Talk:Natural Law Party

The Maharishi
The article speaks of "the Maharishi" quite often, and only in a late paragraph is it mentioned that this is Maharishi Manesh Yogi. I feel this article obfuscates the party's connection to him and his religious movement - but then again, so does the Natural Law party itself. In their self-presentation they don't say a word about M.M.Y or TM, and in their eyes they only promote "field tested science" in politics. Make of it what yo will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.1.73.1 (talk) 07:17, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Old comments
Have the NLP been elected to anything, anywhere, ever? I know they haven't ever won an elected office in Australia. --Robert Merkel 23:39 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * According to this page, Lon L. Itson was elected Constable of Goodsprings, Nevada, United States in 2002. - Plutor 13:38, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * (What happens when one is a registered voter under a party that has formally disbanded? What does that disenfranchisement end up meaning in terms of their voting prerogatives and the kinds of ballots they recieve?) - Tenmiles 05:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

POV Tag added
I've added a POV tag to this page. The article as currently stands is pretty egregiously POV and even seems to mock the subject, particularly the second paragraph. Claims about the "real purpose" of the party, putting "party" itself in quote marks, and numerous other aspects of this article are extremely POV and unencyclopedic. I don't know enough about the Natural Law Party to seriously improve the article myself, but I do know enough to tell the article's in bad, bad shape. Jcb9 21:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Natural Law Party Dead in the US
The last Paragraphunder the US Section makes it sound like the NL Party is gone in all states, but Im lookinga t my Michigan Ballot, and the have Canaidates for most major offices. Is this article wrong, or is the Mich NLP something seperate?

CNN.com listed the Natural Law party in their party key for the 2006 US midterm elections. Clearly someone at CNN beleived the party still had merit.



New templates
I added "main" and "navigation" templates Tanaats 01:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Moved material from TM page to here
Per discussion on Transcendental Meditation page, I've moved NLP-related material here and merged it into the article. Tanaats 18:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Merger needed
This article should be merged with Natural Law Party (United States). I vote to keep the other article's title, since there are other Natural Law parties, e.g., Natural Law Party of Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.222.133 (talk) 14:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Why do you think they should be merged? This article contains information about the Natural Law Parties in the U.K., Ireland, and Australia. Doesn't seem like it would make sense to have that information in the article titled Natural Law Party (United States). TimidGuy (talk) 15:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This article is about the more general topic/article on the Natural Law Party.If anything a merger would have to go the other way around, that is, US NLP as part of the larger article. Since there seems to be no need to merge that article into this one, the US article stands on its own, probably no merger is needed.(olive (talk) 18:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC))

Did you bother to read the lead? This article starts US-centric, and the bulk of its content is that. If this is to be an international article, then snip the lead and merge it with the US article, and write a proper international lead here. Otherwise, why not give every national NLP its own article or stub? I'd vote for the latter. In that case you'd want to merge the US-centric stuff with the US article turn this into a disambiguation page linking to a bunch of stubs (e.g., Socialist Equality Party). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.222.133 (talk) 04:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Joe the Plumber
Can we add the fact that the now famous Joe the Plumber is a registered member of the NLP? It was all over the news (although I'm not quite sure why) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.96.47 (talk) 22:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've seen that reported in blogs but not in the national media. If it could be verified via a reliable source, seems like the proper venue would be the Wikipedia article about him. TimidGuy (talk) 15:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


 * As mentioned above this should probably be verified as per a reliable source. Even so its not notable in terms of the party, but there is a an article on Joe the plumber to which this might be added once a reference is found.(olive (talk) 14:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-AksCtneQw he talks about it directly in this press conference on MSNBC. WOuld that be sufficient? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.96.47 (talk) 05:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No. YouTube is so far down the ladder of reliability that whenever someone adds a link to support it, I know the statement is in dire need ot excising - it is that unreliable. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  04:07, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * its fucking shown on msnbc what the fuck more do you want? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.133.232 (talk • contribs)
 * Well, firstly, you might ease up on the cuss words - they burn my delicate, fucking ears. Secondly, take a deep breath and realize that Wikipedia isn't FoxNews, MSNBC, CNN or your grandpa's knee. We aren't in the business of reporting news as it happens. Ever. Allow me to repeat that basic, essential truth: EVER. We aren't in a rush to report it, and we sure as heck don't use crappy references to provide topical info. If it is of notable value, a news source that can be cited will be cited. YouTube, what you heard in between Michael Bolton and Yanni songs, or what you saw while imbibing a frothy beverage at your local watering hole isn't citable.
 * Maybe next time, open with the MSNBC citation, anon - it aleviates the need for you to get all frustrated and lose your temper along with a lot of my good faith. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  04:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * okay, now that you've proven how witty you can be on a wikipedia talk page, tell me how the fuck you expect that that video is somehow fake? I fucking saw the thing live with my own fucking eyes, you piece of shit. tell me, mr. witty, how does one go about citing a video news report is a recording of that video isn't enough? thats what I fucking thought. get back to making people laugh on wikipedia with your shitty pop culture fuck references. FUCK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.133.232 (talk • contribs)
 * I did not suggest that the video is fake, anon. I stated that it isn't a reliable source. If you have prowled YouTube for any length of time, you are fully aware how videos come and go with alarming frequency. As this is an encyclopedia, the sources we prefer to use are ones with a bit more a lasting quality to them. Also, with the level of skill in some digital fakes, I am not sure we could evaluate the material as being real. Now, if someone were to talk about that on the news or whatnot, and it was cited somewhere, then we could use that.
 * And thanks for calling me witty. Maybe if you concentrate more on seeking the knowledge you seem to desperately require to continue editing here without being blocked, you won't need to lash out at someone who is clearly being more polite to you than would be normally warranted. As I suggested in my post to your usertalk page, calm down before you start writing checks you simply cannot cash. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  05:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge NLP of Canada, Quebec, and NZ
There isn't much content in any of the above. Let's merge them all into this article. There is no manifesto, and the NZ article seems to be the only one with a manifesto, so it would work well. Any thoughts? Ohconfucius (talk) 03:20, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) I support this merger.-- — Kbob • Talk  • 16:34, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) Me too.Fladrif (talk) 19:36, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

There is also the Natural Law Party (Taiwan), Natural Law Party of Israel-- — Kbob • Talk  • 19:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Merge baby, MERGE!. --BwB (talk) 21:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There are actually three Canada articles, the work of an editor interested in Canadian politics. Natural Law Party (Taiwan) has already been merged here. I suggest merging the remaining smaller articles here, and consider a separate proposal for merging the Canadian articles into one. So the article to merge here would be:
 * Natural Law Party of New Zealand
 * Natural Law Party of Israel
 * I also suggest we move most of the material on the US party out of this article and into the US article, leaving a shorter summary.   Will Beback    talk    21:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, good idea.-- — Kbob • Talk  • 22:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've completed the merge as outlined above and also made some organizational changes. There are many more affiliated parties that the article mentioned.   Will Beback    talk    14:09, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

UK Citations
I'm not sure how to reference them, but the citations requested for the UK section of the article are addressed at http://www.natural-law-party.org.uk/UKmanifesto/law4.htm for what it's worth. 87.114.189.145 (talk) 22:37, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Is blog source ok in EL?
A recent addition to the EL section is a blog. OK to keep this?
 * 1999 Irish Election Leaflet from Natural Law Pary candidate John Burns --BwB (talk) 21:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It appears to simply be a photocopy of some campaign literature. Is the concern that the images have been modified, or that it's a copyright violation, or?   Will Beback    talk    21:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * All of the above - is it a reliable source to use in Wiki? --BwB (talk) 12:30, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * On the issue of reliability, it's hard to fake material like this and I don't think anyone has a cause to do so. The text appears consistent with other NLP materials I've seen.   Will Beback    talk    21:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * So you think it OK to leave this link in the EL Section? --BwB (talk) 10:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * We could go either way. I think it adds value, but we could also find reasons to remove it.   Will Beback    talk    11:24, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * OK in honor of Mr. John Burns, we will leave this EL link. --BwB (talk) 11:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Netherlands
An anon added this unsourced material. I checked the websites of the provincial house and senate. Neither one includes a member of this party. Unfortunately, the editor didn't indicate which office the NLP member occupies. I suppose it could be dog catcher. In any case, since an effort to source this has been unsuccessful I'll remove it shortly if no sources are added.  Will Beback   talk    01:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 *  Also, in the Netherlands in the province of Flevoland, the NLP has had a candidate in office since around 1993 or so.

I've done further investigation. The name of the party is Natuurwetpartij Flevoland. They disbanded in 2007. Their minutes are still online. I can't find any reference to a member being in office, but it's a lot of text to digest.  Will Beback   talk    01:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

One of the leading members, Jacques Uijen, is a leader of other TM-related organizations, including president of the Dutch Maharishi Heaven on Earth Development Company and " chairman of the board of the International Council of Maharishi Vedic Universities".   Will Beback    talk    01:57, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Other members included "Jan M.J. Storms", Theo Tromp, etc.   Will Beback    talk    02:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Parking Text and Source
I just realized that the source for the text I inserted yesterday is a student newspaper so I have removed the text and am parking it here. Other editors may wish to re-add the text and put a citation needed tag or just wait until better sources are found. I am OK either way. Here is the text and source I have removed:
 * The party leader was John Burns who was one of nine Natural Law Party candidates in the General Election of 1997. In addition, there were four candidates in the European elections of 1999. Burns campaign promises included calling on NATO to stop the bombing in Yugoslavia and instead deploy 7000 yogic flyers to the region to create positive vibrations, and to end half of all disease using Maharishi Vedic Approach to Health. The five European candidates who ran were able to attract almost 7000 votes.  However, after that election, the party ceased to field candidates in Ireland. Times Online, University Times, It Could be Worse: The Craziest Parties...., Feb 23 2011-- — Keithbob •  Talk  • 15:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Student newspapers, especially established ones at large universities, are reliable sources. I see no reason to think this newspaper, which is connected to the venerable Trinity College, Dublin and was named "Irish Student Newspaper of the Year 2010", shouldn't be used for uncontroversial material.  Will Beback   talk    22:27, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So, what's our conclusion? The RSN posting was perhaps too vague to be definitive in this regard. Since the underlying assertions aren't contested, I'll restore this unless there's further objection.   Will Beback    talk    08:21, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes it seems to be a good source.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 17:06, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Philosophical Tradition of Natural Law
There is nothing in this article that links the NLP with the long tradition of natural law in the west - not even to say that there is no connection, although it seems to me that the core ideas of the two are very similar. Should something be added in? Any comments from editors? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oxford73 (talk • contribs) 15:01, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have something discussing these points that is reliably sourced, then please post a draft here and we can decide if it can go into the article. --BweeB (talk) 17:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The "natural law" this party referred to is not necessarily the same "natural law" commonly referred to in the West.   Will Beback    talk    20:04, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Well the thing that is a little strange with this is that I don't think the NLP makes any claims to be influenced by the long natural law tradition in the west but there is a striking similarity with some of the core ideas and even more so if one looks at the work of Pierre Hadot. I will have a little think about something brief & I will post a draft here. This will be the first time I have posted a test draft on a talk page. I guess it is the same as posting on the actual article. Oxford73 (talk) 21:08, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That'd be great. Just make sure the sources refer to this party, so as to avoid original research.   Will Beback    talk    21:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't know if it merits its own small section or should just be slotted in but here goes:


 * Although the Natural Law Party does not acknowledge any connection with the Natural Law tradition of the West there are striking similarities. Both assume that we live in a normative universe; that an action is right in so far as it is in accord with natural law and that an action is wrong in so far as it violates natural law; and that a good society is one that functions in accord with nature. A key difference is that it in traditional natural law theory it is the use of reason that enables a person to act in accord with natural law whereas the Natural Law Party claims it is the unfoldment of human potential through the use of Transcendental Meditation and other methods derived from the Vedic tradition of India. Recent interpretations of the Stoico-Platonic tradition by French philosopher Pierre Hadot note that the ancient Greek meaning of philosophy is not the same as in the modern era where it is understood in terms of an academic discipline. For the ancient Greeks it was a way of life that included spiritual exercises such as meditation as an integral part of living the good life.

Note I have not added any references to Natural Law Party docs. Should I have? The other references were all easily available. 92.29.91.148 (talk) 10:31, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for drafting that. However it looks like none of the sources refer to the Natural Law Party itself. That implies that the connections being made between different features were drawn by yourself rather than by a published source. If so, the material would not be appropriate based on one of Wikipedia's core policies, no original research. That requires we only report what others have written, but not our personal knowledge (however vast) or our personal conclusions (however well-founded). Some of this material might be good for "Natural Law", but I don't think it's suitable for this article because none of the sources refer to its topic, a political party.   Will Beback    talk    11:07, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I am pretty sure I can find Natural Law Patry sources as I am sure one of their manifesto's came though my letterbox in the 90's at election time and is filed away somewhere and I think there are sources in the writing of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Give me a bit more time and I will dig those out. Oxford73 (talk) 13:11, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The NLP put out a famous manifesto in Canada at considerable cost. I've heard that a at least a few people kept them because of their novelty. If you have a copy it'd be a service to history to scan and post it somewhere.
 * In any case, we're here to summarize what reliable sources say about the NLP. Sources which don't mention the NLP are out of place. Unfortunately, I haven't found significant sources comparing the party's vision of natural law to the western concept. However I have found some quotations which put it in a religious or spiritual context. The quote I recall is "Natural Law is God's Will". I believe that harkens back to the Vedic, pre-Hindu era which the Maharishi regarded as a Golden Age and which the party sought to restore. After failing to find electoral success in conventional politics the Maharishi's followers created a country of their own, the monarchical Global Country of World Peace.
 * There are still many online sources from the movement which mention Natural Law and from which one can infer aspects of the concept.
 * The knowledge of Vedic Music—Gandharva Veda—is located in the ancient Vedic Literature and in the oral tradition of Vedic families of India, who for countless ages have preserved this knowledge in its completeness. It is scientific, authentic, and reliable, because it is a revelation of the most fundamental level of Nature’s intelligence, the Unified Field of Natural Law*—the common basis of all streams of knowledge, where the holistic value of Natural Law and specific values of Natural Law function in unison.
 * The Unified Field of Natural Law discovered by modern science has been brought to light by Maharishi as the Unified Field of Consciousness, which is vibrancy of Supreme Intelligence, expressing itself in the forms and phenomena of the universe throughout all eternity of time and space.
 * The purpose of Sthapatya Ved is to maximize the positive effects and eliminate the negative ones, to bring the occupants of the building more in tune with natural law. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the founder of the Transcendental Meditation movement, (the US branch of Transcendental Meditation is headquartered in Fairfield) is reviving the knowledge of Sthapatya Ved. This revived Sthapatya Ved is called Maharishi Sthapatya Ved.
 * His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi this week called on the world press to examine the layout of all government buildings in their countries. A proper entrance to the east will bring harmony and success to the government, Maharishi said, but an improper entrance to the south or west will be the unseen cause of a great deal of governmental problems, unrest, and failures. [..] For this reason, Maharishi also called on government leaders to abandon all improperly designed buildings—as if an earthquake had hit the buildings. "These buildings should be immediately rebuilt with a proper layout and orientation to the rising sun in the east, according to the principles of the Vedic knowledge of architecture in harmony with Natural Law—Sthapatya Veda or Vastu Vidya," Maharishi said. [..]  Maharishi emphasised that his recommendations are based not on manmade architectural principles but rather on eternal Natural Law—the Constitution of the Universe—which administers the infinite diversity of the universe with perfect order. "What we are saying has absolute authority—that means it is true for all times, in every place, and for everyone," Maharishi said.
 * Maharishi inaugurates the World Government of the Age of Enlightenment with sovereignty in the domain of consciousness and authority in the invincible power of Natural Law, to purify world consciousness and guide the destiny of mankind. [..] Maharishi’s Year of Natural Law: Maharishi establishes the Vedic Principles and Programmes for bringing life in accord with Natural Law—the Will of God. [..] Maharishi introduces the knowledge of Natural Law for perfection in every profession to create ‘Heaven Builders’. [..] Maharishi brings to light the Constitution of the Universe, which governs the infinite diversity of the universe with perfect order so that the nourishing power of Natural Law will support and enrich every national administration in our world family. Maharishi’s Supreme Political Science for problem-free government inspires the formation of the Natural Law Party. [..]  Maharishi inaugurates Global Administration through Natural Law with twelve Time-Zone Capitals to establish problem-free administration that mirrors administration through Natural Law, which governs the infinite diversity of the universe with perfect order. ª Maharishi’s theme of problem-free administration based on the total knowledge of Natural Law— Veda—the Constitution of the Universe, the field of Total Knowledge, is Vedic Knowledge made available to everyone through Maharishi’s Vedic Education; Vedic Health Care; Vedic Administration; Vedic Economy; Vedic Management; Vedic Defence; Vedic Law, Justice, and Rehabilitation; Vedic Architecture; and Vedic Agriculture. [..] Maharishi designs the Perfect Man Course to raise the individual to higher levels of evolution in the direction of perfection, on the basis of the practical knowledge of total Natural Law—the knowledge of his own Self—Åtmå—Veda—the Constitution of the Universe—the supreme administering intelligence of the universe. [..] Maharishi Vedic City is founded in Iowa, USA, to be a model of ideal city life, with its constitution based on the Constitution of the Universe, Total Natural Law, the Veda. [..] On the auspicious Guru Purnima Day, 13 July 2003, Maharishi offers to every government to train their administrators to engage in their administrative policies and programmes the intelligence and energy of total Natural Law—the Light of God—the Will of God—which governs the universe with perfect order.
 * And so on.   Will Beback    talk    19:42, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of sourced material
It's not clear why this edit was reverted. In the edit summary, the reason given was that the information was unsourced. But it was sourced to a document that's already used as a source several times elsewhere in the article. I'm not necessarily arguing that the material be included, but simply eager to understand the rationale for its removal. TimidGuy (talk) 10:35, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure either. Maybe post a note on the users talk page, so he can join the discussion here. -- — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 21:35, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

NLP Image
Does this image mean anything to the subject of this article, or is it some user creation? 117Avenue (talk) 03:48, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * A search in Google Images suggests that the image was a logo. TimidGuy (talk) 10:22, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * But the "new seed, new crop" text that was incorporated seems to have been added by the WP editor. TimidGuy (talk) 11:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Founding
Why does the article claim the party was founded in the USA? The UK branch was founded in March 1992, whereas the USA branch was founded a month later in April 1992 [according to the UK section and the article "Natural Law Party (United States)"]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.158.179 (talk) 19:42, 5 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Good point. Perhaps the idea originated in the US but was first legally documented in the UK. This bears more research. Likely the article says it was founded in the US because that's what the sources say. TimidGuy (talk) 11:29, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Here's what the sources say: It would appear that Hagelin established the USA NLP in Iowa but Britain established the party themselves that same year.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 16:14, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The Natural Law Party was founded in April 1992 by followers of the transcendental meditation [sic] movement.---Encyclopedia of American Political Parties and Elections By Larry J. Sabato, Howard R. Ernst page 241
 * NLP was founded in 1992--A Reason to Vote, By Robert Roth, page 14 and page XVVIII
 * Hagelin and 12 others founded the NLP in 1992—PBS, Hagelin Bio,
 * The NLP in Britain was formed shortly before the General Election in 1992, in which it fielded 310 candidates…--Encyclopedia of British and Irish Political Organizations: Parties, Groups ..., By Peter Barberis, John McHugh, Mike Tyldesley, page 378
 * NLP is a minor party, founded in 1992, at the Maharishi International University in Fairfield, Iowa. --Encyclopedia of American Parties, Campaigns, and Elections--By William C. Binning, Larry Eugene Esterly, Paul A. Sracic, page 289
 * .....the NLP which was formed in the UK in 1992. New Religions, Christoper Partridge, page 184


 * This somewhat primary source gives some context:
 * March 18, 1992, a new political party was formed in Great Britain................. Subsequently the NLP was established in the USA, Germany Austria, France, Croatia............--Science of Being and Art of Living, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, page xxxiii
 * --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 16:24, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

✅--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 22:32, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

NLP update
A lot of good info here in this article. Not sure its a reliable source though. It might qualify as a blog written by an expert. Thoughts anyone?--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#085;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 16:43, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

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