Talk:Navajo Wars

Untitled
It would be useful if commenters gave date and name --Rcollman 15:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Intro: Who, What, When

 * WIKIPEDIA: The Navajo Wars were fought during the nineteenth century between the U.S. military and many western tribes.

A RESPONSE: This is a rediculous "generalization." First: There was only ONE Navajo war that the U. S. military was involved with, and it began on Sept. 2, 1847 when "The Santa Fe Battalion started today on an expedition into the Navajo country, these Indians having violated their treaty with Col. Doniphan by their robberies of the Mexicans." (Navajo Wars, by Frank McNitt, p124). On Apr. 13, 1964 Kit Carson wrote that "since active hostitlites have ceased against the Navajos." (Kit Carson and the Indians, by Tom Dunlay, p. 306). Yes, there were some relatively peaceful interludes between 1847 and 1864, and yes the war picked up in 1863-64, but it was ONE war.

RC on WAR: if battles are wars then there were many. If a treaty concludes a war then there were many wars. If there was one attempt at subjunction of a people, then there was one war. However, I have trouble with the assumption that the war(s) started with the US military. Technically the fights between the Navajo and non-native americans started with the Spain, which were inherited by Mexico for a few years and then inherited by the US. The civilian non-native american population were often involved in fights with the Navajo both as individuals, militia, or what in contemporary america we call gangs.--Rcollman 15:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Result of wars

 * WIKIPEDIA: These wars depleted the Native Americans' numbers, divided their leadership, and drove them onto reservations, often located far from their homelands and in inhospitable climates.

A RESPONSE: This is an exagerated statement. All wars "deplete...numbers", but most of the Navajo surrendered and were not killed. The Navajo were a widely scattered tribe with no large central villages and no leader claimed control over all the Navajo. For over 300 years there were small bands that lived, raided and moved about the Western portions of present day New Mexico and Eastern portions of Arizona. The reservation that they were ordered to move to in 1863 had to be "far from their homelands" because the previous 16 years of treaties permitting them to stay around Dinetah, their homeland centered on Canyon de Chelly had not worked.

RC RESPONSE: I agree with the above. "Not worked" from both a Navajo and non-navajo perspective.

Purpose of Wars

 * WIKIPEDIA: As was often the case, the U.S. military fought the Navajos and Apaches largely for their lands.

A RESPONSE. False. The U. S. military fought the Navajos and Apache because they would not stop raiding, pillaging, and murdering people, and not "largely for their lands." [ I know, the land had been claimed by the King of Spain, and in 1846 the U. S. Flag was run up the pole in Santa Fe and Nuevo Mexico became "property" of the USA. Before that it belonged to prehistoric peoples, who were probably first "invaded" by Pueblo type people, and THEN Athabascan people from Canada (now known as Navajos and Apaches), also partially by the Ute people, an Aztecan tribe centered more in present Colorado, although origially from the gulf coast of Texas. "land ownership" is a modern concept, Geronimo did not "inherit" his father's land.]

RC RESPONSE: I agree that is a false statement. First it is a poorly written sentence. The mention of Apaches (kin to Navajo) should be deleted. The first treaty between the US Military and Indian Agents and some Navajo elders was ratified by the US Senate in 1850. I believe this treaty allowed the military to establish posts, provided the right of passage for non-navajos in return for trinkets and other tributes.

US Military who did what

 * WIKIPEDIA: The Civil War brought many soldiers to the Southwest, including General James H. Carleton, who decided to remove the Navajos and Apaches to reservations so that the lands of the Rio Grande Valley could be used for settlement and mining. Carleton enlisted the one-time friend of the Navajos, Kit Carson, to force them from their homelands through starvation.

MY RESPONSE: It was not Carelton who decided that, it was his predecessor, Col. Edward Canby. The Mescalero Apaches, whose homeland was southeastern New Mexico and Western Texas, ..."By March 1863 the majority of the Mescaleros were at Bosque Redondo (near present day Ft. Sumner, New Mexico, and) less than a hundred had taken themselves into the mountains..." (KC& Indians, Dunlay, p. 246). Carleton got the word out that all Navajo had to surrender by July 20, 1863. Many finally did, many did not and they scattered into the wilderness of Eastern Arizona.

RC RESPONSE: A agree with most of the above. And, why are we talking about the Apaches. The US Military in the Military Department of New Mexico retracted units at the start of the Civil War, 1861. Once the North started pushing the Texans out of New Mexico, the military looked at the Navajos. Canby was the Commander of the NM Department, who sent Carson and 4 divisions of NM Volunteers to Ft. Wingate. Canby also had this idea of seperating and educating the Navajo. General Carleton who commanded the California Volunteers relieved Canby in Sept 1862. It was Carleton who gave Carson the order  Carson effectively moved the Navajos around and burned crops. Navajos went to Bosque Redondo in various sized groups. In Decebmer 1863 there were 250 at Bosque Redondo. On May 10, 1864 777 Navajo arrived to swell the population to 5,182. By July there were 5,961, by October 7,634 Navajos at Bosque Redondo(if we can believe the count). While members of the Mesceloro Apache band were at Bosque Redondo first, there were never more than 500 in number. I could site many historical sources for this in addition to oral history. Above came from Gerald Thompson's, The Army and the Navajo: The Bosque Redondo Reservation Experiment 1863-1868, UofA Press 1976

Carson and the end of Wars

 * WIKIPEDIA: Carson burned the Navajos’ farms, stole their livestock, and finally destroyed the villages in their last stronghold, Canyon de Chelly. Without food or shelter to sustain them through the winter, over 3,000 Navajos surrendered and made what is called "the long walk of the Navajos" to the reservation at Fort Sumner. Hundreds of Navajos died along the way and after arriving at the fort. A few bands of Navajos held out, living in the mountains. But one by one, these bands and their leaders—Barboncito, Armijo, and finally Manuelito—were captured or surrendered and taken to the reservation.

MY RESPONSE: Kit Carson did burn "some lodges" and did  "confiscate Navajo livestock", -- calm down. There were no Navajo "villages in their last stronghold..." -- there were scattered fields and lodges. Some facts: approx, "11,612 Navajo were sent to Bosque Redondo(present day Ft. Sunner, N.Mex.). Of these 336 were officially reported to have died on the march, 220 escaped, 20 were stolen, and 148 were unaccounted for; 8846 actualy arrived according to the records." (KC & Indians, Dunlay, p. 304; quoting Frank McNitt). If you want to know what Kit Carson REALLY did "to" the Navajos during this period, you're gonna have to read two books: Navajo Roundup, and KC and the Indians are reliable and thorough, as is The Navajo Wars.

RC RESPONSE: I agree. How about a quote from Stories of the Long Walk?

And what about the Spainish and Mexicans?
RC: If we can say Navajo Wars is really a subject that should be called non-native american "Wars against the Navajos", then we need to talk about the Spanish. The Spanish contacted the Apaches and Navajo in the mid to late 1500s. The Spanish were interested in slaves and booty/tribute. There was also a religious motivation or justification for the Spainish. The Spanish introduced things into the such as sheep and horses, weaving and perhaps metal smithing which also had profound impacts upon the native american culture. After a while, the Spanish and Navajo were fighting over horses and sheep and the taking of slaves and grain. The Spanish essentially had expeditions against the Navajo from say 1600 to around 1821, when the Mexicans became independent and continued for another 30 years. From my viewpoint if these groups were not seeking slaves and tribute, they were trying to strike back at a people who they believed raided them for booty, roughly 300 years of this kind of "wars". --Rcollman 18:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

best laugh of the week
Good job, whoever deleted the thing about the Mohawk from the article. I'm moving the question about it here to unclutter the legitimate question about the spanish and mexicans.


 * Errr... the Navajo beat the MOHAWK in a large battle in 1852. Excuse me?
 * References please? Location?


 * Alan
 * 66.109.148.169 00:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I know somebody out there doesn't get it so I will explain. The Mohawk live on the other side of North America, along the St Lawrence Seaway for instance. Elinruby (talk) 06:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Navajo "warriors" did not join "renegade Apaches" during the Long Walk Period into the 1880s
I deleted the sentence which stated this as a fact. Show me a cite that is not from a newspaper or pulp novel. There were Navajo who did not go to Ft. Sumner as part of the Long Walk. I have read accounts of Navajos trading with some Apache bands but never mention of "Navajo warriors" who joined up with an Apache band. There were ties between Victorio's Mimbres band and Mariana, one of the influential Navajo leaders who lived in checkerboard area. Rcollman (talk) 22:06, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

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Why does this page need to wikified?
Why does this page need to be wikified. Based on the definition, I do not see any html in the document. Prairie Astronomer (talk) 23:35, 23 February 2020 (UTC)