1930, and is a blend of Native Hawaiian, European, American, missionary, whalers, and ethnic groups from Asia.  Therefore, your claim that this is "Native Hawaiian" is at odds with the sources.  The sources use the term "Ancient Hawaiian food" and "Hawaiian food" to specifically refer to the Polynesian, pre-contact diet before first contact with Europeans in 1778.  That there are Native Hawaiians today is true, and if you want to discuss their contemporary food practices in a section of the parent ethnic group article, great, do the research and find the sources.  However, you are not doing that.  You are using my sources from an article about the cuisine of Hawaii to refer to Native Hawaiian cuisine in a way that the sources do not do.  All you've done is forked the cuisine article over here, changed the name, and forced a scope into it that it doesn't have.  This is wrong, and it needs to stop. Viriditas (talk) 01:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * "Native Hawaiian cuisine" refers specifically to the pre-contact diet of Native Hawaiians before 1778." Source(s) please? Candleabracadabra (talk) 04:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Um, the sources are the ones you copy and pasted here without reading. You can't just create an article by copypasting from another article without actually knowing what you are writing about.  Those sources are about the pre-contact diet of Native Hawaiians.  Yet, you would have us believe this article is about the contemporary diet of Native Hawaiians?  Where are those sources?  Just one will do please.  And when I say sources, I mean reliable, not some personal website you are getting ready to show me.  Please. Viriditas (talk) 11:10, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The article Hawaiian Food Culture The Evolution and Effects of Local Food is an article entirely about the evolution of the Native Hawaiian diet and how immigration and outside influences have impacted it and led to an obesity epidemic. I'm having trouble including a link to it so I'm afraid you will have to Google it. I know I'm wasting my time and you will dismiss this too. Hopefully at some point a sensible admin or greater community involvement can put a stop to your ridiculous disruptions. Candleabracadabra (talk) 17:14, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Candleabracadabra, after specifically telling you not to show me a personal website in your reply, you actually replied with a personal website. Do you think this kind of willful intransigence is helpful?  We have WP:RS for a reason.  The site you shared is a user generated content site.  It is not a reliable source.  Nevertheless, for the sake of your argument (and only that), I will treat it as a reliable source to refute your central point.  The article you cite is about the dietary health of Native Hawaiians.  As I have repeatedly informed you, there are good sources about the health impacts of diet on Native Hawaiians.  If this is what you are trying to write about, then I will support it, but you must understand that this topic is not called "Native Hawaiian cuisine" nor "Native cuisine of Hawaii", it is first and foremost the "Culture of Native Hawaiians", with an emphasis on Race and health and Indigenous health.  This is not a "food" topic, it is a topic for nutrition.  Please understand the difference.  If you want to write about nutrition, you do not fork an article about cuisine in Hawaii.  While we can certainly discuss nutrition in such an article (and I would highly encourage it), please don't confuse the two subjects. Viriditas (talk) 19:40, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Moved to draft space
I've moved this copypasted pastiche to draft space as it wasn't ready for mainspace. A few points to remember:


 * There is nothing to split from the cuisine of Hawaii article. Splitting occurs when we have too much content and some must be moved elsewhere.  That is not the situation here.  There is nothing to remove from the parent topic.
 * What was recommended is for an editor to take up the task of expanding the subject, spinning out the topic into a new daughter article. This involves an editor who is willing and interested to research and write about the cuisine of Native Hawaiian and to give it an expanded scope and treatment in a larger space.  This means expanding what we already have, not moving it to another article and adding more copypaste from other articles.  Writing means, doing the research, reading the books and scholarly papers, and doing the hard work.  It does not mean taking what we already have and duplicating it over and over again.  That's not how this works.
 * You basically duplicated the entire cuisine of Hawaii article here. Since that's a completely different topic, it makes no sense to talk about ethnic and local cuisine here.  If you don't know what the cuisine of Native Hawaii entails, then do the research.  It does not mean any food that anyone of Native Hawaiian ethnicity eats.  It has a specific, pre-contact definition and scope.
 * When you copied the content, you also copied the sources without adding the actual references. As a result,  nobody can easily verify the content.  Of course, I can, since I'm the one that went to the library and found the books and cited them in the original article.  You will have to add each full source to this article, otherwise it will get moved back to draft/sandbox space again.  You can't just keep copying material without doing the hard work.  You will need to add each single full reference to this article.  Don't expect others to cleanup after you, especially when other editors did the actual research and footwork you refuse to do.
 * Per the MOS, please do not surround text with multiple images. Candleabracadabra, you've been reminded of this many times now.

Keep this in draft space until you've done the necessary work. This will involve serious research on your part. It will not involve copying and pasting material from already existing articles. Viriditas (talk) 04:09, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Culture of the Native Hawaiians
There is a stub called Culture of the Native Hawaiians waiting to be developed. If you are truly interested in writing about the current diet of Native Hawaiians today, this is where the information would go. Viriditas (talk) 01:40, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Move
Any objections to moving this article back to Native Hawaiian cuisine, it is at this awkward name because of all the moves from article to draft, project, and userspace. A bunch of redirects were created, which prevented it from being moved back to the original, less cumbersome, title. --kelapstick(bainuu) 11:53, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

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