Talk:Nauvoo Legion

Joseph Smith commands Nauvoo Legion to Carthage
I've always heard that Joseph Smith told everyone to stay away from Carthage, Is there any source for Joseph Smith making such a request? On "Joseph Smith the Prophet" by Truman G. Madsen he says that Joseph Smith when going to Carthage, he met the Nauvoo legion and disarmed them at the request of the Governer and then went to Carthage. The State arms were then taken by the state militia to Carthage. Why would Joseph Smith call for an un-armed militia to come to Carthage?- In Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. It says that when martial law was declared the legion was called out to protect Nauvoo, NOT to goto Carthage.

I have removed the following paragraph because some of it doesn't seem consistent

"In the morning of the last day of Joseph Smith's life, June 27, 1844, he sent an order to Johnathan Dunham, major general of the Nauvoo Legion. Smith requested that Dunham immediately bring troops to the Carthage Jail where Smith was imprisoned.  Wishing to avoid confrontation with state troops, and a possible siege on Nauvoo itself, Dunham refused to obey the orders. Smith was assassinated by a mob attacking the jail that evening."

1870 Ghost Dance ??
The Article Ghost Dance seems to imply that Ghost Dance proper didn't start until 1889. What gives? -- 85.179.175.225 21:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

"Former members of Legion" misleading, so...
I edited it to say that the elements of Iron County's existing command structure took the extra-legal actions of (/formed a renegade mob that perpetrated) the Mountain Meadows Massacre. --Justmeherenow 05:09, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

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Proposed split into two articles
I propose splitting this article into the following two articles:


 * Nauvoo Legion - Covering what is mostly the first half of this article.
 * Utah Territorial Militia - Covering the second half of this article, from the arrival to Utah and forming the Deseret Militia to the dissolution and reconstitution as the Utah National Guard.

These are my reasons for the split:
 * This article is growing longer, and there is a LOT of information missing on both periods. It is becoming unwieldy.
 * Some branches of the Latter Day Saints draw their heritage from the Legion in Nauvoo but do NOT see the Nauvoo Legion in Utah as part of their cultural heritage.
 * The Utah Territorial Militia is notable enough to deserve an article in its own right.
 * The Utah Territorial Militia took its name from the Nauvoo Legion (after 1852), but it was not exactly the same. They did not have the same leadership, organization, funding, chain of command as each other.
 * There were Latter Day Saint militias both before, in between and after that have their own articles that were logical successors of each other. I also propose we create an article "series" covering all Latter Day Saint militias. Zions Camp -> Danites -> Nauvoo Legion -> Mormon Battalion -> Utah Territorial Militia . Pending any objections I will begin to make the changes. Epachamo (talk) 21:01, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Question: are Nauvoo Legion and Utah Territorial Militia separate entities with more or less the same role? Or is it the same entity with a new name? The Banner  talk 21:07, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Good question. In important ways, they were separate entities. the Nauvoo Legion was a city militia in Illinois, The which reported to the Governor of Illinois, similar to how county militias of the time functioned. It was on the same echelon level as a county militia. The Utah Territorial Militia was formed first for defense of the territory of Utah and outlying areas. They reported to the federal government. Their role was very different. The name for the Utah Territorial Militia was taken in homage to the earlier military unit. An analogy might be the USS Bonhomme Richard, which is a named used for different US Navy ships, but they share the same name in respect to earlier ships. Several important people were members of both, however I'd argue that the same is true for the Danite, Mormon Battalion and Zion's Camp militias. It's not a question that Mormon Battalion and Nauvoo Legion are separate entities, or Zion's Camp and the Nauvoo Legion are separate entities even though it could be argued that they are more similar to each other than the Nauvoo Legion and the Utah Territorial Militia. Epachamo (talk) 21:41, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, that was just a bit unclear. Would it be useful to add a navigation template to the different articles to connect them? In principle, I have no objection to a split. The Banner  talk 22:00, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes! I do think that it would be useful to add a navigation template to the different articles to connect them. That is what was awkwardly trying to get at when I wrote, "I also propose we create an article 'series' covering all Latter Day Saint militias." Even if we don't end up splitting this article, I do think we should create some kind of navigation template. Epachamo (talk) 23:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I second this, the LDS church has a surprisingly large amount of military units and militias.  LuxembourgLover (talk) 23:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * From what I undertsand the Nauvoo Legion was the name of multiple miltary units including the Utah Milita. I think we should just reword the article. LuxembourgLover (talk) 18:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Different military units have different articles, even when they have the same name. For example: USS Bonhomme Richard. Epachamo (talk) 23:05, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I second this proposal. The Utah Territorial Militia grew out of the Nauvoo Legion, but it is my opinion the periods in Mormon history are distinct enough to warrant their own pages. AIJFMM (talk) 21:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright, I completed the initial split, but we encountered an issue. Was the territorial militia the same force that opposed the US during the Utah War, or was it an entirely separate militia? Was there State of Deseret militia? LuxembourgLover (talk) 03:10, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The territorial militia that opposed the US during the Utah War was absolutely the same, i.e. the Utah Territorial Militia. It was also the same force as the State of Deseret militia, even though the State of Deseret militia did not formally adopt the name "Nauvoo Legion". Epachamo (talk) 05:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Acording to this edit the Deseret Militia and Utah Militia where diffrent units. LuxembourgLover (talk) 01:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Also I would like bring up how according to session boxes there are 5 units that followed each other for protection of the mormons.
 * Armies of Israel 1834
 * Danites 1838-1840 (? maybe went to 1870s)
 * Nauvoo Legion 1840–1845 (? maybe went until 1852)
 * Utah Territorial Militia 1852–1887
 * Utah National Guard 1887-
 * This makes it more complicated so I think there should be a disambiguation page or a general page for mormon military units. LuxembourgLover (talk) 03:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think this is great! I assume by 'Armies of Israel' you are referring to Zion's Camp? If so, I would refer to it as "Zion's Camp" instead of Armies of Israel, as that is the commonly used title, even if it wasn't the official title. I'd also add the Mormon Battalion, which was a unit between the Nauvoo Legion and the Utah Territorial Militia. I'm not sure I'd add the Utah National Guard to this list as it was never really fell under the theodemocratic umbrella of the church. The Nauvoo Legion (number 3 on your list) was formally disbanded in 1845 by the State of Illinois. There was a State of Deseret militia, but I'd have to find a reliable secondary source to get the dates on it. If anyone can find more information, I think we should add the militia on Beaver Island that belonged to James Strang. I need to find a better secondary source, but it appears the Caldwell County Militia during the 1838 Mormon War might be added to the list as well, as it was entirely led by Latter Day Saints. I think we should wait and see how the navigation template turns out before we do a disambiguation page. In my mind at least it seems like the navigation template should clear things up. Epachamo (talk) 05:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We should add Lot Smith Cavalry Company to the list as well. Epachamo (talk) 05:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think we should create a artical or at least a disambiguation page called Latter Day Saint militias or Latter Day Saint military units. The Mormon Battalion and Lot Smith Calvery Company where in federal service but where entirely made up of latter day saints. LuxembourgLover (talk) 01:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * No, that is unnecessary, a navigation template will do the trick to connect the several units. The Banner  talk 09:58, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I have nominated Utah Territorial Militia for speedy deletion due to copyvio. The Banner  talk 10:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, I will try agin. The source I used is a government website so I think it is perfect. I will make sure to reword it correctly. LuxembourgLover (talk) 13:30, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Copy-and-paste from a copyright protected page is not okay. How many times have I told you already that you must up your game and present better work? The Banner  talk 14:05, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * You should try a third time. This time correctly sourced please. The Banner  talk 14:41, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Please give me an example of how it is not correctly sources. LuxembourgLover (talk) 15:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * And Danite also need investigation as the article is for more then 93% equal to https://raycountymuseum.org/home/history/battle-of-crooked-river/. Have to check who had the info first. (It would not be the first time that outside websites copy from WP) The Banner  talk 10:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Clear, they copied from us. Even a 2013 version is 93.5% copyvio from that external website, but that website is there only from 2020. The Banner  talk 11:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well good news is that I had nothing to do with that. LuxembourgLover (talk) 13:31, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright well we may have a problem, according to this source as well as this source, the Nauvoo Legion and Utah Territorial Milita where two diffrent miltiary units in Utah, active at the same time. LuxembourgLover (talk) 13:36, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
 * For this article I think we are good, since this one is for the Illinois period. If you read closely, I think they are talking about the same military unit though. Epachamo (talk) 00:54, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Introduction
I think the introduction should be rewored or completely redone. Here is a example: LuxembourgLover (talk) 18:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)


 * The Nauvoo Legion, a collective term for various military units within the U.S. armed forces, functioned from 1841 to 1887. Initially established on February 4, 1841, it served as the city militia for Nauvoo, Illinois, until January 1845. Evolving over time, it took on diverse roles, including serving as the Mormon militia for the LDS Church, the militia for the State of Deseret, and later rejoining federal service as the Utah Territorial Militia. LuxembourgLover (talk) 18:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We need to be careful. On Wikipedia (see WP:LDSMOS), LDS Church refers exclusively to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Brighamite branch, as it is sometimes referred to). After the death of Joseph Smith, the Latter Day Saint movement fragmented. We can't use the term "LDS Church". This is one of the reasons why I think we should split the article. Joseph Smith III was a huge fan of the Nauvoo Legion, but the Utah Territorial Militia he was not a fan of. Keeping them combined is centric to the Brighamite branch of the Latter Day Saint Movement. Epachamo (talk) 23:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think we could just use Latter Day Saints. The main branch, The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was the main owner(?) operator (?) of the units. Brigium young used the militia during the Utah War. LuxembourgLover (talk) 16:58, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This is not POV. To even say "the main branch" is pretty offensive to some people even today. I'd also argue that it is historically inaccurate to the 1850s. While TODAY you could make the argument that it is "the main branch", in 1850 there were 11,800 people in Utah. By contrast, there were around 12,000 followers of James Strang at its peak. Strangites also called themselves, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Strang's group even had a militia with cannons and guns that would drill. They even fired their cannons at would be attackers at one point. At least some of the members of Strang's group had been members of prior Latter Day Saint militias (including, for a time, the original leading General of the Nauvoo Legion, John C. Bennett) . (see book 'God has made us a kingdom': James Strang and the Midwest Mormons). Epachamo (talk) 22:09, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I assume LuxembourgLover has sources to prove his claim? The Banner  <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 23:36, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, also note the source is important for the discussion above. LuxembourgLover (talk) 02:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * As expected, the source does not say what you claim. It is also not an independent source. On the positive side, it is helpful for creating the navigation template. The Banner  <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 09:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I may be reading it wrong but in the source it says: "Provisional State of Deseret and the Territory of Utah law. True to their heritage, they called themselves the Nauvoo Legion.: Also it says "Two cavalry units of the Nauvoo Legion were given federal duty during the Civil War in 1862 to guard the mail and freight routes from Independence Rock to Salt Lake City." Am I reading it wrong? LuxembourgLover (talk) 23:02, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, sharing a heritage is not the same as being the same unit. The Banner  <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 23:52, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It was still called the Nauvoo Legion per this source. Directly from the source “A heritage of the Mormon settlers' time in Illinois, the Nauvoo Legion was designated to serve as the territorial militia in the 1851 Laws of Utah. LuxembourgLover (talk) 16:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * First Army. Same name, not identical entities. The Banner  <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 18:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, so we should clanged the introduction to say that thee Nauvoo Legion was the name of multiple military units. We should also split the articles. LuxembourgLover (talk) 22:26, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think we should change the introduction. If you were to mention the "Nauvoo Legion" without qualifier to any historian or lay person, 99 times out of 100 they would immediately think of the Nauvoo Illinois militia. Whenever the Nauvoo Legion is mentioned in scholarly literature, a qualifier is added when referring to the Utah Territorial Militia. I do think it would be appropriate at the end of this article to discuss how many members of the legion went on to serve in other Mormon Militias (Mormon Battalion, Utah Territorial Milita, Deseret Militia, Strang Militia), and it is very appropriate in the Utah Territorial Militia page to devote sentences explaining that they referred to themselves as the Nauvoo Legion. Epachamo (talk) 05:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think a split was a better idea. LuxembourgLover (talk) 16:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Legion appointments and elections
tl;dr I have a hunch there is more to this research thread, I just don't know enough to know what to look for. If you know lots about 19th century military practices and are interested, this is for you.

"On February 8, 1841, in accordance with the city charter, the Nauvoo City Council further expanded the executive power of the court martial to internally nominate officers for original commissions and promotions at a municipal level." From what I can tell the appointments and nominations process was 1) different from contemporary practice and 2) a point of criticism for why the Legion was overpowered. I don't know enough about court martial practices, 19th century militia appointments, or the Nauvoo Legion appointment process to know what to look for to know why this was controversial at the time. The brevet appointments seem standard for a militia bordering the frontier (if not bloated in the Nauvoo Legion).

Anyway, I'm setting this trail aside for now to work on other things. I'm putting the research questions "How were the Nauvoo Legion appointments and nominations different from other militias and why did that garner criticism?" out here on the talk page so if someone who knows more wants to pick it up, they can. Happy research! AIJFMM (talk) 22:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)