Talk:Navajo Nation/Archive 1

Untitled
Anyone know if there's an article on the history of the Dine people, as far as into their prehistory? --DanielCD 13:37, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

'Modern Day' and 'Cleanup Efforts' Sections
The 'Modern Day' section looks like it was copied verbatim from a Navajo Nation tourist brochure. Also the 'Cleanup Efforts' section goes so far beyond the reach of an encycolopedia with ideology and opinion that this article alone disqualifies Wikipedia from being any kind of encyclopedia. (I think Wikipedia should be sued for claiming to be an Encyclopedia. That's the definition of false advertising.)

Culture
Somebody just deleted the culture section of Navajo Nation. There was some discussion about this in the past but not recently. I agree with the deletion because more detail information about Navajo culture can be found on the Navajo people page and other Navajo catagories. The Navajo Nation page has evolved to cover the recognized political and administrative region.--Rcollman 11:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Pictures
The photos are nice, but there are far too many of them. How about reducing the number to those that directly illustrate something?

Deleted photo:



I think the photos are nice as well, but feel there should be some modern photos as well (if there are any that aren't copywrited). Right now it looks like the Dine is a tribe that no longer exists--especially with everything in black and white and sepia. I realize that if one reads the text, one learns otherwise, but I feel the encyclopedically speaking, a lot of people will look at the phostos/maps/illustrations of an article before they even decide whether they're going to read it or not. Kaibab 03:52, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Apache history/references
Moved anon contribution (see below) re Apache history/references to this page for discussion. Reference material is needed. Is this more appropriate to the Apache page?? WBardwin 02:40, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * "In Donald Rowland's study, Sonora Frontier, Juan de Anza, the second person of that name, says that since 1715, the Apaches had been continally murdering, stealing and comminting depredations of every sort, in spite of repeated attempts at conciliation. He made 8 campaigns against them, but without success because they lived in small groups of huts and it was impossible to capture more than a handfull at a time.

They inhabited a most difficult country, and yet by means of smoke signals, could transmit information across distances very quickly. By 1735, the lands south of the Gila and northward into present day Tucson, civilization was in reverse, and the spanish haciendas, cattle ranches and the rich mines were being abandoned in fear of the savages. By 1746, even with 100 soldiers garrisoned at a nearby fort, in bands ranging from 100 to 300, Apaches (Athapaskan Indians) came to harass rancho and mission. In the decade from 1775 to 1785 the Spanish government invaded Apacheria with fire and sword, but only succeeded in killing less than 300 Indians, including women and children. Conditions continued to grow worse, even after Mexican independence in 1821. In 1846, as the U. S Army was descending the Rio Grande, news of an Indian raid against a Mexican village was brought to General Stephen W. Kearney. The Mexicans had barricaded themselves in a thick walled adobe village, while Apaches drove off all their livestock, and when cornered later on by a rescue party, the Indians began killing as many cattle and goats at time permitted, then escaped into the mountains with the more manageable horses and mules. In another of their forays, they carried away 15 or 16 the prettiest young Mexican women for wives. Sometimes humans were captured to be sold, reflected in the Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo, which expressly forbade the purchase of any captives from the Indians. By 1850, the San Pedro Valley, where ranching had continued for more than a century and a half, was totally depopulated. One great ranch that had once been stocked with 40,000 cattle was completely deserted. Col. Philip St. George Cooke encounted herds of cattle that had run wild at the ruined San Bernadino Ranch near the modern city of Douglas, Arizona. He noted the great hacienda had been planned as a fortress with regular bastions, but it could not withstand the continual assault of the Indians. Lt. Wm. H. Emory in his "Military Reconnoissance" notes that a savage and uncivilized tribe, armed with bow and lance, is holding three fertile and once-flourishing states: Chihuahua, Sonora and Durango. John Bartlett, of the U. S. Boundary Survey Commission, in 1851, observed that near the house ruins among the dying orchards, peaches still ripened in abundance. The peach trees in Canyon de Chelly in Navajo land were undoubtedly brought there from these areas, suggesting a connection between the Apaches of southern Arizona and New Mexico to the Navajos of northern Arizona and New Mexico."

Recent Large Edit
That was quite a sequence of edits, with a lot of good information. However, I have a few suggestions for future edits. You removed several chunks of information without an explanation in the edit summary or on the talk page. I will not disturb your material but I will restore most of the information removed. If you have any reason why that information is inaccurate or inappropriate, please discuss it on the talk page before deleting again. It may be more appropriate, with the tone of your information oriented toward the Nation itself, to think about creating an article for the history of the Navajo people, perhaps titled Navajo (people).

It is also appropriate to list your sources on extensive edits, and indicate if any material is quoted from them. Wiki has strict rules on copyright issues. And all articles should have appropriate "links" to other articles in the Wiki to help the reader move around the system. It is customary to link only the first reference to a word or term in each article. Please use the third item in the tool bar above to create these links. Hope to see you on other sites. Look forward to working with you. WBardwin 01:02, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I created a page called Navajo people because I VERY much agree that the tone of this article is very much directed at the Navajo Nation. Personally, I was frustrated to not find the sort of information on the Navajo people in this Navajo Nation article. It's quite possible that someone would be discouraged from writing about (unique aspects of) the Navajo people's culture and structure in an article specifically about the Nation, besides the fact that not everything that goes on in a certain nation is really representative of the uniqueness of that ethnic culture. I mean, I created the Navajo people page to try to encourage people to add relevant information on the Navajo People. Specifically, I was interested in the matriarchal aspects of the Navajo people, but this sort of information was not on the Navajo Nation page (nor does it really seem relevant to a page about the Navajo Nation). Robotbeat 22:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Although my comment above dealt with material that ended up being a copyvio (see below), I still like the idea of a Navajo People article. The modern Navajo Nation is really a government organization with strong cultural overtones.  Wiki articles on other NAmerican tribes mention very little about their current tribal government.  I would advocate moving much of the history section in this article to Navajo People and devote that article to origin, history, religion and culture.   WBardwin 02:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't like the merge either -- here is my recent note to JenGod. I'll work toward two articles when I have a little more time. Does everyone agree with the content I've defined below? WBardwin 02:46, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I noticed that you merged the two articles. A couple of regular editors disagree.  Please see the discussion on the talk page of Navajo Nation.  We believe that Navajo Nation should be used as an article for the Navajo governmental agency that manages the tribes reservation and resources and that Navajo People or Navajo should be used to describe the history, culture and present day characteristics of this people.  I will not have time to revert and shuffle the articles for a couple of days.  If you have objections or comments, please leave a note on the discussion page.  WBardwin 00:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * copied cultural and historical information to Navajo people to start the distinction. That information in this article should probably just be summarized -- will try and work on that next week.  It would be particularly important to sort our long list of references to the appropriate article.  Would everyone take a look and see what belongs in which group?  Thanks.  WBardwin 19:53, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Copyright
I'm afraid that the article appears to be a copyright violation, much of it lifted from here. The source page is clearly labelled: "© 2005 Navajo Nation Washington Office. All rights reserved." Editrs need to go back in the history to the last non-copyvio version, and transfer it to Navajo Nation/Temp; then, when this article has been checked and (I suspect) deleted, the old version can be moved back to its proper place.

Sorry about this; we can't just revert, as the copyright violation would still be in the History, and Wikipedia would still be liable. --Mel Etitis ( &Mu;&epsilon;&lambda; &Epsilon;&tau;&eta;&tau;&eta;&sigmaf; ) 06:30, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

The instructions on the copyvio page say otherwise:

 Pages where the most recent edit is a copyright violation, but the previous article was not, should not be deleted. They should be reverted. The violating text will remain in the page history for archival reasons unless the copyright holder asks the Wikimedia Foundation to remove it. .

That said revert to July 27 version. Vsmith 20:41, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. Vsmith 21:01, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Ethnic group template
The ethnic group template should IMHO be removed from this article, since it deals with a political entity rather than an ethnicity -- cf Navajo people -- Himasaram 03:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

History
Shouldn't this have a little more history as oppose to current events?--L141414 reply 02:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This page (Navajo Nation) has evolved from everything about Navajo culture, to more of a focus upon the "modern" tribal government's area. The history section had a lot of cultural information which is now duplicated and expanded upon on other pages.  I copied the opening paragraph of "government" because it was a brief history of the current form of Navajo Nation government. I deleted the cultural history paragraphs.  I also added some ideas so the non-Navajo reader would understand that the Navajo methods of governance were very different from the Spanish, Mexican and United States Governments forms.   There could be a page on Navajo Indian Agents. My assumption is the current recognized Navajo Tribal government started in 1923.   I edited but left the part about the constitutional convention which would seem to be current events as L14141414 pointed out --Rcollman 11:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see Navajo people article for more information on history and culture. This article primarily focuses on the political entity and territory known as the Navajo nation.   Hope that helps.  WBardwin 05:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * More work needs to be done concerning the history of Navajo government, or at least words added that link to other places. I hope my edits will point the way for an expansion of this section. --Rcollman 11:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree...--Skiinkid 00:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Minor Change
I changed "three times refused" to "refused three times". Hope this dosent bother anyone much..--Skiinkid 00:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

u need navajo transportation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.201.115 (talk) 00:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

what happened to the "code talkers"
I come on this page to see info about the code talkers from wwII. nothing. pitiful, they seemed like such an important part of Navajo history. (question left by anon editor, User:68.2.173.18]]


 * They have their own article -- see Code talker. WBardwin 19:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Misleading image
I just removed an image of two vials of blood (one treated with an anticoagulant) that were being used to illustrate the section on citizenship. Despite the name, "blood quantum" does not actually involve drawing blood and testing it. It relates to blood only in the metaphorical sense, as one might say, "blood relative". As a result, this image was misleading, and may have caused someone who didn't click through to the blood quantum laws to think that the Navajo Nation regularly employs some sort of fancy blood test that can determine if you're a Navajo. (While I guess it might be possible to use DNA testing to determine this, the fact is that right now, no such test is used.) Sometimes, it is better to have no image than a patently incorrect one. --Ig8887 (talk) 18:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Dine College.gif
The image Image:Dine College.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:


 * Image:Navajo weaver.jpg
 * Image:Navajo flocks.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --00:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Population
The census figures are confusing. Also, what is meant by sending "a representative to the Census Board" ? Questioningly, in humility, GeorgeLouis (talk) 04:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

More information needed on inter-government interaction
This needs more about how the juxtaposition of the Navajo Nation on several U.S. states and the U.S. itself works in theory and in practice. For instance, whose laws take precedence? Do Supreme Court decisions like District of Columbia v. Heller apply to the Navajo? Does the Canyon de Chelly National Monument have the same protected status as other National Monuments? Have there been any actual cases, or is everything theoretical?

I know that in Utah, the state couldn't outright tell the Skull Valley Goshutes that they couldn't use their land to store nuclear waste; they had to proceed in other directions such as creating State Route 196 to ban (at least outside the reservation) waste transport on the reservation's access road, and then creating several other routes merely so a rail spur would have to cross them. From this incident, it would appear that the Navajo have significant autonomy, but where does it end? Can they restrict travel on the main roads? Can they dump hazardous waste such that it contaminates outside water supplies?

If there is another article that discusses this, and there are no or only minor differences with the Navajo, it would of course be better to link there. --NE2 02:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Bubonic Plague
It would be interesting for someone with current data to add information in the "Health" section about Bubonic Plague. This disease is endemic in this area. The host is the wild rodent population and the disease is transmitted to humans by fleas. A number of years ago, when I was employed in the Environmental Health field, 5-10 persons died every year from this disease on the Navajo Reservation.

Some campgrounds in this area of the Southwest having warning signs listing the symptoms, and instruct persons that if they become ill within a few weeks to be sure to tell their physician that they have been in an area where plague is endemic. Prompt treatment with the appropriate antibiotics is usually effective.

Larry E. Matthews (talk) 18:45, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Economy Refs
"The Navajo Nation spends 85 percent of its money off the reservation." Anonymous added a ref to a lenghty list of news releases; I couldn't find support, and the statement is ambiguous -- is this the people? the govt? both? Probably better to quote your source.

Also, the Dine Dev Corp appears non-notable -- needs cite demonstrating notability. --Pete Tillman (talk) 16:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Then it should be written "85% of the residents of the Navajo Nation spend their money in bordertowns off the reservation." This is a well established fact by the government and numerous mainstream news stories. News releases were not cited, they were legitimate news stories. I don;t think you tried hard enough to look. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.196.253.215 (talk) 01:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Blood quantum fraud?
I shortened this POV bit and tagged for cite. A previous editor supplied a link to http://thorpe.ou.edu/OILS/enroll.html, which is interesting but doesn't support the assertion. --Pete Tillman (talk) 17:27, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Size of Navajo Indian Reservation
In the Geography break/paragraph stands this: The land area of the Navajo Indian Reservation is 62,362.062 km² (24,078.127 sq mi). What's the origin/source of this size? --79.218.52.174 (talk) 10:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Anecdotes
I extracted that piece from 'Governenment' into a new chapter. I think that chapter should be removed competely. It does not contribute to the understanding of the Navajo Nation, ot the way the Reservation works. It only discredits certain people, which does not honor the Navajo nor the article authors, either. It's plain useless to any reader outside the Reservation. If you think it's generally useful then pls rewrite it so that it becomes clear what's the teaching behind it.